Leaving a ball next to hole in scramble...

[TheCityGame]

Say you're first to putt in a scramble; you leave one right next to the hole and it might help the next guy get a deflection into the hole.

 

I never seen this explicitly outlawed in a scramble rule sheet.

 

Would you consider this cheating? Just unethical? Ever seen it?

 

About the hinkiest thing I've seen in a scramble was this: we selected a ball on the green, and a player walked over the green to get his ball. As he walked back to our ball, he rolled his ball down the green from near the hole to us. I didn't like that at the time.

 

Note : these are club scrambles, not the loosey - goosey charity stuff. Groups are selected according to handicaps. There's no strings or mullies or throws or any of that. Typically 7 to 10 under wins it. It's as much on the up and up as a scramble can be.

[Newby]

If the next putt hits that ball there is a 2 stroke penalty.
Apart from any problem with 22-1
[color=#000000][size=3]In stroke play, if the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] determines that [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitors[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3], [/size][/color][color=red][size=3][b]they are disqualified[/b][/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3].[/size][/color]

[joey2aces]

Some guys I have played with in scrambles always seem to want and putt out. It's one of my biggest pet peeves...

then again, scrambles are not real golf... yet you are playing against the field so you should play by the rules of the scramble. Mark your ball and don't putt out.

[smeech8000]

Hinky scramble tactic #17:

- Applies on LOOONG second shot into par-5 hole (250+ yds)
- D player goes first... hits wedge. FAT. Huge divot.
- A, B, and C players proceed to hit driver from front edge of divot.

Witnessed this in the 2005 Buick Scramble (National Gross division @ Celebration G.C.)

[kchuckb]

[quote name='smeech8000' timestamp='1397679167' post='9106149']
Hinky scramble tactic #17:

- Applies on LOOONG second shot into par-5 hole (250+ yds)
- D player goes first... hits wedge. FAT. Huge divot.
- A, B, and C players proceed to hit driver from front edge of divot.

Witnessed this in the 2005 Buick Scramble (National Gross division @ Celebration G.C.)
[/quote]Tacky!

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='smeech8000' timestamp='1397679167' post='9106149']
Hinky scramble tactic #17:

- Applies on LOOONG second shot into par-5 hole (250+ yds)
- D player goes first... hits wedge. FAT. Huge divot.
- A, B, and C players proceed to hit driver from front edge of divot.

Witnessed this in the 2005 Buick Scramble (National Gross division @ Celebration G.C.)
[/quote]

Buncha limp-sticks if they need driver from 250. Start handing out skirts.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1397688829' post='9107175']
[quote name='smeech8000' timestamp='1397679167' post='9106149']
Hinky scramble tactic #17:

- Applies on LOOONG second shot into par-5 hole (250+ yds)
- D player goes first... hits wedge. FAT. Huge divot.
- A, B, and C players proceed to hit driver from front edge of divot.

Witnessed this in the 2005 Buick Scramble (National Gross division @ Celebration G.C.)
[/quote]

Buncha limp-sticks if they need driver from 250. Start handing out skirts.
[/quote]

Oh yeah? Oh yeah?

You just wait. I'm coming back here after I think of an absolutely crushing response, and then you'll be sorry!

[OBon18]

Around here everyone plays like this:

If chipping from off the green and your ball goes off a teammates, it's good.

If putting on the green and your ball hit's a teammates it does NOT count, but we don't give a penalty.

Might just be around here, as I'm not sure on the ruling for it, if there is one.

[Newby]

[quote name='CoryN' timestamp='1397695555' post='9107891']
Around here everyone plays like this:

If chipping from off the green and your ball goes off a teammates, it's good.

If putting on the green and your ball hit's a teammates it does NOT count, but we don't give a penalty.

Might just be around here, as I'm not sure on the ruling for it, if there is one.
[/quote]

If you're still talking scrambles, there aren't any rules.

For Handicap returns, there are. 19 & 22.

[QEight]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1397718421' post='9109987']
[quote name='CoryN' timestamp='1397695555' post='9107891']
Around here everyone plays like this:

If chipping from off the green and your ball goes off a teammates, it's good.

If putting on the green and your ball hit's a teammates it does NOT count, but we don't give a penalty.

Might just be around here, as I'm not sure on the ruling for it, if there is one.
[/quote]

If you're still talking scrambles, there aren't any rules.
[/quote]

There can be scramble rules. At least I wish so.

[TheCityGame]

I was actually mis-remembering the situation. We were putting from the fringe.

Of course, you can't leave one when you're on the green.

Thanks for the response. Love the "driver from the divot" move. Going to have to remember that if I'm ever playing lift/clean/place.

[TheCityGame]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1397719102' post='9109993']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1397718421' post='9109987']
[quote name='CoryN' timestamp='1397695555' post='9107891']
Around here everyone plays like this:

If chipping from off the green and your ball goes off a teammates, it's good.

If putting on the green and your ball hit's a teammates it does NOT count, but we don't give a penalty.

Might just be around here, as I'm not sure on the ruling for it, if there is one.
[/quote]

If you're still talking scrambles, there aren't any rules.
[/quote]

There can be scramble rules. At least I wish so.
[/quote]In our club scramble, they're generally well-regulated. Like I said earlier, I've seen a sketchy thing or two, but we have rules about how far you can move it, and you can't move from one cut to another. It's the same group that plays tournaments all year, so no one is going to be the guy who wants to get known as loose with the rules. Your typical charity scramble. . .all bets are off.

[sui generis]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1397666773' post='9104753']
Say you're first to putt in a scramble; you leave one right next to the hole and it might help the next guy get a deflection into the hole.

I never seen this explicitly outlawed in a scramble rule sheet.

Would you consider this cheating? Just unethical? Ever seen it?

About the hinkiest thing I've seen in a scramble was this: we selected a ball on the green, and a player walked over the green to get his ball. As he walked back to our ball, he rolled his ball down the green from near the hole to us. I didn't like that at the time.

Note : these are club scrambles, not the loosey - goosey charity stuff. Groups are selected according to handicaps. There's no strings or mullies or throws or any of that. Typically 7 to 10 under wins it. It's as much on the up and up as a scramble can be.
[/quote]

Ah, one of our favorites ... "Hey, what are the Rules when we're not playing by the Rules?"

[Imp]

One thing we do to help the pace is on the green, if the ball is on the lip from the 1st or 2nd plapyer, we'll tap it in and if one of the later balls goes in, we'll score that. Just speeds up instead of marking it, then putting, then having to put it down again and putt it.

--kC

[TheCityGame]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1397776883' post='9114901']
[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1397666773' post='9104753']
Say you're first to putt in a scramble; you leave one right next to the hole and it might help the next guy get a deflection into the hole.

I never seen this explicitly outlawed in a scramble rule sheet.

Would you consider this cheating? Just unethical? Ever seen it?

About the hinkiest thing I've seen in a scramble was this: we selected a ball on the green, and a player walked over the green to get his ball. As he walked back to our ball, he rolled his ball down the green from near the hole to us. I didn't like that at the time.

Note : these are club scrambles, not the loosey - goosey charity stuff. Groups are selected according to handicaps. There's no strings or mullies or throws or any of that. Typically 7 to 10 under wins it. It's as much on the up and up as a scramble can be.
[/quote]

Ah, one of our favorites ... "Hey, what are the Rules when we're not playing by the Rules?"
[/quote]And one of my favorites. . .not really read the OP or followups, or understand the tone of it, but pigeonhole it into your of your pet categories of posts you don't like.

[chadly643]

Does anyone else wish the governing bodies would legitimize scrambles? They are such a common part of this game. I get asked to play in at least 5-6 scrambles a summer I don't understand why the usga and r&a don't embrace this common way golf gets played. All the governing bodies are constantly complaining about declining participation but they won't embrace a form of the game that brings in a ton of new players.

Every time a scramble question gets asked we always get the response about how its not real golf. Why can't the leaders of golf make it a form of real golf like they have with matchplay.

[sui generis]

[quote name='chadly643' timestamp='1398043944' post='9133329']
Does anyone else wish the governing bodies would legitimize scrambles? They are such a common part of this game. I get asked to play in at least 5-6 scrambles a summer I don't understand why the usga and r&a don't embrace this common way golf gets played. All the governing bodies are constantly complaining about declining participation but they won't embrace a form of the game that brings in a ton of new players.

Every time a scramble question gets asked we always get the response about how its not real golf. [color=#ff0000]Why can't the leaders of golf make it a form of real golf like they have with matchplay.[/color]
[/quote]

How would you like the Rules to read for this new form of play?

[Imp]

What would you suggest be done? Which rules would have to be disregarded? I know of about 10 right off the top of my head... starting with picking up your ball on the fairway, dropping where the ball to be played (actually, placing and fluffing up), picking up ball on green, reading a line of putt, mulligans, and the list goes on.

More importantly: How would you propose for the round to be recorded for handicap purposes? When you follow the rules of golf, whether in match play, four ball, stroke play, etc... the rules are followed and no rules are disregarded which allows one to keep a valid handicap.

With everyone in the Scramble foursome shooting the same, VERY low and better then they'd shoot in a regular round score, how would one be able to record it for handicap purposes? If you play 5-6 scrambles a year and always shoot under par... can you do that in real life? No. Your handicap will be skewed (to the vanity side). Your handicap would not be a true reflection of your capability (which is usually worse than what a group scores in a scramble, even on a very bad day).

The only way around this is to make the rules, but let members know they cannot enter scores for handicap purposes, right? Sounds simple? Then let me ask you this... why spend the time making the rules if they don't apply to anything?

--kC

[TheCityGame]

You could make a set of rules that is basically this. . .

1) Rules of golf, except. . .
2) You get "lift, clean, and place" one club length, no closer to hole from the chosen shot of your group.
3) You can't change your "mow" (rough to fairway, fairway to green, etc.).

That's pretty much it.

But, scrambles tend to be fund raisers, so they make money selling strings, mullies, throws, whatever. If you want to do that, all bets are off.

That said, I'm not really a scramble fan. My club's first tournament is a scramble each year, and generally that's the only one I play in. It's a tournament where half the field shows up and says, "I haven't swung a club since November" and you meet and greet new members, etc etc.

I don't think there's any way to get individual handicaps from scramble events, but there are ways to handicap a scramble TEAM based on the individual handicaps. As long as people are keeping legit caps, you can handicap a scramble field.

[Sawgrass]

For the record, the Rules of Golf already sanction a game which does not provide handicap posting potential:

[color=#000000][size=3]Foursome: A competition in which two [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitors[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] play as [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Partner"]partners[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] and play one ball.[/size][/color]

IMO it would be easy for the RBs to create scramble rules based in general on the Rules of Golf. One big advantage would be that we'd save a lot of time discussing the fact that there are no scramble rules. We could get on with the task of discussing the cheating that would undoubtedly still go on.

[Imp]

Hmmm... thanks for that. Had forgotten.

--kC

[Rock Chalk Jayhawk]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1397671219' post='9105261']If the next putt hits that ball there is a 2 stroke penalty.
Apart from any problem with 22-1
[color=#000000][size=3]In stroke play, if the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Committee"]Committee[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] determines that [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitors[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Competitor"]competitor[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3], [/size][/color][color=red][size=3][b]they are disqualified[/b][/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3].[/size][/color][/quote]

Scrambles are not governed by the Rules of golf. It isn't an accepted golf format.

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='chadly643' timestamp='1398043944' post='9133329']
Does anyone else wish the governing bodies would legitimize scrambles? They are such a common part of this game. I get asked to play in at least 5-6 scrambles a summer I don't understand why the usga and r&a don't embrace this common way golf gets played. All the governing bodies are constantly complaining about declining participation but they won't embrace a form of the game that brings in a ton of new players.

Every time a scramble question gets asked we always get the response about how its not real golf. Why can't the leaders of golf make it a form of real golf like they have with matchplay.
[/quote]

I think that's a great idea Chad. Then all the "scrambles are not golf" guys could get off their soapboxes and b**** about something else.

Gee, you're on a golf course, you're using a golf club to try and put a golf ball, into a golf hole........what the hell is it, tiddlywinks?

Here's a thought. If you don't believe scrambles are golf.....DON'T CLICK ON THREADS ABOUT SCRAMBLES IN THE RULES FORUM. Those of us that enjoy them and play in a lot of them have heard it more than enough.

[sui generis]

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1398223695' post='9148899']
[quote name='chadly643' timestamp='1398043944' post='9133329']
Does anyone else wish the governing bodies would legitimize scrambles? They are such a common part of this game. I get asked to play in at least 5-6 scrambles a summer I don't understand why the usga and r&a don't embrace this common way golf gets played. All the governing bodies are constantly complaining about declining participation but they won't embrace a form of the game that brings in a ton of new players.

Every time a scramble question gets asked we always get the response about how its not real golf. Why can't the leaders of golf make it a form of real golf like they have with matchplay.
[/quote]

I think that's a great idea Chad. Then all the "scrambles are not golf" guys could get off their soapboxes and b**** about something else.

Gee, you're on a golf course, you're using a golf club to try and put a golf ball, into a golf hole........what the hell is it, tiddlywinks?

Here's a thought. If you don't believe scrambles are golf.....DON'T CLICK ON [color=#ff0000]THREADS ABOUT SCRAMBLES IN THE RULES FORUM[/color]. Those of us that enjoy them and play in a lot of them have heard it more than enough.
[/quote]

Ah, so right! And this begs the question as to why there are even "threads about scrambles in the Rules forum." More to the point why are there threads about pace-of-play, who's a jerk, how bad my life is et al in the Rules folder.

[smeech8000]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1398252566' post='9149839']
Ah, so right! And this begs the question as to why there are even "threads about scrambles in the Rules forum." More to the point why are there threads about pace-of-play, who's a jerk, how bad my life is et al in the Rules folder.[/quote]

1) Techinically, this is the Rules of Golf [b]and Etiquette[/b] folder

2) Pace of Play is specifically covered in Section I of the RoG under Etiquette

3) Section I is titled [i]Etiquette; Behavior on the Course[/i]; one could argue that "Who's a jerk" threads apply to the Spirit of the Game:[list]
[*][i][color=#000000][size=3]Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.[/size][/color][/i]
[/list]
4) Mods are responsible for moving a lot of these topics; have you contacted any of them regarding the policy/what determines if a topic gets moved here?

[vtnerf]

Got a chance to be teamed up with some guys a few years ago. When approaching the green to retrieve the balls, these guys would kind of swat at their own balls on the green after they had chosen which one to play. Only catch; they played if that one went in it counted. They made two through the round, and the other 2 guys just picked up, walked off, and said great Bird!!! That's what you call an interesting interpretation of playing a scramble...

[sui generis]

[quote name='smeech8000' timestamp='1398255698' post='9150023']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1398252566' post='9149839']
Ah, so right! And this begs the question as to why there are even "threads about scrambles in the Rules forum." More to the point why are there threads about pace-of-play, who's a jerk, how bad my life is et al in the Rules folder.[/quote]

1) Techinically, this is the Rules of Golf [b]and Etiquette[/b] folder

2) Pace of Play is specifically covered in Section I of the RoG under Etiquette

3) Section I is titled [i]Etiquette; Behavior on the Course[/i]; one could argue that "Who's a jerk" threads apply to the Spirit of the Game:[list]
[*][i][color=#000000][size=3]Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.[/size][/color][/i]
[/list]
4) [color=#ff0000]Mods are responsible for moving a lot of these topics; have you contacted any of them regarding the policy/what determines if a topic gets moved here?[/color]
[/quote]

Your observation about threads being moved here is spot on! (The mods are sick of hearing from me on the topic of goofy threads in the Rules folder ....)

[1t2golf]

Closed per OP's request.