Custom fitting, MOI for 4-10 HC's

[sniper]

I've read and enjoyed Mr. Wishon's articles/post and some of the other articles on custom fittings and it has me thinking about my own game and if a detailed customs fitting makes a difference.

 

A little about my game. I'm currently a 5.3 index and will probably drop a little as the weather gets warmer. I'm a longer hitter with iron play being the weakest part of my game. At the start of 2013 I sold some MX-300 with DG S300 and bought some i20's. The finish wore off and Ping agreed to replace my irons. I was struggling with hitting off the toe so Ping allowed me to be refit. I went from KBS Tour S and maroon dot +1/2 to ZZ65 Cushin, green dot +1/2. The plus 1/2 green dot were similar to previous specs. I hated the feel of the Cushin so I sold the i20's and started playing my pro's old r7 tp that are very upright and +1-1.25 over standard. In Nov I purchased the new AP2's 2up, +1/2 inch w/DG S300. I still wasn't sure about the irons so my wife agreed to let me scratch the itch on a custom set. I went to a top 100 fitter/builder. I hit some balls with flight scope, took some measurements. The fitter said first of all I hate Dynamic gold and think they are junk. I thought okay, they've always felt good to me but that's fine. He then said you swing a 6i at 93mph so we need something much stiffer and more upright. He told me the AP2 head fit me so let's look at a retro fit. I ended up with my AP2's bent further upright, KBS Tour X, changing the length by 5/8's inch (I think) to give me more length in the short irons and wedges. The shafts would be spined and flo'd and he MOI matched off of my 7i.

 

I'm now in month 3. I like the extra length compared to the original specs but the clubs don't feel better or worse, I don't hit the ball any better and the dispersion is not any better than the r7tps.

 

Another thread got me thinking about the clubs I was playing when I shot my low round. My low round came with a set of Ping i5's with single flex matched shafts. The best and most consistent golf I played was last summer with the r7tp's with an extra stiff single flex shaft from the same builder that had done the Pings. I had several under par 9's, making more birdies per round than I every have before or since. I felt like I was shorter with the r7's but couldn't complain about borrowed clubs and my play.

 

I wondering if I'm still missing something from the equipment standpoint? Or am I pretty much going to shoot the same scores with basically a static fitting set. When the Indian is on, the arrows don't make much of a difference. I can be steep but the my contact seemed much better with the r7's. Would the sole difference make that much of a difference?

 

I know properly fit can have a huge impact for some players but is there a handicap range of good players in which the equipment plays less of a roll and it comes down to swing?

 

Sorry for the long post but I'm still a little lost. I am working on my swing to lower my hands at impact.

 

 

feeling a little lost.

[rbhan12]

MOI gives the same feel of rotation, which I'm sure you're aware of. If you've been fit by a top 100 fitter I wouldn't question it. I think you just need some time to get set with the club and set up change before you really hone it in.

From what I can tell, you've been caught in the numbers. Just hit the ball with confidence knowing you've got an amazing fit!

[TomWishon]

[quote name='sniper' timestamp='1397757612' post='9112937']
I've read and enjoyed Mr. Wishon's articles/post and some of the other articles on custom fittings and it has me thinking about my own game and if a detailed customs fitting makes a difference.

A little about my game. I'm currently a 5.3 index and will probably drop a little as the weather gets warmer. I'm a longer hitter with iron play being the weakest part of my game.

I'm now in month 3. I like the extra length compared to the original specs but the clubs don't feel better or worse, I don't hit the ball any better and the dispersion is not any better than the r7tps.

Another thread got me thinking about the clubs I was playing when I shot my low round. My low round came with a set of Ping i5's with single flex matched shafts. The best and most consistent golf I played was last summer with the r7tp's with an extra stiff single flex shaft from the same builder that had done the Pings. I had several under par 9's, making more birdies per round than I every have before or since. I felt like I was shorter with the r7's but couldn't complain about borrowed clubs and my play.

I wondering if I'm still missing something from the equipment standpoint? Or am I pretty much going to shoot the same scores with basically a static fitting set. When the Indian is on, the arrows don't make much of a difference. I can be steep but the my contact seemed much better with the r7's. Would the sole difference make that much of a difference?

I know properly fit can have a huge impact for some players but is there a handicap range of good players in which the equipment plays less of a roll and it comes down to swing?

feeling a little lost.
[/quote]

As a 5.3 you are a good player which means that the areas to focus on to try to completely maximize your potential for better consistency and tighter accuracy with the irons has to center around, 1) the lengths, 2) the total weight; 3) the headweight feel of the irons and how all those match to your swing characteristics and your acquired preferences for what feels good to you to allow you to be more consistent and repeatable with the swing. Problem is with a good player, nailing down these things can take some trial and error - for a bad analogy, it's sort of like a junk foodie who has always loved burgers but never tried pizza to see if he likes it better.

I will say this from tons of experience and so will a lot of experienced clubfitters - open minded ones in particular who look at the science and try different things in their work to learn more. MOI matching of the irons when also done at the right lengths for the player and in 3/8" increments has shown to make a difference in consistency and accuracy in the irons for a lot of good players in your situation who have tried different things where they are only varying the shaft model or head model, but have remained only within the same areas of length increments and weighting (half inch increments, swingweight matching - sort of the burger in my analogy where 3/8" increments and MOI matching is the pizza you've never tried yet).

OK, so your wife might not be ready for another hit at the clubmaker's shop so here's your partial experiment on the cheap to learn something. Assuming the AP2 set is matched in swingweight for each iron, whatever is your lowest loft iron in the AP2 set that is your current set, leave it alone. Then the next club down, put one 4" long strip of 1/2" wide lead tape anywhere on the back of the head. The next one down from that, put two 4" long strips of lead tape on the back, the next one after that three strips and so on down through the PW. What you're doing is making the swingweights increase progressively in 0.5 increments down through to the PW. This is what we call the "poor man's imitation of MOI matching" but will give you some idea what that is all about so you can see if it may help you.

From there you can then determine if you want to see if the irons can be rebuilt to 3/8" increments and re weighted to be MOI matched. Possible but not totally probable.

Just out of curiosity, who was the Top 100 fitter you went to see who had the strong opinion on the Dynamic Golds?

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1397757950' post='9112981']

If you've been fit by a top 100 fitter I wouldn't question it.
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not, given what GD's qualifications and manner of selection to be on that list. But that's a story for another day. Let's just say there are quite a number of clubfitters not on the official GD Top 100 fitters list who would blow the sox off some of those on the list for fitting expertise, but cannot ever be on the list because GD first requires the candidate fitters to stock and offer OEM clubs in their fitting or else they will not even consider them for nomination to be on the list.

[rbhan12]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1397774302' post='9114717'][quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1397757950' post='9112981']

If you've been fit by a top 100 fitter I wouldn't question it.
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not, given what GD's qualifications and manner of selection to be on that list. But that's a story for another day. Let's just say there are quite a number of clubfitters not on the official GD Top 100 fitters list who would blow the sox off some of those on the list for fitting expertise, but cannot ever be on the list because GD first requires the candidate fitters to stock and offer OEM clubs in their fitting or else they will not even consider them for nomination to be on the list.[/quote]

True, GD has it's flaws, but what ranking doesn't? It may not be they perfect fit or to your perfect standards (which is a good thing no doubt), but surely it's good enough to prevent a horrid mis-fit.

I agree in that I was taken aback by the dynamic gold shafts are crap comment. First time I've ever heard that, a little more suspect of the top 100 fitter now. I would be curious to hear his reasoning.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1397774667' post='9114725']

I agree in that I was taken aback by the dynamic gold shafts are crap comment. First time I've ever heard that, a little more suspect of the top 100 fitter now. I would be curious to hear his reasoning.
[/quote]

Having taught more than 200 clubmaking and fitting schools in my past years and done a ton of technical seminars and presentations at many different clubmaker conventions in the past, I have had the chance to meet and personally speak to something north of 3000 different clubmakers in my career. Based on all the personalities I have encountered in the course of all this experience, my guess would be that this person probably fit a number of players with the DG shafts who then came back and he re fit with some other shaft that performed better for them. So instead of digging into this a little more to see what it was about these specific golfers swing characteristics or perceptions of feel who didn't like the Dg as well as some other shaft, it was easier to just say they were crap. Or what the heck, maybe someone at TT pissed the guy off sometime in the past.

We try very hard to teach clubmakers that there is no such thing as a good shaft or a bad shaft. There are only shafts which fit their owner much better than do other shafts.

On the list criteria thing, well it's probably best to just let that dog go back to sleep.

TOM

[rbhan12]

Agreed I was gonna say that somebody at TT must have rubbed him the wrong way or something.

I was actually considering making a thread on that thought, the quality of aftermarket shafts. I don't think I can name a single shaft manufacturer that makes a bad aftermarket shaft. The idea of this shaft being better than another is kinda skewed, unless you're talking about pure materials, processing, and failure tendencies. Seems much more to the tune of fitting a swing or not. Kinda perplexes me when people say oh that shaft is better than this one. Unless the shaft is made of magic or pitch fibers or exotic materials like the new TPHDe shafts from Matrix, I wouldn't call one shaft better than another. Only better for my swing or your swing.

I do firmly believe that stock made for shafts are crap though, especially those with bigger tips than normal to avoid a higher rate of breaking.

[sniper]

I hope it didn't come across as me bashing the fitter. He did give me his opinion on DG's. He also stated that he thought Tom and Kim Braly are genius with design. I've sent Tom a PM with the name but I'm not going to post the fitters name within the thread.