Mike Shannon, THANK YOU!

[northgolf]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425265042' post='11057905']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425264091' post='11057767']
Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?
[/quote]
1. The lie angle doesn't really have anything to do with it. All of my putters have standard lie angles and in no way are flat.

2. And it's not about "tucking" the elbows, but having connection... like the old drill where you swing with a towel under your arms. This is done to promote a stroke that is driven by the big muscles rather than the hands.

3. As far as elbow angle, Mike's research (which I believe in 10000%) shows that greater than >135* elbow angle increases the face rotation of the putter.

4. A huge part of his teaching is limiting face rotation. Note that I didn't say "square to square". The putter will work slightly inside, but in the best putters in the world, there is not a large opening and closing of the the putter face during the stroke. In fact, handicap level almost mirrors the amount of rotation that is seen.


If you look at me DTL, you can see that I'm not forcing the elbows into the body. As was said, it's "pulling the pits in". It's a gentle connection and having the arms work in unison with the body.

[/quote]

1) Who asked anything about flatness relative to standard lie angle?
2) Connection is anchoring, I don't buy the over connection of the glove under the armpit for the full swing, why would I buy it for putting?
3) Is that reseach dominated by the over connection concept, in which case the answer is "of course".
4) If you are teaching limiting face rotation, then why anchor/connect to an axle as that forces face rotation.

Seems like a trade off of compensations. I really need to get out of this thread.

Tofu tastes great. Bye.

[dornstar]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425266160' post='11058011']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425265042' post='11057905']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425264091' post='11057767']
Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?
[/quote]
1. The lie angle doesn't really have anything to do with it. All of my putters have standard lie angles and in no way are flat.

2. And it's not about "tucking" the elbows, but having connection... like the old drill where you swing with a towel under your arms. This is done to promote a stroke that is driven by the big muscles rather than the hands.

3. As far as elbow angle, Mike's research (which I believe in 10000%) shows that greater than >135* elbow angle increases the face rotation of the putter.

4. A huge part of his teaching is limiting face rotation. Note that I didn't say "square to square". The putter will work slightly inside, but in the best putters in the world, there is not a large opening and closing of the the putter face during the stroke. In fact, handicap level almost mirrors the amount of rotation that is seen.


If you look at me DTL, you can see that I'm not forcing the elbows into the body. As was said, it's "pulling the pits in". It's a gentle connection and having the arms work in unison with the body.

[/quote]

1) Who asked anything about flatness relative to standard lie angle?
2) Connection is anchoring, I don't buy the over connection of the glove under the armpit for the full swing, why would I buy it for putting?
3) Is that reseach dominated by the over connection concept, in which case the answer is "of course".
4) If you are teaching limiting face rotation, then why anchor/connect to an axle as that forces face rotation.

Seems like a trade off of compensations. I really need to get out of this thread.

Tofu tastes great. Bye.
[/quote]
1. There's a difference between no face rotation and limited face rotation. To have no face rotation (square to square) requires a manipulation of the hands. Obviously, if your goal is a big muscle driven stroke to reduce the role of the hands, that's not going to work. As you said, because you're turning around an axis, there will be some rotation, but there are factors which [u][b]DO[/b][/u] influence the amount of face rotation such as the setup, how the arms work in relationship to the body and putter type. That's why Mike advocates certain body positions (elbow angle <135*, spine angle 111-118*, etc). Some variables increase rotation. Others take it out.

2. You don't have to "buy" anything. If you don't agree with something, that's your choice. It doesn't mean your stance is right or wrong nor does it mean Mike's methods are right. It just means that it works for some people and obviously, many people do like what Mike Shannon brings to the table. For myself, simply have a framework in which I can analyze my own putting and work towards a consistent setup and stroke has been a HUGE for my game. I know what I am trying to do and I work at trying to perfect that one method everyday.

[northgolf]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425268939' post='11058395']
1. There's a difference between no face rotation and limited face rotation. To have no face rotation (square to square) requires a manipulation of the hands. Obviously, if your goal is a big muscle driven stroke to reduce the role of the hands, that's not going to work. As you said, because you're turning around an axis, there will be some rotation, but there are factors which [u][b]DO[/b][/u] influence the amount of face rotation such as the setup, how the arms work in relationship to the body and putter type. That's why Mike advocates certain body positions (elbow angle <135*, spine angle 111-118*, etc).

[/quote]

The requirement of a "manipulation of hands" is based on the idea that the shoulders are tightly coupled to the spine (surprise, this thread is based on tight connection). There is no skeletal connection of the shoulder to the spine and there are enough degrees of free floatation that they can rock back and forth enabling a sbst swing which does not imply hand manipulation. Yes, the relationship of the hands to body only applies when you make the false postulate (in regards to putting, not the full swing), that there is necessarily a hand/body relationship.

I just keep getting dragged back into this hole. Seriously, I'm out now.

[dornstar]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425269781' post='11058511']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425268939' post='11058395']
1. There's a difference between no face rotation and limited face rotation. To have no face rotation (square to square) requires a manipulation of the hands. Obviously, if your goal is a big muscle driven stroke to reduce the role of the hands, that's not going to work. As you said, because you're turning around an axis, there will be some rotation, but there are factors which [u][b]DO[/b][/u] influence the amount of face rotation such as the setup, how the arms work in relationship to the body and putter type. That's why Mike advocates certain body positions (elbow angle <135*, spine angle 111-118*, etc).

[/quote]

The requirement of a "manipulation of hands" is based on the idea that the shoulders are tightly coupled to the spine (surprise, this thread is based on tight connection). There is no skeletal connection of the shoulder to the spine and there are enough degrees of free floatation that they can rock back and forth enabling a sbst swing which does not imply hand manipulation. Yes, the relationship of the hands to body only applies when you make the false postulate (in regards to putting, not the full swing), that there is necessarily a hand/body relationship.

I just keep getting dragged back into this hole. Seriously, I'm out now.
[/quote]
Yes, you're right... but also completely missing the point.

Regardless of whether it's hand, arm or shoulder that control the stroke, it's just that... a small muscle stroke that's based on the swinging of the arms from the shoulders. That does in fact works for some players. Some of the best putters the game has ever seen have been arm dominated putters. That DOES NOT mean it works for everyone. For others (including a huge portion of professionals today), we're looking at limiting the role of the arms in the putting stroke and making it body driven motion. If you have a body driven stroke, there will be face rotation because you're putting with the turning of the axis rather than the swinging of the arms. In order to reduce that rotation though, simple setup changes can be made to counter it... and that's the premise of Mike Shannon's methods.... let the body rather than the arms do the work and setup in a manner to reduce the face rotation. Nothing more... nothing less.

We're not reinventing the wheel here. Most players on tour today are body driven putters that are trying to limit the role of the hands and arms. This is only tweaking that to increase face consistency which is critical for good putting.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425264665' post='11057861']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1425264279' post='11057807']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425264091' post='11057767']
Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?
[/quote]

They can. He just wants you to anchor the upper arms against your trunk - not necessarily the elbow per se. "Pull in your pits" was his mantra to me during my lesson - and my elbows did not actually touch my torso.

If the upper arms don't anchor you tend to get handsy and the arms can come off the torso and ruin your putter path's arc.
[/quote]

Thanks chip. I'm more sbst, so I don't buy into the arc argument. I'll just bow out of this thread as all I'll do is create arguments.
[/quote]

North:

I don't think that WE are arguing - sorry if I gave that impression. Just discussing.

Despite not accepting "arc" - here's the important thing about Mike's method and SBST - even with Mike's method - there is a 12-16" portion of his swing where the putter goes dead-straight along the target line. For 12-16" Mike's method and SBST are precisely and exactly - the same.

[Jacob Mac]

So what causes face rotation, and how do you minimize it?

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425301764' post='11059601']
So what causes face rotation, and how do you minimize it?
[/quote]

The fact the swing is traveling on an arc, and that it's attached to your hands and arms when it's swung will naturally rotate the face - albeit slowly. If you think of the swing path like a tilted hula hoop - here is the tilted hula hoop arc (plane of the club) that travels from square (address) to inside (as you backswing and turn to the right) - back to square (impact zone) - then back inside (after impact and you swing left). That rotates the face.

IMO you don't need to minimize it. That should sound like good news for you.

The good thing is that in a normal putting stroke - there is naturally a 12-16" portion of the swing where the putter/clubhead is traveling in a dead straight line with a straight face. In Shannon's method - you reduce variation by using constant setup and constant ball position - so that you can help to better identify that 12-16" area of your own swing. Once you do that - just rotate your body/shoulders - you don't have to manipulate your hands and arms to try to keep it "SBST".

[dornstar]

So what causes face rotation, and how do you minimize it?

There's a few factors.

 

1. Style of putter - a heel weighted putter will have 6-8* more face rotation than a face balanced putter.

 

2. Posture - the more upright your posture, the more the club will swing around you on an arc and increase the face rotation. Think of a tether ball that swings around the pole. The more vertical the pole, the more it swings around. Mike suggests a 111-118* posture from the back of the neck to the back of the belt line to the back of the shoes.

 

3. Elbow angle - the straighter your arms, the more the club will want to arc and open/close. Mike wants an elbow angle of < 135*.

 

4. Shaft to forearm - Mike wants the shaft and the forearms in line. If the hands are lower, the club will want to open and close more.

 

 

 

Based on his research, putter face rotation mirrors a player's overall skill level and he measures the face rotation at 6" in the backstroke and 6" past contact... which is that 12" zone that ChipDriver spoke of.

 

Poor putters will often have in excess of 30* of rotation (15 on the way back + 15 forward). I had 31-32* when I first started with this and it's no coincidence that I sucked putting. Good amateurs and college players are usually in the 20-24* range which is the range I am in now at 20-22*. Poor pros have learned to tighten their stroke up even more and are in the 15-18* or so range. The elite putters on tour have tested to have between 6-12* of total face rotation. Starting direction of a putt is dictated by the face angle primarily and the tighter the face rotation, the more consistent you can be from day to day.

[Jacob Mac]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425324910' post='11062379']
[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425301764' post='11059601']
So what causes face rotation, and how do you minimize it?
[/quote]
There's a few factors.

1. Style of putter - a heel weighted putter will have 6-8* more face rotation than a face balanced putter.

2. Posture - the more upright your posture, the more the club will swing around you on an arc and increase the face rotation. Mike suggests a 111-118* posture from the back of the neck to the back of the belt line to the back of the shoes.

3. Elbow angle - the straighter your arms, the more the club will want to arc. Mike wants an elbow angle of < 135*.

4. Shaft to forearm - Mike wants the shaft and the forearms in line. If the hands are lower, the club will want to open and close more.


Based on his research, putter face rotation mirrors a player's overall skill level. Poor putters will often have in excess of 30* of rotation (15 on the way back + 15 forward). I had 31-32* when I first started with this and it's no coincidence that I sucked putting. Good amateurs and college players are usually in the 20-24* range which is the range I am in now. Poor pros have learned to tighten their stroke up even more and are in the 15-18* or so range. The elite putters on tour have tested to have between 6-12* of total face rotation. Starting direction of a putt is dictated by the face angle primarily and the tighter the face rotation, the more consistent you can be from day to day.
[/quote]

Ksgolfcoach taught me this method last summer. And I like it a lot. But we never discussed face rotation. And now I see why, he had me doing everything else you mentioned, so it takes care of itself it seems. Now I just need to get better at aiming. Thanks for the answer.

[dornstar]

[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425325525' post='11062461']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425324910' post='11062379']
[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425301764' post='11059601']
So what causes face rotation, and how do you minimize it?
[/quote]
There's a few factors.

1. Style of putter - a heel weighted putter will have 6-8* more face rotation than a face balanced putter.

2. Posture - the more upright your posture, the more the club will swing around you on an arc and increase the face rotation. Mike suggests a 111-118* posture from the back of the neck to the back of the belt line to the back of the shoes.

3. Elbow angle - the straighter your arms, the more the club will want to arc. Mike wants an elbow angle of < 135*.

4. Shaft to forearm - Mike wants the shaft and the forearms in line. If the hands are lower, the club will want to open and close more.


Based on his research, putter face rotation mirrors a player's overall skill level. Poor putters will often have in excess of 30* of rotation (15 on the way back + 15 forward). I had 31-32* when I first started with this and it's no coincidence that I sucked putting. Good amateurs and college players are usually in the 20-24* range which is the range I am in now. Poor pros have learned to tighten their stroke up even more and are in the 15-18* or so range. The elite putters on tour have tested to have between 6-12* of total face rotation. Starting direction of a putt is dictated by the face angle primarily and the tighter the face rotation, the more consistent you can be from day to day.
[/quote]

Ksgolfcoach taught me this method last summer. And I like it a lot. But we never discussed face rotation. And now I see why, he had me doing everything else you mentioned, so it takes care of itself it seems. Now I just need to get better at aiming. Thanks for the answer.
[/quote]
No problem.

I don't focus on face rotation when I'm actually putting on the course, but it is something that I check once a week. When I first hit the putting green, I'll take a quick video of my putting from DTL and check my body angles for that day. If I'm off, I'll make the corrections. The goal is to do the same thing everyday. Then I'll practice with a putting mirror which has been a huge help to improving my aim. It's amazing how much your eye lines and positions alter the way you see the line. For me, I need my eyes dead over the ball or I start to see the line to the right. For others, they need their eyes slightly inside the ball. One day a week, I'll do 2 quick high speed videos of my putter path from DTL and face on which I'll usually measure later in the evening. It's just a way for me to keep tabs on my improvement of the stroke as I work to make it "tighter" and more efficient.

[Jacob Mac]

Looks like I definitely need to get a face balanced putter.

[dornstar]

Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

 

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?

 

They can. He just wants you to anchor the upper arms against your trunk - not necessarily the elbow per se. "Pull in your pits" was his mantra to me during my lesson - and my elbows did not actually touch my torso.

 

If the upper arms don't anchor you tend to get handsy and the arms can come off the torso and ruin your putter path's arc.

 

Thanks chip. I'm more sbst, so I don't buy into the arc argument. I'll just bow out of this thread as all I'll do is create arguments.

 

North:

 

I don't think that WE are arguing - sorry if I gave that impression. Just discussing.

 

Despite not accepting "arc" - here's the important thing about Mike's method and SBST - even with Mike's method - there is a 12-16" portion of his swing where the putter goes dead-straight along the target line. :) :) For 12-16" Mike's method and SBST are precisely and exactly - the same.

Exactly.... in the 12" middle section of my stroke, there's virtually no arc off the line. Once the club moves outside that 12" zone like in the foward stroke in the pic below, the club starts to work slightly inside. If the putter works across that line, it means that I've lost connection and my elbows are working away from the body.

 

[dornstar]

[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425327273' post='11062651']
Looks like I definitely need to get a face balanced putter.
[/quote]
It can help, but there needs to be a balance between reducing face rotation and the ability to aim, feel, etc. Limiting face rotation allows you to more consistently strike the ball, but it shouldn't be done at the detriment of the other things.

For me, I said the same thing about "needing" a face balanced putter and while I'm definitely more consistently start the ball online with my Yes! Tracy 12 and it reduces my rotation to 14-16*, I aim and have better feel with the heel balanced Odyssey White Ice #3 in the pic above which I have 20-22* rotation. I just feel more confident with it although I do have more putts that I slightly push or pull offline. The end goal is to reduce rotation to tighten up the stroke, but there needs to be a marriage with the other elements of putting.



Here's a video from last month of me making 74 straight putts from 10' on a quick left to right downhill that breaks about 12". The day before, I made 98 straight. I'm using a putting mirror, but it's still not an easy putt. 6 months ago, there's NO WAY I could have come close to this. I just had too many moving parts before. I still have work to do particularly with not using my arms to power the stroke, but my putting has improved DRAMATICALLY. There's no magic pill. I've worked my *** off.

[media=]http://youtu.be/OzhvkZWYQcA[/media]

[ChipDriver]

Just a simple question: How much of "tucked elbows" is due to putters having too flat a lie?

 

Why not have the elbows bend at the angle they hang at naturally when you bend over?

 

They can. He just wants you to anchor the upper arms against your trunk - not necessarily the elbow per se. "Pull in your pits" was his mantra to me during my lesson - and my elbows did not actually touch my torso.

 

If the upper arms don't anchor you tend to get handsy and the arms can come off the torso and ruin your putter path's arc.

 

Thanks chip. I'm more sbst, so I don't buy into the arc argument. I'll just bow out of this thread as all I'll do is create arguments.

 

North:

 

I don't think that WE are arguing - sorry if I gave that impression. Just discussing.

 

Despite not accepting "arc" - here's the important thing about Mike's method and SBST - even with Mike's method - there is a 12-16" portion of his swing where the putter goes dead-straight along the target line. :) :) For 12-16" Mike's method and SBST are precisely and exactly - the same.

Exactly.... in the 12" middle section of my stroke, there's virtually no arc off the line. Once the club moves outside that 12" zone like in the foward stroke in the pic below, the club starts to work slightly inside. If the putter works across that line, it means that I've lost connection and my elbows are working away from the body.

 

 

 

I get it.

 

What seems odd to people who haven't tried it - I'm guessing they can't grasp the concept of "arc" and why in the scheme of things arc vs sbst doesn't really matter.

 

Michelle Wie's putting stroke incorporates "connection" with the upper arms a la Shannon, AND probably has the longest "straight" portion of the swing VS either traditional SBST or traditional putting.

[Jacob Mac]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425327904' post='11062735']
[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425327273' post='11062651']
Looks like I definitely need to get a face balanced putter.
[/quote]
It can help, but there needs to be a balance between reducing face rotation and the ability to aim, feel, etc. Limiting face rotation allows you to more consistently strike the ball, but it shouldn't be done at the detriment of the other things.

For me, I said the same thing about "needing" a face balanced putter and while I'm definitely more consistently start the ball online with my Yes! Tracy 12 and it reduces my rotation to 14-16*, I aim and have better feel with the heel balanced Odyssey White Ice #3 in the pic above which I have 20-22* rotation. I just feel more confident with it although I do have more putts that I slightly push or pull offline. The end goal is to reduce rotation to tighten up the stroke, but there needs to be a marriage with the other elements of putting.



Here's a video from last month of me making 74 straight putts from 10' on a quick left to right downhill that breaks about 12". The day before, I made 98 straight. I'm using a putting mirror, but it's still not an easy putt. 6 months ago, there's NO WAY I could have come close to this. I just had too many moving parts before. I still have work to do particularly with not using my arms to power the stroke, but my putting has improved DRAMATICALLY. There's no magic pill. I've worked my *** off.

[media=]http://youtu.be/OzhvkZWYQcA[/media]
[/quote]

Nice. Aiming is definitely my weakest link. I have a lot of work to do in that area.

[dornstar]

I agree 100% ChipDriver.

There's many ways to get it done and this is just one of them. The thing that made me personally gravitate towards Mike Shannon is that he outlines measurable points that I can check myself. People like Stan Utley or a Dave Stockton have great info as well, but I have no clue if I'm on track with their methods. There's no plan. With Mike, I know if my posture or setup is bad. I know if my stroke is off. I can measure it and work towards a consistent pattern and I do it without someone watching me to make sure I'm on track.

And while those are mechanical thoughts, it has freed me up on the course. Knowing that my setup and stroke is sound allows me to focus on my aim and distance control without thinking about the stroke itself. That part of the equation is squared away.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425330266' post='11063039']
I agree 100% ChipDriver.

There's many ways to get it done and this is just one of them. The thing that made me personally gravitate towards Mike Shannon is that he outlines measurable points that I can check myself. People like Stan Utley or a Dave Stockton have great info as well, but I have no clue if I'm on track with their methods. There's no plan. With Mike, I know if my posture or setup is bad. I know if my stroke is off. I can measure it and work towards a consistent pattern and I do it without someone watching me to make sure I'm on track.
[/quote]

Agree - the constant ball position - which is objectively repeatable (you can measure it relative to your left toe tip) also dictates posture. But finding the optimal ball position is essential (and not overly difficult)...then just make it constant.

Impressive video - and I noticed that your set up is almost literally "the same" each time.

Really good stuff.

[dornstar]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1425330480' post='11063065']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425330266' post='11063039']
I agree 100% ChipDriver.

There's many ways to get it done and this is just one of them. The thing that made me personally gravitate towards Mike Shannon is that he outlines measurable points that I can check myself. People like Stan Utley or a Dave Stockton have great info as well, but I have no clue if I'm on track with their methods. There's no plan. With Mike, I know if my posture or setup is bad. I know if my stroke is off. I can measure it and work towards a consistent pattern and I do it without someone watching me to make sure I'm on track.
[/quote]

Agree - the constant ball position - which is objectively repeatable (you can measure it relative to your left toe tip) also dictates posture. But finding the optimal ball position is essential (and not overly difficult)...then just make it constant.

Impressive video - and I noticed that your set up is almost literally "the same" each time.

Really good stuff.
[/quote]
Thanks.

When I first got into Mike's stuff, I started recording my putting and the first thing that I noticed was that my setup was wildly inconsistent. It didn't just change day to day, but putt to putt. It was an eye opener, but in hindsight, it's not surprising. I put very little conscious effort I put into consistently setting up and 99% of the work I put into putting was on the stroke itself. That was the first thing that had to change. I'm so diligent now about my posture, distance from the ball and ball position. Once you take care of those things, the stroke pretty much takes care of itself.

Also, it's not surprising that I was inconsistent setting up to the ball on full swings as well. I recently started working with Wayne DeFrancisco and that was the first thing he pointed out. Before we even got into the swing, we developed a routine to get into the same setup and correct ball position repeatedly.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425331419' post='11063183']
Thanks.

When I first got into Mike's stuff, I started recording my putting and the first thing that I noticed was that my setup was wildly inconsistent. It didn't just change day to day, but putt to putt. It was an eye opener, but in hindsight, it's not surprising. I put very little conscious effort I put into consistently setting up. That was the first thing that had to change and I work on it every single day whether it's on the putting green or at my house on my BirdieBall green. I'm so diligent now about my posture, distance from the ball and ball position. Once you take care of those things, the stroke pretty much takes care of itself.

Also, it's not surprising that I was inconsistent setting up to the ball on full swings as well. I recently started working with Wayne DeFrancisco and that was the first thing he pointed out. Before we even got into the swing, we developed a routine to get into the same setup and correct ball position repeatedly.
[/quote]

Wayne is local here in Maryland - are you nearby?

One of the first things that Shannon told me was how amateurs change set up and in particular - ball position - from putt to putt. I had never realized that myself either. He filmed me hitting 10 putts and showed me that my ball position varied on several of the putts...even by an inch. He showed me that on a 10 foot putt (for example) that if it were 1" too far back that it would result in something like a 4" miss to the right....and most folks would think "my stroke is too far inside out" or "my face is open" and try to correct it. Then the next putt the ball position would be different, and the ball might go to the left. They'd never figure out what was wrong.

When in reality he said "constant ball position" would take care of all of that much better/easier. I never made 75 in a row - but I did feel like I was "a machine" at times. IMO he was right. I've had 2 lessons from him in 10 years. And I didn't really need the 2nd one. Finally feel like as long as my ball position and set up are correct - that I am a very good putter.

Keep up the good work!

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425271035' post='11058619']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425269781' post='11058511']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425268939' post='11058395']
1. There's a difference between no face rotation and limited face rotation. To have no face rotation (square to square) requires a manipulation of the hands. Obviously, if your goal is a big muscle driven stroke to reduce the role of the hands, that's not going to work. As you said, because you're turning around an axis, there will be some rotation, but there are factors which [u][b]DO[/b][/u] influence the amount of face rotation such as the setup, how the arms work in relationship to the body and putter type. That's why Mike advocates certain body positions (elbow angle <135*, spine angle 111-118*, etc).

[/quote]

The requirement of a "manipulation of hands" is based on the idea that the shoulders are tightly coupled to the spine (surprise, this thread is based on tight connection). There is no skeletal connection of the shoulder to the spine and there are enough degrees of free floatation that they can rock back and forth enabling a sbst swing which does not imply hand manipulation. Yes, the relationship of the hands to body only applies when you make the false postulate (in regards to putting, not the full swing), that there is necessarily a hand/body relationship.

I just keep getting dragged back into this hole. Seriously, I'm out now.
[/quote]
Yes, you're right... but also completely missing the point.

Regardless of whether it's hand, arm or shoulder that control the stroke, it's just that... a small muscle stroke that's based on the swinging of the arms from the shoulders. That does in fact works for some players. Some of the best putters the game has ever seen have been arm dominated putters. That DOES NOT mean it works for everyone. For others (including a huge portion of professionals today), we're looking at limiting the role of the arms in the putting stroke and making it body driven motion. If you have a body driven stroke, there will be face rotation because you're putting with the turning of the axis rather than the swinging of the arms. In order to reduce that rotation though, simple setup changes can be made to counter it... and that's the premise of Mike Shannon's methods.... let the body rather than the arms do the work and setup in a manner to reduce the face rotation. Nothing more... nothing less.

We're not reinventing the wheel here. Most players on tour today are body driven putters that are trying to limit the role of the hands and arms. This is only tweaking that to increase face consistency which is critical for good putting.
[/quote]

Good stuff in this thread Dornstar.

I've noticed the word 'we're' in this post a few times. Are you teaching with Mike? Or teaching on your own? Or are you just referring to you and the rest of the group of putters that Mikes method would help? Thanks...

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425326876' post='11062607']
[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425325525' post='11062461']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425324910' post='11062379']
[quote name='Jacob Mac' timestamp='1425301764' post='11059601']
So what causes face rotation, and how do you minimize it?
[/quote]
There's a few factors.

1. Style of putter - a heel weighted putter will have 6-8* more face rotation than a face balanced putter.

2. Posture - the more upright your posture, the more the club will swing around you on an arc and increase the face rotation. Mike suggests a 111-118* posture from the back of the neck to the back of the belt line to the back of the shoes.

3. Elbow angle - the straighter your arms, the more the club will want to arc. Mike wants an elbow angle of < 135*.

4. Shaft to forearm - Mike wants the shaft and the forearms in line. If the hands are lower, the club will want to open and close more.


Based on his research, putter face rotation mirrors a player's overall skill level. Poor putters will often have in excess of 30* of rotation (15 on the way back + 15 forward). I had 31-32* when I first started with this and it's no coincidence that I sucked putting. Good amateurs and college players are usually in the 20-24* range which is the range I am in now. Poor pros have learned to tighten their stroke up even more and are in the 15-18* or so range. The elite putters on tour have tested to have between 6-12* of total face rotation. Starting direction of a putt is dictated by the face angle primarily and the tighter the face rotation, the more consistent you can be from day to day.
[/quote]

Ksgolfcoach taught me this method last summer. And I like it a lot. But we never discussed face rotation. And now I see why, he had me doing everything else you mentioned, so it takes care of itself it seems. Now I just need to get better at aiming. Thanks for the answer.
[/quote]
No problem.

I don't focus on face rotation when I'm actually putting on the course, but it is something that I check once a week. When I first hit the putting green, I'll take a quick video of my putting from DTL and check my body angles for that day. If I'm off, I'll make the corrections. The goal is to do the same thing everyday. Then I'll practice with a putting mirror which has been a huge help to improving my aim. It's amazing how much your eye lines and positions alter the way you see the line. For me, I need my eyes dead over the ball or I start to see the line to the right. For others, they need their eyes slightly inside the ball. One day a week, I'll do 2 quick high speed videos of my putter path from DTL and face on which I'll usually measure later in the evening. It's just a way for me to keep tabs on my improvement of the stroke as I work to make it "tighter" and more efficient.
[/quote]

Hey dornstar, great stuff so far, thanks for all the info. What putting mirror do you use and how does it help your aim? Also, did you find that you need eyes over the ball for best results by trial and error, or was there something that Mike showed you that helped you dial that in? Thanks!

[dornstar]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1425331958' post='11063261']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425331419' post='11063183']
Thanks.

When I first got into Mike's stuff, I started recording my putting and the first thing that I noticed was that my setup was wildly inconsistent. It didn't just change day to day, but putt to putt. It was an eye opener, but in hindsight, it's not surprising. I put very little conscious effort I put into consistently setting up. That was the first thing that had to change and I work on it every single day whether it's on the putting green or at my house on my BirdieBall green. I'm so diligent now about my posture, distance from the ball and ball position. Once you take care of those things, the stroke pretty much takes care of itself.

Also, it's not surprising that I was inconsistent setting up to the ball on full swings as well. I recently started working with Wayne DeFrancisco and that was the first thing he pointed out. Before we even got into the swing, we developed a routine to get into the same setup and correct ball position repeatedly.
[/quote]

Wayne is local here in Maryland - are you nearby?

One of the first things that Shannon told me was how amateurs change set up and in particular - ball position - from putt to putt. I had never realized that myself either. He filmed me hitting 10 putts and showed me that my ball position varied on several of the putts...even by an inch. He showed me that on a 10 foot putt (for example) that if it were 1" too far back that it would result in something like a 4" miss to the right....and most folks would think "my stroke is too far inside out" or "my face is open" and try to correct it. Then the next putt the ball position would be different, and the ball might go to the left. They'd never figure out what was wrong.

When in reality he said "constant ball position" would take care of all of that much better/easier. I never made 75 in a row - but I did feel like I was "a machine" at times. IMO he was right. I've had 2 lessons from him in 10 years. And I didn't really need the 2nd one. Finally feel like as long as my ball position and set up are correct - that I am a very good putter.

Keep up the good work!
[/quote]
No, I live in Florida, but Wayne's parents live in Boca and he teaches down there a few days to a week each month during the colder months. During the summer, it's not as frequent. Nice guy. He definitely knows his golf.

[dornstar]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1425335741' post='11063831']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425271035' post='11058619']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1425269781' post='11058511']
[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425268939' post='11058395']
1. There's a difference between no face rotation and limited face rotation. To have no face rotation (square to square) requires a manipulation of the hands. Obviously, if your goal is a big muscle driven stroke to reduce the role of the hands, that's not going to work. As you said, because you're turning around an axis, there will be some rotation, but there are factors which [u][b]DO[/b][/u] influence the amount of face rotation such as the setup, how the arms work in relationship to the body and putter type. That's why Mike advocates certain body positions (elbow angle <135*, spine angle 111-118*, etc).

[/quote]

The requirement of a "manipulation of hands" is based on the idea that the shoulders are tightly coupled to the spine (surprise, this thread is based on tight connection). There is no skeletal connection of the shoulder to the spine and there are enough degrees of free floatation that they can rock back and forth enabling a sbst swing which does not imply hand manipulation. Yes, the relationship of the hands to body only applies when you make the false postulate (in regards to putting, not the full swing), that there is necessarily a hand/body relationship.

I just keep getting dragged back into this hole. Seriously, I'm out now.
[/quote]
Yes, you're right... but also completely missing the point.

Regardless of whether it's hand, arm or shoulder that control the stroke, it's just that... a small muscle stroke that's based on the swinging of the arms from the shoulders. That does in fact works for some players. Some of the best putters the game has ever seen have been arm dominated putters. That DOES NOT mean it works for everyone. For others (including a huge portion of professionals today), we're looking at limiting the role of the arms in the putting stroke and making it body driven motion. If you have a body driven stroke, there will be face rotation because you're putting with the turning of the axis rather than the swinging of the arms. In order to reduce that rotation though, simple setup changes can be made to counter it... and that's the premise of Mike Shannon's methods.... let the body rather than the arms do the work and setup in a manner to reduce the face rotation. Nothing more... nothing less.

We're not reinventing the wheel here. Most players on tour today are body driven putters that are trying to limit the role of the hands and arms. This is only tweaking that to increase face consistency which is critical for good putting.
[/quote]

Good stuff in this thread Dornstar.

I've noticed the word 'we're' in this post a few times. Are you teaching with Mike? Or teaching on your own? Or are you just referring to you and the rest of the group of putters that Mikes method would help? Thanks...
[/quote]
'We're' was used in reference to golfers that are trying to use these methods and I'm not a teacher. Just a golfer that's fully committed to his philosophies and have studied it as much as possible. I've "drank the Kool-Aid" I guess you could say.

[dornstar]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1425336291' post='11063901']
Hey dornstar, great stuff so far, thanks for all the info. What putting mirror do you use and how does it help your aim? Also, did you find that you need eyes over the ball for best results by trial and error, or was there something that Mike showed you that helped you dial that in? Thanks!
[/quote]
I have two mirrors that I use, both of which are made by EyeLine Golf. I have the small which I keep in my bag and use while practicing or when warming up before a round.

[url="http://www.eyelinegolf.com/products/putting-alignment-mirror"]http://www.eyelinego...lignment-mirror[/url]

And then the large which I use at home on my BirdieBall putting green.

[url="http://www.eyelinegolf.com/collections/putting-aids/products/eyeline-putting-mirror"]http://www.eyelinego...-putting-mirror[/url]

I bought the larger one first and like it the most as it allows me to see how my shoulders are lined up. I have tendency for them to be a little open at address and with the small mirror, you can just barely see your shoulders. The big one doesn't fit in my golf bag though, so I just use it at home.

It helps your aim because your eye line dictates your perception. For example, if your head is cocked to the right a little which is common for a lot of people including myself, you'll typically aim to the right. When your head turns to see the hole or the target, your gaze will follow the angle that you establish at address. Virtually every single golfer on the PGA Tour works with some type of mirror because it is crucial. Here's Rory using the small one I have when he made 55 straight putts on camera while warming up before a tournament.

[media=]http://youtu.be/2mlUKN8QfE8[/media]

Once you get the mirror lined up, it's fairly intuitive to figure out if your aim is off. When I first started using one, getting my eyes parallel to the target line was a challenge. My head just naturally wants to c0ck a little to the right. Usually I'll work with straight puts and it's crazy because I'll line the mirror up dead center with the hole, address the ball and it will look like I'm aimed too far to the right of the target even though I know I'm not. After a month or so of working with the mirror everyday, my perception gradually began to improve, but I still have to work on it and probably will have to for the rest of my life. It's just how my brain perceives things.

[dcmidnight]

When I worked with Mike he had me grip the putter, hold it out in front of me so the putter was parallel to the ground, pull my elbows into my body (still standing vertical) - and then "tip" my upper body over. It was a huge change for me. But again it wasnt/isnt about locking your elbows into your body - its more about getting your torso involved and being less armsy - at least, that was my issue.

My putting arc was 6* going back and 6* after impact before and after working with Mike it was one thing he didnt change. The one thing we really worked on was moving my left shoulder more vertically through/after impact.

I dont know if I have the privacy settings right but I think I have it set so anyone can view them if they have the URL:

http://youtu.be/O5y9p-e0mtw

[dornstar]

[quote name='dcmidnight' timestamp='1425347342' post='11065161']
When I worked with Mike he had me grip the putter, hold it out in front of me so the putter was parallel to the ground, pull my elbows into my body (still standing vertical) - and then "tip" my upper body over. It was a huge change for me. But again it wasnt/isnt about locking your elbows into your body - its more about getting your torso involved and being less armsy - at least, that was my issue.

My putting arc was 6* going back and 6* after impact before and after working with Mike it was one thing he didnt change. The one thing we really worked on was moving my left shoulder more vertically through/after impact.
[/quote]
Yeah, I'm not sure how so much emphasis on the pulling the elbows in to the body came about in this thread. It's really not a forced pinning of the elbows against the body. Like you said, you just extend your arms and retract them in until the elbows touch the body. This achieves some connection and they sort of just ride along as you drive the stroke with the big muscles. Some people feel it in the upper back. Others feel it in the chest. You just don't want your elbows drifting away from the body.

[Golf Ninja]

[quote name='dcmidnight' timestamp='1425347342' post='11065161']
When I worked with Mike he had me grip the putter, hold it out in front of me so the putter was parallel to the ground, pull my elbows into my body (still standing vertical) - and then "tip" my upper body over. It was a huge change for me. But again it wasnt/isnt about locking your elbows into your body - its more about getting your torso involved and being less armsy - at least, that was my issue.

My putting arc was 6* going back and 6* after impact before and after working with Mike it was one thing he didnt change. The one thing we really worked on was moving my left shoulder more vertically through/after impact.

I dont know if I have the privacy settings right but I think I have it set so anyone can view them if they have the URL:

[media=]http://youtu.be/O5y9p-e0mtw[/media]
[/quote]

DCMidnight, thanks for posting this, great stuff. Do you recall how Mike Shannon determined the radius of players 5' to 6' something, was over 100"?

[Golf Ninja]

Dc, do you or anyone that has had a lesson with Mike Shannon know what camera angle he uses when he shows the face angles at 6" before and after impact? I did some tests of known angles at 6" with the lens directed at the 90* address position. The camera angle skews the angles at 6" by 10-12*.

[CougarRed]

> @dornstar said:

> Mike Shannon's putting methodology completely changed my game.

>

 

Sorry for dredging up an old post, but great post dornstar! Thanks for posting that video.

 

I knew Mike in the 1980s. We played a little together, and I caddied for him once. Great guy / great personality / great storyteller. Could hit it a mile.

 

Couldn't be happier for his success.