Mike Shannon, THANK YOU!

[Moonlightgrm]

I've been playing golf for 46 years. I am currently a 4-handicap. Recently I found Mike Shannon's putting tips on line. I learned things I'd never considered by watching his library of tips. Today, I put them in to practice on the golf course, primarily his philosophy of "staying tight" and maintaining elbow flex while rocking your shoulders.

 

Results: I hit my usual 9 of 14 fairways and 11 greens in regulation. Instead of shooting 76 or 77, I carded a 72 by taking 29 putts. I'm a stat guy and have been averaging 33.7 putts per round this season. Mike's teachings worked for me today. The results were immediate. To say I am excited is an understatement. I recommend every golfer check out his on-line videos.

 

Here's to more putting improvement!!

[Cwing]

Link?

[Moonlightgrm]

Here you go: http://www.golfersmd.com/GolferMD_Experts/id/2.aspx

[Cwing]

Thank you. I discovered him on golf academy live several years ago and had been following the tucked elbows rule since.

[Juan73]

[quote name='Moonlightgrm' timestamp='1410561475' post='10108837']
I've been playing golf for 46 years. I am currently a 4-handicap. Recently I found Mike Shannon's putting tips on line. I learned things I'd never considered by watching his library of tips. Today, I put them in to practice on the golf course, primarily his philosophy of "staying tight" and maintaining elbow flex while rocking your shoulders.

Results: I hit my usual 9 of 14 fairways and 11 greens in regulation. Instead of shooting 76 or 77, I carded a 72 by taking 29 putts. I'm a stat guy and have been averaging 33.7 putts per round this season. Mike's teachings worked for me today. The results were immediate. To say I am excited is an understatement. I recommend every golfer check out his on-line videos.

Here's to more putting improvement!!
[/quote]

I have taken a couple of lessons from Mike. He is great to work with.... though very expensive, as are all the folks at Sea Island. I have seen him 3-4 times since, as we are both University of Tennessee alumni and his daughter lives about an hour away from me. Mike played on the golf team at UT in the 1970s. He absolutely knows his stuff regarding putting (stroke, posture, etc.)

[ChipDriver]

Big fan of Mike Shannon - his "constant ball position" with "elbows tucked" has been the best and longest lasting lesson ever. Made my h-cap drop like a rock and stay there.

[rwfitter]

Mike is a good friend and colleague. We have shared information over the years and he knows his stuff. In general, everything in the putting stroke should be constant, with the stroke length the only variable. "Constant ball position" ensures consistent aim and impact. "Elbows tucked" ensures a constant stroke radius. It is a legal form of "anchoring".

[dornstar]

Mike Shannon's putting methodology completely changed my game.

 

This video (

) has more or less become my putting bible.

 

I've watched that video at least 100 times and probably once a week do the same video analysis since he outlines all the positions you're suppose to be in. This is from yesterday....

 

 

Posture from the back of the neck to the belt to the back of the feet should be between 111-118 degrees. Putter should be in line with the forearms and the arm angle should be less than 135 degrees. Eyes over or just inside ball. From face on, the shaft should run to a point between the left ear and left shoulder. Mine is still too centered which is a byproduct of using a SeeMore putter for years. The anchor points should match up. I still have a tendency to lose the connection on the forward stroke and get too long, but it's GREATLY improved. When I started this process, my setup was ALL OVER THE PLACE from day to day. It's no wonder I was a crappy putter.

 

 

Face rotation for most pros is typically in the 3-6 degree range 6" back and 6" past impact, so total rotation of 6-12 degrees. A good collegiate player is usually in the 20-24 degree range. When I started this, I was 30+ degrees and have reduced it to under 24 degrees. This has greatly improved my consistency from day to day and is the hardest aspect to improve. I NEVER would have guessed that I had that much face rotation. It just doesn't "feel" like it's opening and closing that much, but it is.

 

 

For the stroke itself, it should stay on the target line for that same 6" back and past impact and then move slightly inside. When I first started, my putter could work both too far inside and then cross the line or too far outside to to far inside. Cleaning this up has also made a huge difference. I didn't realize how inconsistent I was.

 

 

Right now, I've been putting better than I have in my entire life and only feel like that will improve as I get cleaner.

[dornstar]

[quote name='Juan73' timestamp='1411085982' post='10143807']
[quote name='Moonlightgrm' timestamp='1410561475' post='10108837']
I've been playing golf for 46 years. I am currently a 4-handicap. Recently I found Mike Shannon's putting tips on line. I learned things I'd never considered by watching his library of tips. Today, I put them in to practice on the golf course, primarily his philosophy of "staying tight" and maintaining elbow flex while rocking your shoulders.

Results: I hit my usual 9 of 14 fairways and 11 greens in regulation. Instead of shooting 76 or 77, I carded a 72 by taking 29 putts. I'm a stat guy and have been averaging 33.7 putts per round this season. Mike's teachings worked for me today. The results were immediate. To say I am excited is an understatement. I recommend every golfer check out his on-line videos.

Here's to more putting improvement!!
[/quote]

I have taken a couple of lessons from Mike. He is great to work with.... though very expensive, as are all the folks at Sea Island. I have seen him 3-4 times since, as we are both University of Tennessee alumni and his daughter lives about an hour away from me. Mike played on the golf team at UT in the 1970s. He absolutely knows his stuff regarding putting (stroke, posture, etc.)
[/quote]
Out of curiosity, how much does he charge? I've been thinking about driving up from Florida to take a lesson. I figured it would be expensive, but haven't checked into the rates yet.

[rwfitter]

Nice presentation dornstar. My only comment for others interested in this thread is that the posture angles presented should not be considered hard and fast rules. Mike's angles are averages based upon measured tour players. However, folks are built differently. A good example would be Steve Stricker. He stands closer to the ball than most, but has a significant slump in his upper spine. Keagan Bradley maintains a fairly straight spine, stands miles from the ball, and bends over more at the hips. My other comment would be that most manufacturers have finally adjusted their equipment to the green speeds. No longer are putters equipped with 4+ degrees of loft, they have dialed it down. Therefore, there is no real need for shaft lean. Your SeeMore set up with the butt end centered because there is minimum loft. I like that.

If you go through a session with Mike, one of the first things he will address is alignment. He has a very cool tool called LASER OPTICS. It is a high powered green laser that will demonstrate your putter alignment. You can do it on straight or breaking putts outdoors. It is truly eye-opening because significant misalignment plagues over 60% of golfers. And I am proud to say that LASER OPTICS is my little creation.

Cheers.

[dornstar]

[quote name='rwfitter' timestamp='1415831426' post='10437217']
Nice presentation dornstar. My only comment for others interested in this thread is that the posture angles presented should not be considered hard and fast rules. Mike's angles are averages based upon measured tour players. However, folks are built differently. A good example would be Steve Stricker. He stands closer to the ball than most, but has a significant slump in his upper spine. Keagan Bradley maintains a fairly straight spine, stands miles from the ball, and bends over more at the hips. My other comment would be that most manufacturers have finally adjusted their equipment to the green speeds. No longer are putters equipped with 4+ degrees of loft, they have dialed it down. Therefore, there is no real need for shaft lean. Your SeeMore set up with the butt end centered because there is minimum loft. I like that.

If you go through a session with Mike, one of the first things he will address is alignment. He has a very cool tool called LASER OPTICS. It is a high powered green laser that will demonstrate your putter alignment. You can do it on straight or breaking putts outdoors. It is truly eye-opening because significant misalignment plagues over 60% of golfers. And I am proud to say that LASER OPTICS is my little creation.

Cheers.
[/quote]
Great post and that's awesome about the Laser Optics. I'll be looking forward to using it when I set up an appt with Mike.

As far as the posture, arm position, etc., I'm not necessarily worried about hitting an exact range, but rather I've found that 117-118 posture / 134-135 arm angle to be comfortable for me with Mike's connected stroke. Once I found MY posture numbers that works, that's what I'm looking for on a daily or weekly basis for consistency. It falling within Mike's recommended range is a bonus. It gave me a framework for a road map for what I'm trying to do pretty much all aspects of putting. As a systematic golfer, I found this to be exactly what I needed. I have old videos of my putting stroke and it is flat out amazing how much my setup changed from day to day and how consistent it has become since going to this.

I am concerned about the face rotation. Man, that's just a hard fix. I don't feel like I have any rotation going on in the stroke and I'm not even remotely close to getting down to pro numbers. As Mike says in the video, it can take 6 months to clean it up, so I'll keep working on it.

[4puttJohnny]

Dornstar -- which version of V1 is that? Mine doesn't display degree angles like that and that's what I've been searching for.

[dornstar]

[quote name='4puttJohnny' timestamp='1415849341' post='10438715']
Dornstar -- which version of V1 is that? Mine doesn't display degree angles like that and that's what I've been searching for.
[/quote]
LOL, mine doesn't either.

I have a Tumblr page that I use to record everything I do in golf as sort of my personal journal and I'll do the analysis on my computer, but use screenshots from my phone and put the information onto the pictures just so it looks better. Sorry to tease you there.

[4puttJohnny]

Dadgummit! I thought you had discovered plutonium or something and I wanted in on the action! LOL

[dornstar]

[quote name='4puttJohnny' timestamp='1415850824' post='10438857']
Dadgummit! I thought you had discovered plutonium or something and I wanted in on the action! LOL
[/quote]
I know, right?

I don't think the people who make these apps actually play golf because I've tried them all and every one of them is lacking in one way or another.

[rwfitter]

I believe one of the problems of measuring rotation is... what is normal square to path, and what is created by the hands. Since every path will vary based upon setup, true rotation (what is created by the hands) can be hard to accurately measure.

But, if you really want feedback on true rotation, get one of my Putting T-Bars. Mike incorporates the T-Bar in his instruction. The T-Bar will correct the problem.

[Hstead]

I think I am going to video myself and observe these check points. I have an idea of finding out the true face rotation while staying square to the path. I have a putting plane board and the clip to attach to the heel of the putter so the guide rests on the plane board and makes certain the face is square to the plane and line. I can video some strokes using those training aids and measure those to compare with the real stroke.

[Golf nerd]

Mike Shannon's putting methodology completely changed my game.

 

This video (

) has more or less become my putting bible.

 

I've watched that video at least 100 times and probably once a week do the same video analysis since he outlines all the positions you're suppose to be in. This is from yesterday....

 

 

Posture from the back of the neck to the belt to the back of the feet should be between 111-118 degrees. Putter should be in line with the forearms and the arm angle should be less than 135 degrees. Eyes over or just inside ball. From face on, the shaft should run to a point between the left ear and left shoulder. Mine is still too centered which is a byproduct of using a SeeMore putter for years. The anchor points should match up. I still have a tendency to lose the connection on the forward stroke and get too long, but it's GREATLY improved. When I started this process, my setup was ALL OVER THE PLACE from day to day. It's no wonder I was a crappy putter.

 

 

Face rotation for most pros is typically in the 3-6 degree range 6" back and 6" past impact, so total rotation of 6-12 degrees. A good collegiate player is usually in the 20-24 degree range. When I started this, I was 30+ degrees and have reduced it to under 24 degrees. This has greatly improved my consistency from day to day and is the hardest aspect to improve. I NEVER would have guessed that I had that much face rotation. It just doesn't "feel" like it's opening and closing that much, but it is.

 

 

For the stroke itself, it should stay on the target line for that same 6" back and past impact and then move slightly inside. When I first started, my putter could work both too far inside and then cross the line or too far outside to to far inside. Cleaning this up has also made a huge difference. I didn't realize how inconsistent I was.

 

 

Right now, I've been putting better than I have in my entire life and only feel like that will improve as I get cleaner.

Mike says that a face balanced putter could reduced face rotation. Difference could be up to 8 degrees...

[dcmidnight]

I absolutely cannot recommend Mike enough. I spent two hours with him last summer and it absolutely changed my game. I was languishing @ a 12 hdcp at that point and I am less than half that now. Frankly, I'd recommend anyone at Sea Island. I've worked with Gale Peterson and Jordan Dempsey as well, wouldnt hesitate to recommend either of them. Their facility is also one of the best in the country.

Here's a link to my lesson report from last year - lot of the same stuff though. But again, cant recommend this guy enough.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/873688-my-putting-lesson-with-mike-shannon-sea-island-learning-center-pics-added/

[dornstar]

Mike Shannon's putting methodology completely changed my game.

 

This video (

) has more or less become my putting bible.

 

I've watched that video at least 100 times and probably once a week do the same video analysis since he outlines all the positions you're suppose to be in. This is from yesterday....

 

 

Posture from the back of the neck to the belt to the back of the feet should be between 111-118 degrees. Putter should be in line with the forearms and the arm angle should be less than 135 degrees. Eyes over or just inside ball. From face on, the shaft should run to a point between the left ear and left shoulder. Mine is still too centered which is a byproduct of using a SeeMore putter for years. The anchor points should match up. I still have a tendency to lose the connection on the forward stroke and get too long, but it's GREATLY improved. When I started this process, my setup was ALL OVER THE PLACE from day to day. It's no wonder I was a crappy putter.

 

 

Face rotation for most pros is typically in the 3-6 degree range 6" back and 6" past impact, so total rotation of 6-12 degrees. A good collegiate player is usually in the 20-24 degree range. When I started this, I was 30+ degrees and have reduced it to under 24 degrees. This has greatly improved my consistency from day to day and is the hardest aspect to improve. I NEVER would have guessed that I had that much face rotation. It just doesn't "feel" like it's opening and closing that much, but it is.

 

 

For the stroke itself, it should stay on the target line for that same 6" back and past impact and then move slightly inside. When I first started, my putter could work both too far inside and then cross the line or too far outside to to far inside. Cleaning this up has also made a huge difference. I didn't realize how inconsistent I was.

 

 

Right now, I've been putting better than I have in my entire life and only feel like that will improve as I get cleaner.

Mike says that a face balanced putter could reduced face rotation. Difference could be up to 8 degrees...

In my swing, the difference between this heel shafted putter and my Yes! Tracy 12 faced balanced putter is about 3-4 degrees back and forward or about 6-8 degrees in total rotation. That's a pretty big difference and takes me from around 22* to 15* , but this Odyssey White Ice #3 is the easiest to aim putter that I've ever used and the way it looks to me at address inspires confidence... and that is every bit as important.

[dornstar]

[quote name='rwfitter' timestamp='1415895898' post='10440919']
I believe one of the problems of measuring rotation is... what is normal square to path, and what is created by the hands. Since every path will vary based upon setup, true rotation (what is created by the hands) can be hard to accurately measure.

[/quote]
The amount of measured rotation isn't necessarily the rotation you have in the [u]entire[/u] stroke though. Just in the impact region from 6" before the ball to 6" after. If you look at the slow motion strokes of someone like Rory or even Loren Roberts and Ben Crenshaw who all definitely had some opening and closing to their stroke and were pretty free flowing, in that impact zone, there isn't a lot of movement. I also think that's why he has a range that is acceptable vs. a static number, but I agree with the overall premise that reducing your rotation will allow you to be more consistent putt to putt and day to day and that's why when tested most of the better putters had very little (David Toms 6* to Tiger Woods 12*). Past that 12* and you start to venture into the poorer putters. You're not going to find many elite putters that are in that 25+ total rotation range. There's just too much movement.


In the end, whether you take Mike's recommended numbers as gospel or not is up to the individual golfer. There's many that probably wouldn't want to do that, but I'm a systematic guy and like having a blueprint for what I'm trying to do. For my game, it gives me a measurable method and goal for my stroke... and as I've gotten closer to those recommended numbers, my putting has improved dramatically.... as has my consistency day to day. I love it and there's absolutely nothing better than your playing partners noticing the difference. I have got more compliments on my putting the last 2 months than I think I got in my previous 15 years of playing golf combined. I was a REALLY bad putter for a long time and feel like I've turned the corner and my strokes gained data supports that improvement.

[cardoustie]

Great post ... Thx for sharing

[JNZ]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1415849882' post='10438767']
[quote name='4puttJohnny' timestamp='1415849341' post='10438715']
Dornstar -- which version of V1 is that? Mine doesn't display degree angles like that and that's what I've been searching for.
[/quote]
LOL, mine doesn't either.

I have a Tumblr page that I use to record everything I do in golf as sort of my personal journal and I'll do the analysis on my computer, but use screenshots from my phone and put the information onto the pictures just so it looks better. Sorry to tease you there.
[/quote]

Dornstar, what programme are you using to give you the degree angles?

[drewtaylor21]

Mike Shannon's putting methodology completely changed my game.

 

This video (

) has more or less become my putting bible.

 

I've watched that video at least 100 times and probably once a week do the same video analysis since he outlines all the positions you're suppose to be in. This is from yesterday....

 

 

Posture from the back of the neck to the belt to the back of the feet should be between 111-118 degrees. Putter should be in line with the forearms and the arm angle should be less than 135 degrees. Eyes over or just inside ball. From face on, the shaft should run to a point between the left ear and left shoulder. Mine is still too centered which is a byproduct of using a SeeMore putter for years. The anchor points should match up. I still have a tendency to lose the connection on the forward stroke and get too long, but it's GREATLY improved. When I started this process, my setup was ALL OVER THE PLACE from day to day. It's no wonder I was a crappy putter.

 

 

Face rotation for most pros is typically in the 3-6 degree range 6" back and 6" past impact, so total rotation of 6-12 degrees. A good collegiate player is usually in the 20-24 degree range. When I started this, I was 30+ degrees and have reduced it to under 24 degrees. This has greatly improved my consistency from day to day and is the hardest aspect to improve. I NEVER would have guessed that I had that much face rotation. It just doesn't "feel" like it's opening and closing that much, but it is.

 

 

For the stroke itself, it should stay on the target line for that same 6" back and past impact and then move slightly inside. When I first started, my putter could work both too far inside and then cross the line or too far outside to to far inside. Cleaning this up has also made a huge difference. I didn't realize how inconsistent I was.

 

 

Right now, I've been putting better than I have in my entire life and only feel like that will improve as I get cleaner.

 

Dornstar,

 

Just wanted to say thanks for this. I stumbled in here from a link in a current thread and I really like the points you've presented here. Just had a question I was hoping you could clarify though....can you describe the "tucked" elbows technique a bit more? Are the arms/elbows actually pressed into the body in some way? The angles and things make sense and I am working on doing some self-analysis with Mike's guidelines, as my setup is nowhere near what he recommends and I'm very interested in seeing the effect it might have on my putting. Thanks for any additional insight you can offer!

[pinhigh27]

I've never understood why they don't add more features to v1. It's like the most barebones program you could possibly imagine.

[dornstar]

Mike Shannon's putting methodology completely changed my game.

 

This video (

) has more or less become my putting bible.

 

I've watched that video at least 100 times and probably once a week do the same video analysis since he outlines all the positions you're suppose to be in. This is from yesterday....

 

 

Posture from the back of the neck to the belt to the back of the feet should be between 111-118 degrees. Putter should be in line with the forearms and the arm angle should be less than 135 degrees. Eyes over or just inside ball. From face on, the shaft should run to a point between the left ear and left shoulder. Mine is still too centered which is a byproduct of using a SeeMore putter for years. The anchor points should match up. I still have a tendency to lose the connection on the forward stroke and get too long, but it's GREATLY improved. When I started this process, my setup was ALL OVER THE PLACE from day to day. It's no wonder I was a crappy putter.

 

 

Face rotation for most pros is typically in the 3-6 degree range 6" back and 6" past impact, so total rotation of 6-12 degrees. A good collegiate player is usually in the 20-24 degree range. When I started this, I was 30+ degrees and have reduced it to under 24 degrees. This has greatly improved my consistency from day to day and is the hardest aspect to improve. I NEVER would have guessed that I had that much face rotation. It just doesn't "feel" like it's opening and closing that much, but it is.

 

 

For the stroke itself, it should stay on the target line for that same 6" back and past impact and then move slightly inside. When I first started, my putter could work both too far inside and then cross the line or too far outside to to far inside. Cleaning this up has also made a huge difference. I didn't realize how inconsistent I was.

 

 

Right now, I've been putting better than I have in my entire life and only feel like that will improve as I get cleaner.

 

Dornstar,

 

Just wanted to say thanks for this. I stumbled in here from a link in a current thread and I really like the points you've presented here. Just had a question I was hoping you could clarify though....can you describe the "tucked" elbows technique a bit more? Are the arms/elbows actually pressed into the body in some way? The angles and things make sense and I am working on doing some self-analysis with Mike's guidelines, as my setup is nowhere near what he recommends and I'm very interested in seeing the effect it might have on my putting. Thanks for any additional insight you can offer!

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been crazy busy lately and haven't been on the board much for the past month or so. I have continued to work with Mike's methods and have had great success.

 

This video describes the "tucked" or connected position. He talks about it about 1 minute into the video. If you're standing straight up with the arms and putter stretched out in front of you and then retract the arms in until the elbows are against the ribs, that's the connected position. There's actually videos out there where Mike has his tour pros practice with a bungy cord around their arms and body to maintain this connected position. From there, the movement of the club is controlled by the big muscles. Some people feel it in the upper back. Some people sense the movement coming from their chest.

 

 

 

Hope that helps. His methods certainly did help me. My stroke has improved, but more importantly, it's helped me to consistently get into the same position day in and day out which is half the battle. Once you're doing the same thing every single day, you can start to get a better read on your putting. From there, you can start eliminating wasted motion and rotation.

[northgolf]

Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425264091' post='11057767']
Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?
[/quote]

They can. He just wants you to anchor the upper arms against your trunk - not necessarily the elbow per se. "Pull in your pits" was his mantra to me during my lesson - and my elbows did not actually touch my torso.

If the upper arms don't anchor you tend to get handsy and the arms can come off the torso and ruin your putter path's arc.

[northgolf]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1425264279' post='11057807']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425264091' post='11057767']
Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?
[/quote]

They can. He just wants you to anchor the upper arms against your trunk - not necessarily the elbow per se. "Pull in your pits" was his mantra to me during my lesson - and my elbows did not actually touch my torso.

If the upper arms don't anchor you tend to get handsy and the arms can come off the torso and ruin your putter path's arc.
[/quote]

Thanks chip. I'm more sbst, so I don't buy into the arc argument. I'll just bow out of this thread as all I'll do is create arguments.

[dornstar]

Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

 

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?

1. The lie angle doesn't really have anything to do with it. All of my putters have standard lie angles and in no way are flat.

 

2. And it's not about "tucking" the elbows, but having connection... like the old drill where you swing with a towel under your arms. This is done to promote a stroke that is driven by the big muscles rather than the hands.

 

3. As far as elbow angle, Mike's research (which I believe in 10000%) shows that greater than >135* elbow angle increases the face rotation of the putter.

 

4. A huge part of his teaching is limiting face rotation. Note that I didn't say "square to square". The putter will work slightly inside, but in the best putters in the world, there is not a large opening and closing of the the putter face during the stroke. In fact, handicap level almost mirrors the amount of rotation that is seen.

 

 

If you look at me DTL, you can see that I'm not forcing the elbows into the body. As was said, it's "pulling the pits in". It's a gentle connection and having the arms work in unison with the body.