New Ball Flight Laws, revisited

[Tax Man Golfeth]

We're all familiar with Trackman and the new ball flight laws, and how those seem to work much of the time. But sometimes, there seems to be something missing. Enter the Phantom...

 

I love Kelvin's site. This article was new this month. If you've ever noticed that you tend to hook when you stand too far from the ball, you might find this to be a pretty interesting read...

 

 

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2014-06-legend-of-ki-tora.html

[Itsjustagame]

The only person who hasn't heard about the new rules is the ball. It still curves left when you spin it counter clockwise and still curves right when you spin it clockwise.

[Reasonability]

And -- has the next long thread just been hatched???? Is it time to get the popcorn?

Tax Man -- I do thank you for sharing that. I haven't even opened the link yet but I will do so right now. My quip is because Flight Laws (as BT once put it) have MANY sheriffs on WRX.

[Golfrnut]

Already some discussion on it in another thread if interested...

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/993523-trackman-and-ball-flight-laws/page__st__180"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/993523-trackman-and-ball-flight-laws/page__st__180[/url]

[BenHoganSlam1953]

Interesting read. I don't know all the nuances of the ball flight laws and it really doesn't matter as science and science-fiction have always been intertwined. I am developing my own understanding of the ball flight laws as they apply to me. I find that the faster the club head speed the more the old laws work seem to apply and the slower the club head speed the more the new laws take effect. Also, the old laws can get overridden by the newer laws even at high club head speeds once my club face angle goes beyond a certain threshold.

Of course, the difference could just be my technique when swinging faster, but it doesn't matter as long as it is repeatable.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

not again....

[Reasonability]

...pull pin...throw grenade....cover ears... kaboom

[FairwayGolfUSA.com]

great article. I read all of miyaharas posts and its very detailed interesting stuff.

-Ryan

[Tax Man Golfeth]

Given driver face roll, different COR across the face, ROC, COG and other variables, the laws do seem like oversimplifications. Despite the arguments about the impact interval being only 0.0004 seconds long (an interval so short, impact is thought to be static), there is clearly a whole lot going on in that timeframe. I, for one, will be focusing on applying a greater eccentric force to the far side of the ball to straighten out my drives! hehe..

In all seriousness, it seems to follow that - all things equal - a golfer that retains lag until closer to impact would have a higher ROC at impact than a golfer that never achieved enough wrist set, or overswung going back and threw it away early, etc. For example, if you had zero wrist set and maintained a straight arm/club unit through the whole swing, you'd have a very low ROC. So in addition to helping put the clubhead on an in to out path, a delayed lag release would maximize the delta in clubhead speed b/n toe to heel (essentially ROC) at impact and help keep the ball from wanting to go right. Does this make sense? Did I just talk myself into shortening my backswing?

My next thread will be about whether or not I should play tour issue blades, given that I'm an awesome ballstriker every third Tuesday.

[hoganfan924]

I suspect that the reason that Kelvin didn't find what is typically expected re: gear effect has to do with the design of modern drivers that have "trampoline effect." Simply stated, the far edges of the driver face act more like a solid driver (because they can't compress the supporting side wall, with a COR probably around .78 while the closer to the center, the higher the COR (.83). So if the ball is compressing partially on the edge, the part of the ball that is closer to the center sees a higher force (that would counteract gear effect some). This might explain why a severe heel hit without an overly closed clubface would produce a nasty pull hook and why a ball hit way out on the toe (without an open face) a severe push slice. It would be interesting to see him repeat this testing with a solid driver or one without trampoline effect (persimmon or original TM steel), although these clubs should still produce higher energy transfer near the center of the face (but perhaps the effect is not as great as titanium).

This is probably also the reason that the manufacturers have changed the contour of titanium driver faces with things like inverted cones and by thinning the face near the edges (to expand the effective sweet spot zone). I'd be shocked if the major OEM's don't do exactly the kind of experimentation that Kelvin has done.

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1403235510' post='9537053']

This is probably also the reason that the manufacturers have changed the contour of titanium driver faces with things like inverted cones and by thinning the face near the edges (to expand the effective sweet spot zone). I'd be shocked if the major OEM's don't do exactly the kind of experimentation that Kelvin has done.
[/quote]

They have. Titleist original Howitzer is a far cry from their 975 and 976 series which were quite different in what they put out today. I recall when TM first came out with their irons having the trampoline effect which was their marketing slogan of the day. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody comes out with a driver with a built in gyroscope that forced you to stay on plane.

[Soloman1]

[quote name='Dinosaur' timestamp='1403277696' post='9539413']
It wouldn't surprise me if somebody comes out with a driver with a built in gyroscope that forced you to stay on plane.
[/quote]

Old news.

[attachment=2285209:sklz-gyro-swing-trainer.jpg]

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1403279872' post='9539679']
[quote name='Dinosaur' timestamp='1403277696' post='9539413']
It wouldn't surprise me if somebody comes out with a driver with a built in gyroscope that forced you to stay on plane.
[/quote]

Old news.

[attachment=2285209:sklz-gyro-swing-trainer.jpg]
[/quote]

Yep.....

"There is nothing new under the sun for all is vanity".

[scotee]

If you don't want to wade through the whole article, here is the Cliff Notes version.

[color=#333333][size=3]"Given the true dynamic nature of the collision of ball and clubface plus all these variables (there could even be more), how are we to come up with ball flight laws? This is impossible. You want some simple equation like ball goes 85% in the direction of the clubface? Not going to happen in a million years."[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]
[color=#333333][size=3]"After all, if a $30,000 machine can’t present all the complex information needed to understand real ball flight laws, electronic toys like these gyros, accelerometers have virtually no hope in getting this right either. Sample rates are too low and error margin too high. I tested a Swingbyte2 vs. the Phantom and the errors are huge."[/size][/color][/size][/color]

[StezzGolfer]

HAHAHAHAH this article was awesome. Is this the Dos Equis 'Most Interesting Man in the World'?

He does exist!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1403286292' post='9540495']
If you don't want to wade through the whole article, here is the Cliff Notes version.

[color=#333333][size=3]"Given the true dynamic nature of the collision of ball and clubface plus all these variables (there could even be more), how are we to come up with ball flight laws? This is impossible. You want some simple equation like ball goes 85% in the direction of the clubface? Not going to happen in a million years."[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3][color=#333333][size=3]"After all, if a $30,000 machine can’t present all the complex information needed to understand real ball flight laws, electronic toys like these gyros, accelerometers have virtually no hope in getting this right either. Sample rates are too low and error margin too high. I tested a Swingbyte2 vs. the Phantom and the errors are huge."[/size][/color][/size][/color]
[/quote]

Sure. A lot of us have been questioning the ability of the doppler machines to accurately reflect things like face angle when impact is off the sweet spot for quite a while now and have pretty much been stonewalled. I've put up smash factor numbers on trackman (with both irons and driver) that I've been told by members here are "impossible." I'm skeptical of the claims about toe vs. heel clubhead speed differential as well. The effect (or not) of "shaft kick" is another question mark. Lot's of unanswered questions. Glad someone is doing the phantom camera work to try and get to the bottom of some of these questions. I'm sure the OEM's are as well, but they'll closely guard their findings.

[Tax Man Golfeth]

And if face angle, AoA and path all change DURING THE IMPACT INTERVAL, how does one represent these as static measurements anyway? At which point are they measured, or are they calculated based on resulting ball flight and other factors the machine can measure, under the false assumption that impact is static/instantaneous?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Tax Man Golfeth' timestamp='1403292398' post='9541275']
And if face angle, AoA and path all change DURING THE IMPACT INTERVAL, how does one represent these as static measurements anyway? At which point are they measured, or are they calculated based on resulting ball flight and other factors the machine can measure, under the false assumption that impact is static/instantaneous?
[/quote]

The last two aren't changing fast enough for the impact duration to have any significant effect. You'd see changes in like the hundredths or thousandths place. The only reason the face angle concept has merit is because it's a rotational value that has a way higher derivative and thus a small span of time can still cause a significant enough change to matter.

[Professor D]

This guy's out there....................WAY out there. Its really just a baseless smear campaign against TrackMan. I guess some people are just threatened by their own perception that they are no longer the one providing the answers. Guys like this are in WAY over their head when they challenge the research findings of a brilliant scientist like Fredrik Tuxen, inventor of TrackMan. I mean, do these people actually think that Tuxen and his team have never heard of a Phantom camera? These are the guys doing the best research on this subject and trying to find answers. They've already provided facts that weren't available before. And they will continue to lead the REAL scientific research in this field.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Anybody out there who can roll their hands over fast enough through impact to get the ball to noticeably fade gets a free case of IPA.

[mdgboxx]

Every single PRO, not getting [u]exactly[/u] what he wants off the tee, should attend a siminar on ball flight laws, instead of wasting money and time, making a coach rich(ier,ier)