Caddies? Would you if you could?

[Mulligan26]

Alrighty gentlemen, here we go. Currently I work at a very nice public facility in Southern New Hampshire as the outside operations manager. This is my third season with this course and my first in my current position. I'll be taking my PAT later this summer so I can start the journey to PGA class A status.

 

Now that I've introduced myself, let's get to the meat and potatoes. My course is challenging, 73.4/140 from the 6800 yard tees. Our greens are very contoured and very fast (11 on normal days, pushing 13 on tournament days) and thus people can struggle.

 

What I would like to propose to my director of golf and the owner is a caddie program. I believe that between myself and our two Pros, we can train a couple kids to read our greens at a level that we could help the first time guest as well as our membership. Also, it would speed up play and increase course revenue as well as give us something very unique as no other public course offers a caddie program.

 

My questions to you guys are:

 

-Have you taken a caddie before?

 

-If so was the experience enjoyable?

 

-If not, what could have improved the experience?

 

-If you haven't taken a caddie, would you if given the chance?

 

Thanks guys, I'll take any and all feedback and comments.

[Jc0]

I'm going to say this from a business perspective, ask the people who play there first before going through with this. Just because it seems like a great idea to you doesn't mean the consumer wants it. You don't want to start this program, get the people trained, and then have no one use them.

[PapaJohick]

Sounds like a good idea and would be awesome. But obviously there are downsides. Is your course easily walkable? If so that's a good start. If not then I don't see many wanting it so they wise the cart and what not. I've never had a caddie before but if I had the chance I would for a one time thing. If I played the course regularly I probably wouldn't as my cost would be higher since I would have to pay green fees and need to tip the caddie.
One way to combat this is to make different prices for walking with caddy and riding a cart. That way the ones with caddie can basically tip the amount that they would have paid for a cart and it wouldn't feel like you're always burning a hole in my pocket. May be common sense for different prices but I see it here often that course have one price whether you walk or ride. It's annoying. Bad thing also would be if people are paying less and not taking carts, the. You're essentially losing money because you will still have maintenance costs that those cart costs ho with but you're not bringing them in anymore so there's that.
It's a big commitment and can be a good viable option just think it through and don't try and rush it. Also think of awesome ways to promote it.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1402239733' post='9453295']
Alrighty gentlemen, here we go. Currently I work at a very nice public facility in Southern New Hampshire as the outside operations manager. This is my third season with this course and my first in my current position. I'll be taking my PAT later this summer so I can start the journey to PGA class A status.

Now that I've introduced myself, let's get to the meat and potatoes. My course is challenging, 73.4/140 from the 6800 yard tees. Our greens are very contoured and very fast (11 on normal days, pushing 13 on tournament days) and thus people can struggle.

What I would like to propose to my director of golf and the owner is a caddie program. I believe that between myself and our two Pros, we can train a couple kids to read our greens at a level that we could help the first time guest as well as our membership. Also, it would speed up play and increase course revenue as well as give us something very unique as no other public course offers a caddie program.

My questions to you guys are:

-Have you taken a caddie before? - [color=#0000ff]Quite a few times.[/color]

-If so was the experience enjoyable? - [color=#0000ff]Almost always.[/color]

-If not, what could have improved the experience? -[color=#0000ff]Much of it is the attitude of the caddie. If they're in a bad mood, it's going to come through.[/color]

-If you haven't taken a caddie, would you if given the chance?

Thanks guys, I'll take any and all feedback and comments.
[/quote]
[color=#0000FF]I've been blessed to play some top tracks with caddies which is an amazing experience. Whistling Straits, Erin Hills, Medinah #3, Doral. The times when the experience wasn't as positive, for example, was at Erin Hills. On the first hole, I had a 3 wood in hand playing for position and he goaded me into hitting driver. Wrong play. Had a 4 foot par putt on the same hole that I read straight and he said it was outside right. Missed it just right and that made me question him. He misread a couple of other greens for our foursome and eventually we read things on our own.[/color]

[color=#0000FF]With that said, I'm the one who pulled the club out of the bag and hit the putt so I should have stuck with my instincts as opposed to the opinion of someone who really didn't know my ability...or lack thereof.[/color]

[bk52]

[quote name='Mulligan26' timestamp='1402239733' post='9453295']

My questions to you guys are:

-Have you taken a caddie before?

-If so was the experience enjoyable?

-If not, what could have improved the experience?

-If you haven't taken a caddie, would you if given the chance?

Thanks guys, I'll take any and all feedback and comments.
[/quote]

I have had caddies in Scotland and Ireland as well as Pinehurst and Pebble Beach. The best were in Scotland and the least polished ones were in Ireland. All enhanced the golf experience. All were fairly pricey.

When I am playing a destination type course and have already dropped a bundle on the trip, the cost of a caddy is fine. There is no way I would incur the expense regularly.

For me the most important characteristic for a caddy is an engaging personality. After that, course knowledge and some decent assistance on the greens are important.

[RRFireblade]

I have, sometimes do and will in the future when the need arises. At a certain level I would say a quality caddy is invaluable.

Very very few caddies reach that level A)

And #2, I honestly doubt many casual amateur golfers would ever consider paying additional for one.

Lastly, I don't think it make much sense logistically between the proliferation of golf carts and hand held GPS.

So in a nut shell, good idea on paper, never pay off in reality on anything but the highest end of luxery courses/facilities, IMO.

[shaffe]

There's a business reason courses all use carts and have gone away from caddie programs. Look at other course that use caddies and see how it compares to your course. Do some homework before you go to the boss. You want to have answers to his questions other than, I think it would be a good idea.

I think you will find that you will have a hard time building a business case for your idea other than, "wouldn't it be cool if ..."

[lumberman2462]

My club has a fore caddie program that works out to $20 per man in a foursome. They're mandatory for unaccompanied guests. They'll read greens( no idea how good they are) but spend most of their time searching for balls in the tall grass.

Initially the idea was to have a few genuine caddies but nobody ever booked them. Caddy fee was $75 plus tip.

I've used caddies and liked it. Especially when making one of those "Once in a Lifetime" deals. Had a caddy at Pinehurst, Pebble etc...I'd get a caddy at Bandon or another similar course. I've had great caddies and ok caddies....never really had a bad caddie.

Back in the 1990s there was a group of caddies that spent a few years working the summer at The Golf Club of Tennessee but spent the winters working Augusta National. Those guys were great. I had one that had been on a Masters winner's bag back in the 1970s. Good stories there.

[Shambles]

You need to carefully check out the average income level of your membership and play that against the caddy fees. The caddy will always be considered an additional expense and if the player is stretching just to be able to play, the cost of the caddy will keep him off. The cost of the caddy can double or nearly double the cost of a round and most of the services of a caddy are things a player can do for himself. Anyone counting his costs would easily drop the caddy expense, especially if a cart was available at equal or less cost.

Caddies are a security leak. Too often I have picked up umbrellas, club covers, sunglasses and even clubs on the fairways when following a flight that was too demanding of the caddies involved, thereby distracting them from the business of keeping an eye on all property. Too often the player is at fault but blames the caddy regardless.

The caddy is called upon to keep an eye on the ball and where it went, read distances and greens, find wandering balls, sand divots and clean the clubs. The caddy is very busy, and is still asked to hold an umbrella over the player and bring him snacks or drinks on command. The club itself requires the caddy to make the player move faster but maintain an agreeable manner throughout regardless of how rude and disagreeable the player too often is.

Offhand, I would only suggest caddies if the course was a luxury track, genuine or with pretensions. With all the gadgetry available these days, the caddy is more often just extra baggage and an obstruction to a players learning the game. The player really should learn to read the fairways, distances and greens on his own. He can do the learning even with the gadgets, but it's much more difficult with a caddy always piping in his inputs because those inputs can be inconsistent. Personally, I would prefer to pay for a cart rather than pay for a caddy.



Shambles

[Yrrdead]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1402245417' post='9453669']
My club has a fore caddie program that works out to $20 per man in a foursome. They're mandatory for unaccompanied guests. They'll read greens( no idea how good they are) but spend most of their time searching for balls in the tall grass.

Initially the idea was to have a few genuine caddies but nobody ever booked them. Caddy fee was $75 plus tip.

I've used caddies and liked it. Especially when making one of those "Once in a Lifetime" deals. Had a caddy at Pinehurst, Pebble etc...I'd get a caddy at Bandon or another similar course. I've had great caddies and ok caddies....never really had a bad caddie.

Back in the 1990s there was a group of caddies that spent a few years working the summer at The Golf Club of Tennessee but spent the winters working Augusta National. Those guys were great. I had one that had been on a Masters winner's bag back in the 1970s. Good stories there.
[/quote]

Let me second the forecaddie, I would gladly pay an additional forecaddie fee. More time is wasted looking for balls than anything else, I don't care how tricky your greens are.

[skullshot]

I had a caddie once, at Bandon Dunes, and it wasn't a good experience. The main reason is that the course assigned one caddie for both me and my friend. The caddie realized early on that I was good chipper with my lob wedge, and since my friend had a considerably higher handicap, throughout the round the caddie would hand me the wedge and head over to my friend's ball with both our bags. That left me with zero options for chips and pitches, and at Bandon, there are a lot of holes where a bump-and-run is the better play. And since the caddie was often 50 yards away when I was chipping, I got no help or advice reading the shot. The final problem was that we were charged the same as if we'd each had our caddie, and were expected to tip that way too. I thought about complaining, but decided to write it off as an unfortunate learning experience.

[skullshot]

I should add that the Bandon caddie did the best he could considering he was lugging two bags around a tough course with a steady 30 mph wind blowing all day.

[Musky]

They do a lot of doubling at Kohler/Whistling and Erin Hills. Not a fan.

[Jaylasvegas]

The insurance cost to have a caddie program will be expensive, you will also have to compensate the caddie via an hourly wage. You can hire a company like Caddiemaster to come in and run the program but that will be pricey as well. Many resorts have tried and decided it was not profitable

[Ballgofarboy]

I have never used a caddy and probably would not want to use one myself. Part of the fun in the game is figuring it out for yourself.


When I was stationed at Ft Stewart, GA, one year I went up to Hilton Head for the MCI Pro Am. My job was to tote the bag. Now Pro Ams are not the be all end all and are mainly for enjoyment. I was there just to tote the bag for $50 plus tips. I could not resist trying to be the an actual caddy. My AM was strong with a capital S.

Hitting 7 iron 160 into a two club wind strong. I asked him what his HCP was, and was told 18. The guy had no short game. We start on the 10th hole and he wants the BIG DOG I hand him his 5 wood and tell him the driver will run out of fairway and that was the club he needed. He hits it and then a PW into 8 foot, two putts for Par and tells me to club him all day. Long story short he plays 13 over and had one of his best days in a Pro Am event but he really did not enjoy it as much as I kept pulling him back from the hero shot and kept him in play all day. He gave me a $75 tip which was cool but I wonder what it would have been like if I just carried the bad and kept my mouth shut.

Caddies get smoked bad when the player cannot pull off the shot or feels that they have too much or too little club and don't pull off the shot. Really leaves them out in the wind when things are not going right and when it is a MONEY match it only gets worse.

[Jaylasvegas]

Another thing to consider, golfers already complain about the cost of green fees ever since the economy took a hit, adding another expense to the round is a sure way to kill your rounds per year.

[jeffreyl]

I have had a caddy for 25-35 rounds per year for the last 15 years and have helped with our caddy program for the last 12. Have had Caddies at other clubs and also forecaddies at The Ocean Course, Pete Dye Course in French Lick and others. Teenage caddies, generally do not read greens. It is the best experience I have had, playing golf. We have had 82 Evans Scholars from our Club (2nd in Indiana), 3 last year, 1 this year. I have been fortunate to see the young men and women transform into mature young adults. Had lunch, recently with an Evans scholar friend from Purdue recently that is now working for Gulfstream in Savannah, GA. Wonderful young man and a great Caddy.
[url="http://www.wgaesf.org/site/c.dwJTKiO0JgI8G/b.6021361/k.8BED/WGAESF_Home.htm"]http://www.wgaesf.or...WGAESF_Home.htm[/url]

[Forged4ever]

I use a caddie 100% of my tournaments and 95% of my money swats, and as I use the same caddy 95% of the time, the only time that I take a cart is the occasional "Moonlighters" swat when my caddy can't make it. I played 154 rounds in 2012, using a caddie for 146 of them. I have served as the Chair of the Caddie Committee and and been closely involved with the Evans Scholars Program and we have the most Evans Scholars Alumni in the state of Pennsylvania.

If trained properly, and the trainninng program is critical, caddies add much value and prestige to a club/course.

At a club like Oakmont, which, when I was playing, I played 5-6 times a year, many of the caddies are "Professional," in that they read greens, gauge winds & help with course mgt, etc. if you ask them to. I had my caddie from my club when I played tournaments and swats there. However most club caddies are not like the Top 5-10 clubs in the country in that most have High School and College Guys looping as a means to an end

The key is that they are not to offer advice, guidence, etc., unless asked, and then, only if they are trained and competent. I, myself, don't need nor do I use my caddie for any of that. He carries my bag, makes me smile now and again, as I'm wrapped sorta tight, and wipes off my clubs AFTER I do, lol. With a caddie program, no matter how big the program, the tail can't wag the dog.

If you would like to discuss a program in more detail, feel free to PM or better, e-mail me at:

rpjii at me dot com

The best with your job!

Fairways & Greens My Friend ,
Richard

[IamMarkMac]

I play a lot in Asia where caddies are the norm. I like caddies because it's great to walk a course when you're not carrying your bag. I'll test a caddy on the first couple of greens to see if they can read but, by and large, the main perk is being able to walk unencumbered. Another set of eyes on the ball from the tee is also helpful.

In general, I don't expect more than that and, that being the case, I'm rarely disappointed.

Here at home, I think it'd feel awkward since not everyone would likely play with a caddy. If everyone in my group had one though, I'd be all for it.

[Mulligan26]

Thank you for all of the responses gentlemen, I had a long day at work today but I will look over the thread tomorrow morning and address some of the posts, both positive and negative.

[redhead]

In most Asian countries, you have to play with a caddy. In fact, you have to pay more if you want to play alone just by yourself. Some clubs have male only (relatively older, experienced) caddy, some have female only, some have both male and female. Here for example: http://golfindonesia.biz/meet-the-caddy-ellie-from-palm-hill-golf-club/

I'm okay with caddy, especially helping me with bag/clubs/headcovers/etc. They're also particularly helpful in identifying hazard, reading slopes/greens, and measuring distance.

If I may choose, I'd prefer female caddy. They're usually younger and fun to talk to. I had an experience with male caddy once and he always offered me unwanted advice. "Your swing supposed to be blah blah blah..." "You need your hand to be blah blah blah..."

[llewol007]

I played with a couple who hired a caddie when I played pebble beach. Really informative guy and had to carry both bags which was not too bad I guess. Only thing is, the couple were not really that good and so the information given to them was actually never used the way you would see it on television. I liked the way he walked off yardage to different points so I found it very interesting. For me, yes you do have to pay for them and then top it off with tip. I believe most people would rather grab a cart with gps but if your course is somewhat tricky to play, it is nice to have some course knowledge. Just dont make the price point too high as to where people would much rather take a cart and not worry about the damn tip at the end.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1402251193' post='9454117']
They do a lot of doubling at Kohler/Whistling and Erin Hills. Not a fan.
[/quote]

Agreed. They tried to double me at Straits, but I insisted on my own caddy. While it's possible to get decent service from a double, it's quite possible to get mediocre service as well.

[Argonne69]

I've used caddies at Bandon, Pinehurst, Streamsong, Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, Kiawah Island Ocean, and a handful of other courses. I've also had a forecaddie numerous times.

In general, it's been a positive experience, especially with picking target lines. I'm an excellent reader of greens, and I've found I do a better job than most of the caddies I've had.

For a high end destination, a caddy is almost a must. For an average course, I could see people skipping the caddy, especially if the cost is high.

My preference would be to hire young caddies at a reduced rate. Sure, you're not going to get the level of service as a full time caddy, but you'll give the young person a summer job, and some life experience.

[deadsolid...shank]

I would take a look at the caddie program at Common Ground Golf Course in Denver. I haven't played it yet, but have seen a couple of shows that have highlighted it. They do it somehow as a benefit to the younger kids that do the caddying. If I'm not mistaken, I don't think they charge for the caddie, it's up to the customer on the tip.

Sorry I don't have more exact information, but I believe it is a pretty neat program they have going on there and might be worth looking into.

[shaffe]

I've read this thread's subject line 25 plus times now and all I can think when I see it is, "I've never seen a caddie that I would if I could." ... Sophomoric humor, I know.

[teckneeklyperfect]

me and myself have enough arguments, throw in another mind and mouth….

so, no

[lumberman2462]

Well, since I first posted in this topic I've had a chance to ask our Head Pro about the fore caddie program. Here's the deal: we can't find enough qualified guys until school gets out in the summer. And these kids are killing it financially. Weds, Thurs, & Saturday are the biggest fore caddie days at the club. There are 6-7 core groups that use the same kids every time. Throw in another 4-5 random groups and you've got a full time job for 12 guys.

Turns out the most coveted spots are Tuesday morning Ladies Day....the Ladies Tip Well.

Allegedly a couple of these kids are making $800-1000 per week with most of that in tips.

Who knew? I just joke around with those guys. Never actually used one.

My member guest is this weekend and the fore caddies have been assigned holes to work. Apparently this is new this year and has some of the members fired up that they can't get "their guy" for their matches.

I also found out that they get to play the course on Monday when it's closed.

[Aviador Naval]

I played quite a few rounds in Asia last year at places that required caddies. All were pleasant and concientious but in the end I didn't care for it at all. It disrupted my normal routine and other than the occasional green reading tip, they added very little value. I can see the benefit of a regular caddy for a competitive golfer but with the advent of GPS, I see little utility for the casual player.

[rsj1360]

Golf costs too much already without adding a caddie fee and tip on top of it. I carried my own clubs at St Andrews and pulled a cart at other courses in Scotland and at the Bandon courses.