davep043

You're right. 13.3b says that, in match play, if your Opponent lifts or moves your ball overhanging the hole before the "waiting time" is over, the stroke is treated as holed with the previous stroke. A concession is essentially doing the same thing, so a concession cannot eliminate the opportunity for an overhanging ball to drop in that limited time frame. But that waiting time ONLY applies to a ball overhanging the hole.

From 4.3a, to quote the relevant rules:

You're right, its one of the few exceptions to Rule 9.4b. 9.4a, first bullet point, covers the issue of replacing it, and 9.4b, Exception 1 covers the concern about a penalty. There ARE a few situations where you're allowed to lift or move a ball in play.

The exception for the Teeing Area is simple, the ball is not In Play until a stroke has been made to put it in play. You can do lots of stuff to a ball not in play, including practicing putting and chipping between play of two holes, you can kick it, juggle it, throw it in a lake. Most Rules apply only when the ball is actually in play. And the Putting Green is a very special place in the rules, you can do lots of things there that you're not allowed to do elsewhere. This wasn't always the case, you weren't allowed to lift and clean a ball on the green, or to repair pitch marks in your line, until about 1960. Until 2019, you WERE penalized if you accidentally caused your ball to move on the green. These changes came about, in general, because the advances in agronomy and maintenance practices changed the conditions on the greens, becoming softer (with irrigation systems) and smoother and faster (mowers, soil types, etc.). If you cannot determine whether natural forces of the player caused a ball to move, it seems unreasonable to penalize the player, so that penalty was removed.

You may be right, if someone only wants to play "casual" golf, it might seem tedious to learn the rules governing the game. Just like learning the rules of baseball or football (either kind) if you play those sports casually. But then to come to a Rules forum and complain that the rules are tedious may not be the best course of action. Just ignore the rules and play as you like.

Marking methods are not universal. In my area, OB can be marked with white stakes, a white line, or sometimes a definition on the Notice to Players like "the inside edge of all fences". But we also see white lines used to mark GUR.

See rule 17.1a, and rule 2.2c.

Ah yes, the rules need more complications and exceptions, and a new definition. If you move it, you must replace it, EXCEPT if you move it with a Practice Swing (define this) you play it as it lies. But if you move it with your club any other time, you replace it. Nah, its fine the way it is.

so write us a rule, at what distance or what amount of improvement does the wrong place penalty kick in. make it something that can be interpreted consistently by every golfer.

Perhaps you haven't read the Rule: "If the ball might have moved but this is not known or virtually certain, it is treated as not having moved and must be played as it lies." If its moved as little as you say, can you really determine (with 95% certainty or better) that it actually HAS moved? Maybe the Definition of Moved can clear this up: "When a ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so)" A millionth of a millimeter? Really? If you can tell that it has moved, replace it. If you can't tell for sure, it hasn't Moved. As for two strokes being too much, the Penalty is intended to be greater than the potential advantage gained. IF you REPLACE a moved ball, you haven't gained any advantage, so one stroke is enough. If it has moved, you MIGHT have an advantage that could lead to a stroke improvement, so two strokes is merited. The Rules don't try to ascertain how great an advantage you gained and assess fractional strokes. The Rules aren't going to define how far the movement has to be to go from one stroke to two, if you move it and don't replace it, you get two.

Sorry, but your example was Fourball match play. You used the phrase "A and B against C and D" which means either Foursomes or Fourball, but not necessarily a Team competition unless that Match is one of a number of matches. And reading the rest of your question, it seemed obvious that you meant Fourball, because in Foursomes a General Penalty is applied against the Side, not against one of the Partners. Fourball was the specific term you needed to get to Rule 23 dealing with Fourball play. For my personal interest, I did a search for "better ball penalty" in the USGA rules website, since many people use the term "better ball" for Fourball play. The first item that came up was https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2024/05/rules-guide-four-ball.html At least that might have got you to Rule 23.

Absolutely correct, and the use of the right terms would have made a search for the rule a lot easier for @szaino. But many people never learn the correct terminology.

For better or worse, this depends on the player's intent, and on his integrity. The definition of Stroke is clear enough: "But a stroke has not been made if the player: ..... Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke."

This is when you should ask that person to show you the Rule. There are 4 specific exceptions to the one-stroke penalty mentioned in Rule 9.4, accidentally moving it with a practice swing isn't one of them.

Look in Rule 23.9 for Fourball Match Play. As you say, generally its only the player involved who gets the General Penalty, his score cannot count for the Side on that Hole. There are a few situations where the GP is applied to the Side:

And in Match Play, you can require a Opponent to mark and lift their ball. Or you can choose not to do so, if you think their ball might help you. Playing or being a referee for match play is quite different from Stroke play.

I agree. I'm thinking more of a case where the "other" ball is already in motion, with little or no time to get permission, so the player lifting that ball isn't acting as an "agent" of the ball's owner. Its an interesting inconsistency in the Rules. On one hand, a ball may be lifted by the Player or someone he authorizes (and a Partner, and the Caddie in some circumstances), but there's no Penalty in Stroke Play for lifting another Player's ball without authorization.

Well they CAN go back, it just costs 1 PS under 9.4b/4. I think we saw Bryson do this at the US Open, lifted his ball from a crosswalk (GUR) thinking he could drop one place, a Referee identified a different place as his Nearest Point of Complete Relief. He didn't really like that area, wanted to replace the ball, and was told he'd have a 1-stroke penalty if he did. So he ended up taking free relief in the appropriate location.

As @iacas says, the Player CAN do this zig-zag dropping, but is not required to do so. He may actually prefer to remain at about the same distance from the hole, rather than working his way away from it. The Clarification offers a simple and (comparatively) quick way to resolve the situation.

This brings another thing to mind, in Stroke Play you can lift another Player's ball without marking it. As far as you are concerned, any other ball is a Moveable Obstruction, and may be moved per 15.2a(1). From the standpoint of the Player whose ball you've moved, you are an Outside Influence, so he should replace the ball per 9.6. 14.2 tells us that either you (the person who lifted it) or he (the Player) must replace the ball.

I haven't done that with the ping pong situation, but I HAVE done it combining Penalty Area relief with subsequent 16.1 relief for a cart path. I do a lot of junior events, and with those I usually do the full two steps as a teaching tool.

This is simple, ANY General Penalty immediately ends the hole in Match Play. Advice, Wrong Place, Wrong Ball, setting down an object to aim at, just to name a few.

We should add, there's no Penalty for lifting your ball, but there IS a penalty if you don't mark the spot before you lift it.

One doesn't need to "argue", one must merely follow the Rules, see 14.2d(1)

Not this, but this.... "I'm allowed to (5) Firmly place the feet in taking a stance, including a reasonable amount of digging in with the feet in sand or loose soil." Even if doing so tests conditions, even if doing so improves the CATS, digging in is specifically allowed under 8.1b(5) and 12.2b(2).