how to report a guy cheating his handicap?

oregongolf · March 25, 2014

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395772696' post='8948471']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1395772418' post='8948431']
Id call him out publicly....

EVERY single time I laid eyes on him...

When he talks.... Call him a cheater...

When he's gearing up for a Tournament... Tell everyone you come across that he's a cheater...

Make a very quiet, yet very loud statement.... Don't be brash... Don't be loud or mean...

Just let him and everyone else know that you are his official advocate for playing by the rules and establishing his proper handicap...
[/quote]

:lol: Yeah, right. I can see those that whine about this or that calling out someone f2f....NOT. For the most part, people talk tough online, but f2f, don't have the right stuff.
[/quote]

Or is there anything good that generally comes out of doing something like this. Like I said above, most sandbaggers in my experience have actually been confronted before and don't care. They're like the golf version of an internet troll.

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395772860' post='8948493']
[quote name='HoosierHacker89' timestamp='1395772575' post='8948457']
I am working on gathering empirical evidence as in tournament scores that would help dictate this.
[/quote]

Any reasonable tournament committee is already aware of his scores vs handicap. Providing scores is NOT proof he's cheating.
[/quote]

That's probably only likely if he's playing in tournaments at the club he's keeping his handicap at.

I organize and run a bunch of tournaments every year. I understand why people are passionate and want to protect the field.

Tee2Green85 · March 25, 2014

Play with him, keep the score, take the scorecard, compare it to what he enters into the system....its the only way of proving this. Sounds like to much work though.

Pepperturbo · March 25, 2014

[quote name='oregongolf' timestamp='1395772942' post='8948503']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395772696' post='8948471']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1395772418' post='8948431']
Id call him out publicly....

EVERY single time I laid eyes on him...

When he talks.... Call him a cheater...

When he's gearing up for a Tournament... Tell everyone you come across that he's a cheater...

Make a very quiet, yet very loud statement.... Don't be brash... Don't be loud or mean...

Just let him and everyone else know that you are his official advocate for playing by the rules and establishing his proper handicap...
[/quote]

:lol: Yeah, right. I can see those that whine about this or that calling out someone f2f....NOT. For the most part, people talk tough online, but f2f, don't have the right stuff.
[/quote]

Or is there anything good that generally comes out of doing something like this. Like I said above, most sandbaggers in my experience have actually been confronted before and don't care. They're like the golf version of an internet troll.
[/quote]

Exactly... nothing good. "If?" the tournament / handicap committee thinks there is cause, yet no actual proof for expulsion, all they can do is adjust his handicap for some undetermined amount of time; that's it. And anyone that makes it a mission of sorts to get consequences for someone cheating is putting a label on their back, whether they want to see it or not.

HoosierHacker89 · March 25, 2014

I am not a person that complains about much of anything. Golf is a game i love to play, and i just play with my buddies all the time. We just have a few beer and enjoy the game getting outside and away from work for a few days. I am not passionate about pursuing this if it is going to get me no where. I just don't like it when people cheat, and i was checking to see if there was anything that can be done. It sounds like this is basically just the way it is, and even getting scores compared to his handicap will not get me very far. It is a shame that the game of honor and integrity can be so tainted, but i guess this is life. I will email the handicap committee chairman and see what his suggestion about a cheating member is. If there is nothing that can be done i will just drop the case. I appreciate the advice.

this is not an issue that affects me personally at all. I rarely ever play in any tournaments at all. I just was seeing if anyone had experience with this issue before and what they did. I appreciate it.

mark m · March 25, 2014

[quote name='HoosierHacker89' timestamp='1395769268' post='8947989']
we have a member at my club that has a 12.4 handicap and everyone there knows he is a 0 at worst. I would really like to report this to the USGA, but i don't know how to do it. I am looking for advice how to make sure this actually happen. It is out of control, and i am tired to hearing him wine and complain about not getting a fair advantage all the time.
[/quote]

In this post you say "we have a member at my club"

In other posts it sounds like he has his handicap through another club.

Which is it?

HoosierHacker89 · March 25, 2014

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1395773967' post='8948631']
[quote name='HoosierHacker89' timestamp='1395769268' post='8947989']
we have a member at my club that has a 12.4 handicap and everyone there knows he is a 0 at worst. I would really like to report this to the USGA, but i don't know how to do it. I am looking for advice how to make sure this actually happen. It is out of control, and i am tired to hearing him wine and complain about not getting a fair advantage all the time.
[/quote]

In this post you say "we have a member at my club"

In other posts it sounds like he has his handicap through another club.

Which is it?
[/quote]

This is exactly right. He is a member at my club, and according to the website where his handicap is posted his index is at another course in my area.

Pepperturbo · March 25, 2014

[quote name='HoosierHacker89' timestamp='1395773500' post='8948591']
I am not a person that complains about much of anything. Golf is a game i love to play, and i just play with my buddies all the time. We just have a few beer and enjoy the game getting outside and away from work for a few days. I am not passionate about pursuing this if it is going to get me no where. I just don't like it when people cheat, and i was checking to see if there was anything that can be done. It sounds like this is basically just the way it is, and even getting scores compared to his handicap will not get me very far. It is a shame that the game of honor and integrity can be so tainted, but i guess this is life. I will email the handicap committee chairman and see what his suggestion about a cheating member is. If there is nothing that can be done i will just drop the case. I appreciate the advice.

this is not an issue that affects me personally at all. I rarely ever play in any tournaments at all. I just was seeing if anyone had experience with this issue before and what they did. I appreciate it.
[/quote]

You're not entered in the same tournaments as the alleged cheater? How do you know he's cheating? That puts a whole new light on your involvement, and increases the likelihood of the tournament or handicap committee ignoring you. Hearsay is nothing more than a busybodies gossip...

mark m · March 25, 2014

It sounds like he is a "multi-member" - i.e., a member of more than one golf club.

If this is the case, he should have [b]one[/b] GHIN number where all his scores are combined and his Handicap Index is calculated. This is very common. So first, check that this is the case. (He should NOT have 2 Handicap Indexes.)

What is he doing to maintain a high handicap?
Not posting scores?
Posting erroneous scores?

If I were you I would work with my clubs handicap committee.

If you want to do something you should have [u]specific[/u] knowledge - [u]scores with dates[/u] - that should be in his current scoring record (most recent 20 scores) but are not for whatever reason. If you have that info, then something could be done. You will probably need another member to back up your facts. Failure to post scores should lead to penalty scores, or perhaps outright handicap adjustment by the committee, or handicap withdrawl for flagrant cases.

[color=#000000][size=3]An essential element of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicap%20System"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i] is the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapCommittee"]Handicap Committee[/url][/i]. Each [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#golfclub"]golf club[/url][/i] or [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#authorizedgolfassociation"]authorized golf association[/url][/i] utilizing the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicap%20System"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i] must appoint a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapCommittee"]Handicap Committee[/url][/i] to ensure the integrity of each [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i] it issues. This Committee must make certain that the members comply with the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicap%20System"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i].[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]8-1. Handicap Committee Chairperson[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]The position of handicap chairperson requires a substantial amount of time and a basic knowledge of the [/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3]USGA Handicap System. The more information the handicap chairperson gives the members, the more cooperation the chairperson is likely to receive. (See Decisions [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14386#8-1/1"]8-1/1[/url] and [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14386#8-1/1.5"]8-1/1.5[/url].)[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]8-2. Duties and Responsibilities[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Handicap Committee within the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#golfclub"]golf club[/url][/i] is responsible for all aspects of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGAHandicap%20System"]USGA Handicap System[/url][/i], including the computation of each member's[i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i]. The [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapCommittee"]Handicap Committee[/url][/i] must verify that all acceptable scores are reported for handicap purposes, and that recorded scores are available for [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#peerReview"]peer review[/url][/i]. In addition, the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapCommittee"]Handicap Committee[/url][/i] has the authority to make the determination if course conditions are so poor that score posting should be suspended. If score posting is suspended for an extended period, the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#golfclub"]golf club[/url][/i] must obtain approval from its [i]authorized golf association.[/i][/size][/color]

Here is section 6-5:

[color=#000000][size=3]6-5. Player Belonging to More Than One Golf Club[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]A player who belongs to more than one [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#golfclub"]golf club[/url][/i] must do either of the following:[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](a) Register as a multi-member with the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#authorizedgolfassociation"]authorized golf association[/url][/i] or computation service, if such service is provided, so that all scores at every club will enter into the player's [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#scoringrecord"]scoring record[/url][/i] for computation; or[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3](b) Return all scores to all clubs in person, or, if the club allows, by e-mail, fax, Internet, or surface mail (See Section [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14379#5-2"]5-2[/url]), together with the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#USGACourseRating"]USGA Course Rating[/url][/i] and [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#Slope%20Rating"]Slope Rating[/url][/i], and date.[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]If a player maintains a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i] at more than one club, and the clubs do not use a networked computation service, all acceptable scores must be posted at all clubs. (See Decision [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14382#6-5/1"]6-5/1[/url].) This will result in the same[i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i] at all clubs unless there are administrative problems such as transmission problems or mailing delays. Failure to post all acceptable scores at all clubs produces a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i] that is not based on the player's best 10 differentials of the last 20 scores and consequently may not be termed a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i]. If a player has a different [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i] at different clubs, despite posting all scores at all clubs, the Committee in charge of the competition may require the player to use the lowest [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14370#HandicapIndex"]Handicap Index[/url][/i] when competing with players from more than one club. (See Decisions[url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14382#6-5/2"]6-5/2[/url] and [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14382#6-5/3"]6-5/3[/url].)[/size][/color]

JJ2210 · March 25, 2014

2 questions: How many people know he is doing this? Is he well liked?

If you're the only one who knows what's going on, it'll be tough to get anyone to cooperate with you to iron things out. If everyone at your club is aware, then just stop giving him a game. Once he realizes everyone knows he's inflating his handicap you will probably see less of him. More people on your side who can go talk to the handicap/tournament committee at your club will go a long way.

If he's well liked and no one knows this is happening, that's an uphill battle.

DavePelz4 · March 25, 2014

[quote name='HoosierHacker89' timestamp='1395774134' post='8948647']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1395773967' post='8948631']
[quote name='HoosierHacker89' timestamp='1395769268' post='8947989']
we have a member at my club that has a 12.4 handicap and everyone there knows he is a 0 at worst. I would really like to report this to the USGA, but i don't know how to do it. I am looking for advice how to make sure this actually happen. It is out of control, and i am tired to hearing him wine and complain about not getting a fair advantage all the time.
[/quote]

In this post you say "we have a member at my club"

In other posts it sounds like he has his handicap through another club.

Which is it?
[/quote]

This is exactly right. He is a member at my club, and according to the website where his handicap is posted his index is at another course in my area.
[/quote]

Just to make sure, I post at my "club" but play 30-40 other courses regularly. Does he have two handicaps or does he just use that club as the home club for reporting?

SatelliteGuy · March 25, 2014

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395773386' post='8948581']
[quote name='oregongolf' timestamp='1395772942' post='8948503']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395772696' post='8948471']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1395772418' post='8948431']
Id call him out publicly....

EVERY single time I laid eyes on him...

When he talks.... Call him a cheater...

When he's gearing up for a Tournament... Tell everyone you come across that he's a cheater...

Make a very quiet, yet very loud statement.... Don't be brash... Don't be loud or mean...

Just let him and everyone else know that you are his official advocate for playing by the rules and establishing his proper handicap...
[/quote]

:lol: Yeah, right. I can see those that whine about this or that calling out someone f2f....NOT. For the most part, people talk tough online, but f2f, don't have the right stuff.
[/quote]

Or is there anything good that generally comes out of doing something like this. Like I said above, most sandbaggers in my experience have actually been confronted before and don't care. They're like the golf version of an internet troll.
[/quote]

Exactly... nothing good. "If?" the tournament / handicap committee thinks there is cause, yet no actual proof for expulsion, all they can do is adjust his handicap for some undetermined amount of time; that's it. And anyone that makes it a mission of sorts to get consequences for someone cheating is putting a label on their back, whether they want to see it or not.
[/quote]

This mentality is why it continues. Somewhere, somehow, the idea of calling a spade a spade became " not worth the effort " or became an instance of " what good is going to come of it "

Passive Aggressive.

Someone cheats when I'm watching and I just tell them I know they are cheating...

Since when did the label on our backs become a bad thing if you're right...

You can all stick your head in the sand if you want... I see someone sandbagging in a Tournament I play in..

I open my mouth.

Id rather someone think ill of me for being confrontational than think I'm some wuss who is afraid of the " LoudMouth " label.

From the initial post... The OP indicated " EVERYONE " knows about this Fella...

If everyone knows...

And no one does anything about it...

Shame on you.

If it's just you.... Then good luck.... It wouldn't stop me... But it would most.

Good Luck with your situation OP...

You've got my two cents.

oregongolf · March 25, 2014

That's fine... you might think that is the right thing to do, but the actual, correct thing to do is contact the handicap committee and chair involved and present them the facts.

Callign and catching someone cheating on the course is different. They're both definitely cheating, but generally only one can be dealt with after the fact...

In my experience (I don't often play in net tournaments, but I do organize lots--I do have experience protecting the field), publicly identifying sandbaggers does little to stem the problem. They'll just go find another game and bag that. In this instance, I firmly believe having them manually adjusted would be the best possible result.

Pepperturbo · March 25, 2014

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1395776862' post='8949007']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395773386' post='8948581']
[quote name='oregongolf' timestamp='1395772942' post='8948503']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1395772696' post='8948471']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1395772418' post='8948431']
Id call him out publicly....

EVERY single time I laid eyes on him...

When he talks.... Call him a cheater...

When he's gearing up for a Tournament... Tell everyone you come across that he's a cheater...

Make a very quiet, yet very loud statement.... Don't be brash... Don't be loud or mean...

Just let him and everyone else know that you are his official advocate for playing by the rules and establishing his proper handicap...
[/quote]

:lol: Yeah, right. I can see those that whine about this or that calling out someone f2f....NOT. For the most part, people talk tough online, but f2f, don't have the right stuff.
[/quote]

Or is there anything good that generally comes out of doing something like this. Like I said above, most sandbaggers in my experience have actually been confronted before and don't care. They're like the golf version of an internet troll.
[/quote]

Exactly... nothing good. "If?" the tournament / handicap committee thinks there is cause, yet no actual proof for expulsion, all they can do is adjust his handicap for some undetermined amount of time; that's it. And anyone that makes it a mission of sorts to get consequences for someone cheating is putting a label on their back, whether they want to see it or not.
[/quote]

This mentality is why it continues. Somewhere, somehow, the idea of calling a spade a spade became " not worth the effort " or became an instance of " what good is going to come of it "

Passive Aggressive.

Someone cheats when I'm watching and I just tell them I know they are cheating...

Since when did the label on our backs become a bad thing if you're right...

You can all stick your head in the sand if you want... I see someone sandbagging in a Tournament I play in..

I open my mouth.

Id rather someone think ill of me for being confrontational than think I'm some wuss who is afraid of the " LoudMouth " label.

From the initial post... The OP indicated " EVERYONE " knows about this Fella...

If everyone knows...

And no one does anything about it...

Shame on you.

If it's just you.... Then good luck.... It wouldn't stop me... But it would most.

Good Luck with your situation OP...

You've got my two cents.
[/quote]

I guess you missed the greater point. Not everyone knows, and there are simple facts you're arguing against, that make no practical sense. A non-involved person that doesn't play in tournaments with the guy has no grounds to complain. If that were not the case, than just anyone, maybe even you, could take over the lead by calling the appropriate people, to help rid our system of dirt bags. I would bet dollars to donuts though, the tournament and handicap committee would say, they can't do any thing with out solid proof, which the OP does not appear to have. Sure calling a spade a spade has worth; but f2f is not likely, least for most people. Why, because most people f2f don't have the cahones for fear of retaliation. Course internet bravado or that which comes from having the Witness Protection program to hide behind, makes for all sorts right over wrong bravado. :lol: And c'mon.. shame on you is not called for either; this is all in 3rd party context. That's my ten cents.