are you a feel player?

[no where to look]

[quote name='BenHoganSlam1953' timestamp='1409809144' post='10061691']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1409752956' post='10055935']
[quote name='Free swingr' timestamp='1409684019' post='10051007']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1409263067' post='10027185']
This^^. I've never met a non feel player either. I do however know a bunch of overly technical feel players that have an overload of swing thoughts and positions. This to me, can dull the ability to feel what you are doing. In golf what you think you are doing and what you are actually doing are often totally different

Free swingr,

Agree the further we can trust , 'feel' the better.

and when it happens , rarely for me, that we are wholely playing with, 'feel'... no thoughts; even if only for a few holes at a time, isn't that what its all about?
[/quote]

It's rare for everyone unfortunately but it's what we should all strive for. The best rounds of my life all had one common denominator. I was almost in a coma. Everything slowed down and I simply reacted to my target. I think most golfers don't give themselves enough credit for having a great sense of feel. The human body is amazing in that we all have incredible senses and feel is one of them. You just have to tap into it. Even the most technical guys on tour are all relying on feel. Without the ability to feel, golf would be impossible.
[/quote]






When we drive a vehicle, it is, as if we become an extension of the vehicle. Mirror images, back up camera, sounds contribute to our awareness of the vehicle in space, and we move the vehicle by feel. For those moments we are the vehicle



Hard to believe an 18 wheeler can become an extension of ourselves but how else could it be done?



In golf swing do we become an extension of the golf club?



when that happens, Is that the ‘coma’ you refer to?
[/quote]

I never drove 18 wheelers, but I worked part-time with the night crew cleaning and parking city buses when I was a teenager. It only took a few weeks before I was driving them like the full-timers. No different than a go-cart. We would back them up side by side, separated by inches (having to pull in the driver side mirror to finish parking) and we only needed one try and it was done in 10 - 20 seconds. We were backing them up at 15 - 20+ clicks, flush without hesitation. We had to watch ourselves, because it naturally became a challenge as to how fast we could park them and how close we could get them together. The bus drivers didn't like it if they needed a bus that was not at the end - they couldn't get in their bus. We were always trying to work faster and put the buses closer together, even when parked in a line; as the terminal had too many buses.
[/quote]


My first part time job at 15 was at a gas station/ Hertz truck rental station, so I learned to drive/ standard transmission, parking 5 ton vans and stake trucks.

Of course didn't give it a second thought at the time, but It is amazing how quickly we pick up this stuff.


I asked if we become an extension of the golf club.

Maybe question is better put, whether the golf club becomes an extension of us....; an additional lever.

[wadesworld]

Feel is pretty much the entire subject of Shawn Clement's teachings. As he says, "we are gravity experts." If I ask you to toss a golf ball into my hand, you'll do it - or come really close. If I do the same with a baseball, you'll succeed there too. Why? Did you break out a scale and weigh each ball and then do the physics equation to figure out how much force to impart? Of course not. You weighed the ball in your hand, looked at the target, and then your brain figured out the force necessary.

If you give your body the information it needs, it can be VERY accurate at figuring out the force needed. But if you take that information away, your body doesn't know what to do. What is the crucial information? Gravity. If you allow the club to swing with gravity, your body has the information it needs to make the calculation. If you try to take control and achieve positions and use your muscles to swing the club and remove gravity from the equation, you've lost a massive input into the equation. Literally it's like trying to solve a physics equation involving gravity where gravity is not a constant. You're completely guessing. Occasionally, you'll guess right (or close enough), but more often you'll guess wrong.

Now, if you do swing with gravity, that's not to say that all your golfing woes are over. But the battle changes. Rather than battle with trying to achieve positions or crazy swing thoughts, your battle becomes trusting gravity enough to let go of control. It becomes easier with practice, but I'm not sure the desire to take control can ever be completely overcome.

[no where to look]

[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1409841122' post='10063027']
Feel is pretty much the entire subject of Shawn Clement's teachings. As he says, "we are gravity experts." If I ask you to toss a golf ball into my hand, you'll do it - or come really close. If I do the same with a baseball, you'll succeed there too. Why? Did you break out a scale and weigh each ball and then do the physics equation to figure out how much force to impart? Of course not. You weighed the ball in your hand, looked at the target, and then your brain figured out the force necessary.

If you give your body the information it needs, it can be VERY accurate at figuring out the force needed. But if you take that information away, your body doesn't know what to do. What is the crucial information? Gravity. If you allow the club to swing with gravity, your body has the information it needs to make the calculation. If you try to take control and achieve positions and use your muscles to swing the club and remove gravity from the equation, you've lost a massive input into the equation. Literally it's like trying to solve a physics equation involving gravity where gravity is not a constant. You're completely guessing. Occasionally, you'll guess right (or close enough), but more often you'll guess wrong.

Now, if you do swing with gravity, that's not to say that all your golfing woes are over. But the battle changes. Rather than battle with trying to achieve positions or crazy swing thoughts, your battle becomes trusting gravity enough to let go of control. It becomes easier with practice, but I'm not sure the desire to take control can ever be completely overcome.
[/quote]

Does Shawn Clement actually say that 'feel' is Gravity?

[wadesworld]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1409870933' post='10066203']

Does Shawn Clement actually say that 'feel' is Gravity?
[/quote]

I don't know that he actually uses that phrase word-for-word, but he absolutely says that if you remove gravity and try to manipulate the club yourself, your body does not have the information it needs to decide how hard it needs to hit the ball in order to achieve a certain distance.

[pinhigh27]

what does bits per second mean in terms of humans? Nothing because it's not possible. Our minds don't work in binary, they're not hard drives with 0s and 1s all over them.

I feel I play better when I dont laser every yardage, even on the weird 60 yarders

[Free swingr]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1409835935' post='10062433']
[quote name='BenHoganSlam1953' timestamp='1409809144' post='10061691']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1409752956' post='10055935']
[quote name='Free swingr' timestamp='1409684019' post='10051007']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1409263067' post='10027185']
This^^. I've never met a non feel player either. I do however know a bunch of overly technical feel players that have an overload of swing thoughts and positions. This to me, can dull the ability to feel what you are doing. In golf what you think you are doing and what you are actually doing are often totally different

Free swingr,

Agree the further we can trust , 'feel' the better.

and when it happens , rarely for me, that we are wholely playing with, 'feel'... no thoughts; even if only for a few holes at a time, isn't that what its all about?
[/quote]

It's rare for everyone unfortunately but it's what we should all strive for. The best rounds of my life all had one common denominator. I was almost in a coma. Everything slowed down and I simply reacted to my target. I think most golfers don't give themselves enough credit for having a great sense of feel. The human body is amazing in that we all have incredible senses and feel is one of them. You just have to tap into it. Even the most technical guys on tour are all relying on feel. Without the ability to feel, golf would be impossible.
[/quote]






When we drive a vehicle, it is, as if we become an extension of the vehicle. Mirror images, back up camera, sounds contribute to our awareness of the vehicle in space, and we move the vehicle by feel. For those moments we are the vehicle



Hard to believe an 18 wheeler can become an extension of ourselves but how else could it be done?



In golf swing do we become an extension of the golf club?



when that happens, Is that the ‘coma’ you refer to?
[/quote]

I never drove 18 wheelers, but I worked part-time with the night crew cleaning and parking city buses when I was a teenager. It only took a few weeks before I was driving them like the full-timers. No different than a go-cart. We would back them up side by side, separated by inches (having to pull in the driver side mirror to finish parking) and we only needed one try and it was done in 10 - 20 seconds. We were backing them up at 15 - 20+ clicks, flush without hesitation. We had to watch ourselves, because it naturally became a challenge as to how fast we could park them and how close we could get them together. The bus drivers didn't like it if they needed a bus that was not at the end - they couldn't get in their bus. We were always trying to work faster and put the buses closer together, even when parked in a line; as the terminal had too many buses.
[/quote]


My first part time job at 15 was at a gas station/ Hertz truck rental station, so I learned to drive/ standard transmission, parking 5 ton vans and stake trucks.

Of course didn't give it a second thought at the time, but It is amazing how quickly we pick up this stuff.


I asked if we become an extension of the golf club.

Maybe question is better put, whether the golf club becomes an extension of us....; an additional lever.
[/quote]

To use the driving a car example, this is my take on it. Feel to me is when you can shift to 3rd gear in a manual vehicle while hanging your head out of the window to talk to your buddy in the next lane. You have shifted gears so many times you don't even have to pay attention to complete your task. You draw on all the thousands of times you have shifted gears to "feel" where you need to move the gear shifter. When I'm playing my very best and I'm in a "coma" I'm simply reacting to my target. I'm letting my body take over the swing without thinking about how I'm going to swing. It takes a lot of reps IMO to develop the proper "feel" but once you have it you have it. Now I don't know all the science about the human body but I do know humans have an almost superhuman ability to recognize and repeat feelings. Ya know that feeling you get when you flush a nail with a hammer? Then you use that feel to repeatedly hit nails on the button with the hammer. After you have that feeling of hitting a few nails perfectly you start to get in a groove and hit them all square on the head. That's feel, and all of us have it. You just have to tap into it. Damn I wish I could better articulate the thoughts my brain has. Lol. Hopefully this helps someone

Try this.... This is a little drill I will have people do to try to feel, what feel feels like. Get a wedge out that you chip with. Pick a target 20 or so feet out and make 10 continuous practice swings that you think will chip the ball to your target. Don't stop making the chipping swing until you have finished 10 practice chip swings. Make sure to not stop once you begin. Make your first practice swing and at the end of the swing draw the club back in one motion and make another practice swing until you have done 10 of them (think pendulum swinging back and forth without stopping). After the 10th continuous practice swing stop for about 5 seconds but stay in your posture. Count to 5 then make just 1 practice swing but try to make it a carbon copy of your 10 continuous practice swings. It should be super easy to copy the 10 continuous and it should give you a real sense of feel. It really works and I have found that it gives people a really pronounced sense of what "feel," feels like. This drill is also great for your chipping if you have a habit of getting too much tension in your arms when you chip. The continuous swings help relieve tension in hands/arms.

[Hot Rod 71]

Be the ball, Danny....

[no where to look]

Now I don't know all the science about the human body but I do know humans have an almost superhuman ability to recognize and repeat feelings.

'super human' is being human. We all have it. We use it every day automatically/involuntarily.


I talked to a friend yesterday who had a shooting accident. A 3 inch shot gun slug entered under the skin of his chest on the right side and exited under the skin but not internally on the left side. He never lost consciousness and in the end it was 'flesh wound' about 12 inches long.

He said as he looked at the hole in his upper chest, the thought that he was dying raced through his mind and he wondered how long it would take... then he said his brain , exploded..

The only way he could explain it was his brain EXPLODED. The look in his face when he said it, could tell it was something he never experienced before.


We know very little about the brain and how we function.

For my golf game, I don't have time for science to figure out how the brain works. I do know we function best when our movements /chain actions are subconscious/automatic.

[no where to look]

Ben Hogan was known to have figured out the mechanics of the golf swing.
these quotes have been attributed to him. Sounds a 'feel' player:

“… a well hit golf shot as a feeling that goes up the shaft, right into your hands-and into your heart.”


“I didn’t know the yardage. I didn’t want to know the yardage. There are too many variables - the wind, the air density, how you’re playing that day. I would remember if I had been beside a certain tree or trap or something like that and what I hit and how I played that shot. I don’t think I could play by yardage.”

freeswingr,

A variation on your 20 foot shot is to use five different clubs
one chance each, consecutively to hit the same shot.

That to me is feel.

[c7015]

I am a feel player but I like to know exact yardages from anything 50+ yards out ... which some would say is not going by feel

[Golden Domer]

We all are

[Hot Rod 71]

There's a story about Snead I read a while back. He was playing in a pro-am and one of the amateurs in the group would ask Snead what club he had hit on a shot or what club he was going to hit for a shot.

Snead finally had enough, and when the guy asked Snead what club he was going to use for his 150 yard shot he was preparing to hit, Snead dumped his bag out on the ground and snarled "pick one!".

If you can hit a 4, 5, 6, 7or 8 iron, or even a hybrid or 3 wood from 150 with some level of accuracy, you are feel player for sure.

[Pete Paxhia]

[quote name='CTSpinDoctor' timestamp='1409060438' post='10010149']
i dont use a range finder. i just go off of how far i FEEL i will and need to hit it.
[/quote]THATS JUST CEAZY TALK. yea feel is fine with a small pitch, but when your behind the 150mark to n elevated green need to know the distance

[BenHoganSlam1953]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1409950724' post='10071923']
There's a story about Snead I read a while back. He was playing in a pro-am and one of the amateurs in the group would ask Snead what club he had hit on a shot or what club he was going to hit for a shot.

Snead finally had enough, and when the guy asked Snead what club he was going to use for his 150 yard shot he was preparing to hit, Snead dumped his bag out on the ground and snarled "pick one!".

If you can hit a 4, 5, 6, 7or 8 iron, or even a hybrid or 3 wood from 150 with some level of accuracy, you are feel player for sure.
[/quote]

That is funny considering that Sam was known to always be looking into other player's bags to see what club they selected, especially if his ball was nearby. He would listen attentively when the other players would announce what they were hitting to the commentator. Players have wondered how many more tournaments and majors Sam might have won if he didn't have his club selection confidence problem.

[no where to look]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1409913280' post='10068775']
Be the ball, Danny....
[/quote]


If our vehicles are an extension of ourselves when we drive
and golf clubs are an extension of us when we play golf,

doesn't that explain why we have a high standard for wanting compatibility with those THINGS?

Sure the're investments so we are picky, but a furnace is an investment also, equally important but who gives a
what kind of furnace we buy or the color.

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410043982' post='10076797']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1409913280' post='10068775']
Be the ball, Danny....
[/quote]


If our vehicles are an extension of ourselves when we drive
and golf clubs are an extension of us when we play golf,

doesn't that explain why we have a high standard for wanting compatibility with those THINGS?

Sure the're investments so we are picky, but a furnace is an investment also, equally important but who gives a
what kind of furnace we buy or the color.
[/quote]

I'm with ya!

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410043982' post='10076797']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1409913280' post='10068775']
Be the ball, Danny....
[/quote]


If our vehicles are an extension of ourselves when we drive
and golf clubs are an extension of us when we play golf,

doesn't that explain why we have a high standard for wanting compatibility with those THINGS?

Sure the're investments so we are picky, but a furnace is an investment also, equally important but who gives a
what kind of furnace we buy or the color.
[/quote]

pass the bong man

[no where to look]

[quote name='BenHoganSlam1953' timestamp='1409973806' post='10073599']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1409950724' post='10071923']
There's a story about Snead I read a while back. He was playing in a pro-am and one of the amateurs in the group would ask Snead what club he had hit on a shot or what club he was going to hit for a shot.

Snead finally had enough, and when the guy asked Snead what club he was going to use for his 150 yard shot he was preparing to hit, Snead dumped his bag out on the ground and snarled "pick one!".

If you can hit a 4, 5, 6, 7or 8 iron, or even a hybrid or 3 wood from 150 with some level of accuracy, you are feel player for sure.
[/quote]

That is funny considering that Sam was known to always be looking into other player's bags to see what club they selected, especially if his ball was nearby. He would listen attentively when the other players would announce what they were hitting to the commentator. Players have wondered how many more tournaments and majors Sam might have won if he didn't have his club selection confidence problem.
[/quote]



Don't all the pros do that?

[tocino]

sure I'm a "feel" player... I "feel" really good when I hit a nice shot and i "feel" really bad when I don't =P

ok, basically I'm not a feel player when taking a full swing on any of my clubs. I pretty much know how far most of them will go if I make solid contact. Anything 90 yards and in is a feel type shot for me. I've praticed enough where I know what type of shot i need to hit from a variety of distances (even though I may not successfully pull it off every time)

[no where to look]

[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1410191963' post='10084223']
sure I'm a "feel" player... I "feel" really good when I hit a nice shot and i "feel" really bad when I don't =P

ok, basically I'm not a feel player when taking a full swing on any of my clubs. I pretty much know how far most of them will go if I make solid contact. Anything 90 yards and in is a feel type shot for me. I've praticed enough where I know what type of shot i need to hit from a variety of distances (even though I may not successfully pull it off every time)
[/quote]

If you THINK that you can consciously control 200 bones, and over 600 muscles in a co ordinated chain action sequence; your NOT a feel player.

[notsohard]

[quote name='DrunkenTiger' timestamp='1409159014' post='10019155']
Use the force
[/quote]

Only when she says so.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410660019' post='10113777']
[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1410191963' post='10084223']
sure I'm a "feel" player... I "feel" really good when I hit a nice shot and i "feel" really bad when I don't =P

ok, basically I'm not a feel player when taking a full swing on any of my clubs. I pretty much know how far most of them will go if I make solid contact. Anything 90 yards and in is a feel type shot for me. I've praticed enough where I know what type of shot i need to hit from a variety of distances (even though I may not successfully pull it off every time)
[/quote]

If you THINK that you can consciously control 200 bones, and over 600 muscles in a co ordinated chain action sequence; your NOT a feel player.
[/quote]

huh? You decide what you want to do and your body makes it happen. Conversations like this never go anywhere and I'm sure it's going to turn into a semantics debate though. I'm pretty sure when I decide to squat, I'm consciously having my entire body working to prevent me from getting crushed.

[no where to look]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1410662289' post='10113937']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410660019' post='10113777']
[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1410191963' post='10084223']
sure I'm a "feel" player... I "feel" really good when I hit a nice shot and i "feel" really bad when I don't =P

ok, basically I'm not a feel player when taking a full swing on any of my clubs. I pretty much know how far most of them will go if I make solid contact. Anything 90 yards and in is a feel type shot for me. I've praticed enough where I know what type of shot i need to hit from a variety of distances (even though I may not successfully pull it off every time)
[/quote]

If you THINK that you can consciously control 200 bones, and over 600 muscles in a co ordinated chain action sequence; your NOT a feel player.
[/quote]

huh? You decide what you want to do and your body makes it happen. Conversations like this never go anywhere and I'm sure it's going to turn into a semantics debate though. I'm pretty sure when I decide to squat, I'm consciously having my entire body working to prevent me from getting crushed.
[/quote]

If you THINK that dynamic balance in the golf swing is achievable by applying FUNDAMENTALS, you know squat about feel.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410700130' post='10114941']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1410662289' post='10113937']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410660019' post='10113777']
[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1410191963' post='10084223']
sure I'm a "feel" player... I "feel" really good when I hit a nice shot and i "feel" really bad when I don't =P

ok, basically I'm not a feel player when taking a full swing on any of my clubs. I pretty much know how far most of them will go if I make solid contact. Anything 90 yards and in is a feel type shot for me. I've praticed enough where I know what type of shot i need to hit from a variety of distances (even though I may not successfully pull it off every time)
[/quote]

If you THINK that you can consciously control 200 bones, and over 600 muscles in a co ordinated chain action sequence; your NOT a feel player.
[/quote]

huh? You decide what you want to do and your body makes it happen. Conversations like this never go anywhere and I'm sure it's going to turn into a semantics debate though. I'm pretty sure when I decide to squat, I'm consciously having my entire body working to prevent me from getting crushed.
[/quote]

If you THINK that dynamic balance in the golf swing is achievable by applying FUNDAMENTALS, you know squat about feel.
[/quote]

alright you think about trying to cure cancer and I'll think about keeping my head steady.

[no where to look]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1410711778' post='10115481']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410700130' post='10114941']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1410662289' post='10113937']
[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1410660019' post='10113777']
[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1410191963' post='10084223']
sure I'm a "feel" player... I "feel" really good when I hit a nice shot and i "feel" really bad when I don't =P

ok, basically I'm not a feel player when taking a full swing on any of my clubs. I pretty much know how far most of them will go if I make solid contact. Anything 90 yards and in is a feel type shot for me. I've praticed enough where I know what type of shot i need to hit from a variety of distances (even though I may not successfully pull it off every time)
[/quote]

If you THINK that you can consciously control 200 bones, and over 600 muscles in a co ordinated chain action sequence; your NOT a feel player.
[/quote]

huh? You decide what you want to do and your body makes it happen. Conversations like this never go anywhere and I'm sure it's going to turn into a semantics debate though. I'm pretty sure when I decide to squat, I'm consciously having my entire body working to prevent me from getting crushed.
[/quote]

If you THINK that dynamic balance in the golf swing is achievable by applying FUNDAMENTALS, you know squat about feel.
[/quote]

alright you think about trying to cure cancer and I'll think about keeping my head steady.
[/quote]

You do that.

Making light of cure for cancer, your obviously UNFEELING.

Carry on with the fundamentals.

[no where to look]

"If you don't know golf as a game of feeling, then you are like a deaf man trying to play piano by ear."


Ben Hogan, 1943.

....[attachment=2426797:bhpg1.pdf]

[ChipDriver]

A technical player tends to play a shot that is required by the available conditions and ignore his instincts; but a feel player tends to consider them.

[finalist]

Feel is only possible if you hit a consistent spot on the face. If you don't hit the same spot consistently then you are seeing various distances from the various spots you hit on the face. ...so IMO feel is all about striking consistently more than anything.

I find a lot of people who don't really know their yardages, because they don't hit a consistent spot still think of themselves as feel players because that's all they can answer. Consistent mechanics = feel

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='no where to look' timestamp='1411247388' post='10153893']
"If you don't know golf as a game of feeling, then you are like a deaf man trying to play piano by ear."


Ben Hogan, 1943.

....[attachment=2426797:bhpg1.pdf]
[/quote]

I swear if Hogan had said that you shouldn't wipe your @ss after you dropped a deuce, you guys wouldn't do that either.

[no where to look]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1411250275' post='10154089']
Feel is only possible if you hit a consistent spot on the face. If you don't hit the same spot consistently then you are seeing various distances from the various spots you hit on the face. ...so IMO feel is all about striking consistently more than anything.

I find a lot of people who don't really know their yardages, because they don't hit a consistent spot still think of themselves as feel players because that's all they can answer. Consistent mechanics = feel
[/quote]



Proprioception is felt by every healthy human...every shot, subconsciously.

A shank, feels like sh^t.

A perfect shot has its own feeling, that no one can describe to another.

Isnt that what makes us obsessive about this game? what makes practicing addictive?

Ben Hogan said the greats learned by imitation and feel before they learned mechanics.

He didn't need to take a lesson or read a book about how to wipe his a^^ either.