Right shoulder down bad move

[Golfbeat]

In my search to get rid of the OTT move, I noticed that many people, including well known instructors, were saying: "the right shoulder should move down in the downswing not around". I have been relying on this advice for many years resulting in big pushes and hooks. Only recently, I figured out that the right shoulder should actually stay higher and move around and out to the ball in the downswing. My ball striking has improved dramatically as a result.

 

Anybody else suffered from this "standard OTT advice"?

[Dave D]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1411642627' post='10180321']
In my search to get rid of the OTT move, I noticed that many people, including well known instructors, were saying: "the right shoulder should move down in the downswing not around". I have been relying on this advice for many years resulting in big pushes and hooks. Only recently, I figured out that the right shoulder should actually stay higher and move around and out to the ball in the downswing. My ball striking has improved dramatically as a result.

Anybody else suffered from this "standard OTT advice"?
[/quote]
unfortunately that is the usual advice given to people swinging over the top, drop the right shoulder down and swing massively into out. when in fact the problem is probably due to a backswing too long and/or no tilt in the swing, secondary tilt + right shoulder out towards the ball (at a 90* angle to the spine) is money!

[url="http://youtu.be/Aee8zAlL6sA?list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q"]http://youtu.be/Aee8zAlL6sA?list=UUxM0FrLNVF8tLyGRG9m3a7Q[/url]

[Ghost of Snead]

Monte talks about this toward the end of his wedge video and this is a good video as well ...

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxQI4UKrxN8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxQI4UKrxN8[/url]

The trick is how to best initiate the right shoulder out move ..

[Golf nerd]

[size=4]Here it is possible to take a closer look on the movement of the shoulder girdle:[/size]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX4DZOmTuqI

[Golf nerd]

Or here from the target view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3iuhfJaEI

[nova6868]

I have been working on this very thing lately. Instead of dropping my shoulder and trying to get my hands out to the ball... Working on keeping my right shoulder higher and on shoulder plane, let the shoulder move out and the hands work down.

Edit: this is the feel I have.

Really hard move to change, since it's part of transition and impact. But when i get it going the strikes are almost all pure.

[cornbred19]

it depends on how you interpret right shoulder down...if you do it in a manner that causes your right arm to crash into your side on the downswing, it's bad...the worst advice i ever received was similar...initiate your downswing by feeling like you're crushing something in your armpit...caused my right arm to crash into my side...still creeps back into my swing from time to time and i always fat the shot as a result...when it crops up, i think right shoulder to the ball...that way its down and out to the ball...

[joeunc]

right shoulder works both down and out and, just as the left shoulder works down and in on the backswing, 90's to spine angle. The right elbow leads the right shoulder as it works down and out in front of you.

if you are playing baseball, is your back shoulder not closer to pitcher and the ball when you hit it? Think about it in a golf plane now


It can't be an either or, it can't work down with no out and so on. It has to be a blending of the two.

[Coat Jones]

Sounds like you are walking on the correct path Golfbeat.

Everything stays high during transition, especially the hands. If we don't touch anything up there the directionality of the shoulder movement many are concerned with just happens, because the down then becomes a result of rotational movement about a tilted spine axis.

The three dimensional travel then is, from the top, forward-out-down IF everything stays quiet up top during transition.

Here is a good look @ staying high and intending forward- especially observable during the practice swing as his head takes a peek downrange.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CvH0qHTem0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CvH0qHTem0[/url]

[Ghost of Snead]

Speaking from experience and as an ex-baseball player, the rear shoulder can also drop from excessive lateral movement to start the transition, Similar to a hitter over-striding into a pitch ...

[Golfbeat]

[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1411655510' post='10181341']
Speaking from experience and as an ex-baseball player, the rear shoulder can also drop from excessive lateral movement to start the transition, Similar to a hitter over-striding into a pitch ...
[/quote]

Yes, this has been a factor with me as well. Left side not firm (posting) enough and not turning enough.

[crombienator]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1411648947' post='10180735'][size=4]Here it is possible to take a closer look on the movement of the shoulder girdle:[/size]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX4DZOmTuqI[/quote]

Not to be off topic...but did I see a hip bump to the left during setup for added tilt!?

[Golfbeat]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1411649165' post='10180757']
Or here from the target view:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3iuhfJaEI[/media]
[/quote]

Can't get it better than this! Thanks for posting.

[Jim Waldron]

There are several primary causes of OTT, so first order of business is to be sure that your diagnosis fits your own individual swing.

But I dislike using the term "shoulder" motion when discussing the golf swing since it is possible to use individual shoulder action, which in my opinion, should never happen in a good golf swing.

The "shoulder girdle" as one unit, like a teeter-totter, is a better way of picturing it.

A very common form of OTT is that the shoulder girdle begins to uncoil during Transiton a. too early and/or b. too quickly and/or without enough rightward Tilt. Usually all three for a high handicap golfer.

The Tilt part is sometimes referred to as "right shoulder down" but can be performed incorrectly by the golfer as more of a right arm action,which can excessively flatten the shaft and cause too much in to out path as a result. Or one can indeed simply do too much Tilt.

As always, it is not enough to simply understand the New Move, it is actually doing the New Move to the right degree of motion. Too much or too little becomes a Flaw.

The Rory vid is excellent because it clearly shows the Tilt Switch that I have written about here many times.

One drill that helps my students with this issue is to use the Extremes of too much Tilt = a big push vs not enough Tilt= a big pull or OTT. I have them hit driver and altenately hit a push followed by a pull, for 30 swings or so, then try to hit a straight ball. When they do, they have acheived the right blend of Tilt and rotation.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='crombienator' timestamp='1411656143' post='10181403']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1411648947' post='10180735'][size=4]Here it is possible to take a closer look on the movement of the shoulder girdle:[/size]

[/quote]

Not to be off topic...but did I see a hip bump to the left during setup for added tilt!?
[/quote]

Yes, you have very good eyes!

[MonteScheinblum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aee8zAlL6sA&sns=em

[RossRules]

^^^^^ good stuff here. I watched this video a couple of weeks ago and have been working on this move since. I'm not really focusing on right shoulder down, but just maintaining my shoulder angle through the swing. I will still catch one fat every now and then, but my ball striking has become more solid and consistent since working on it.

[mfm22]

[b]Don't discount proper distance from / to ball. ! [/b]
[b]I tend to crowd the ball and it's hard to get right side through impact from there .[/b]
[b]When I give myself more room [feels strange for now] much easier to come in from good path & plane .[/b]
[b]Easier to get right side down- out and through[/b]

[joshsparham]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1411642627' post='10180321']
In my search to get rid of the OTT move, I noticed that many people, including well known instructors, were saying: "the right shoulder should move down in the downswing not around". I have been relying on this advice for many years resulting in big pushes and hooks. Only recently, I figured out that the right shoulder should actually stay higher and move around and out to the ball in the downswing. My ball striking has improved dramatically as a result.

Anybody else suffered from this "standard OTT advice"?
[/quote]

This standard OTT advice has haunted me for years....I get under plane coming into the ball and must rely on a well timed flip to hit it straight. My good days are good and my bad days are terrible

[Grayback1973]

Is there a difference in these 2 photos as far as the right shoulder working "down" ?? I think so very much.I am very steep and It each is substancially shallower.His right shoulder is WAY lower than mine in the same exact spot of the downswing!

[joeunc]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1411680237' post='10184005']
Is there a difference in these 2 photos as far as the right shoulder working "down" ?? I think so very much.I am very steep and It each is substancially shallower.His right shoulder is WAY lower than mine in the same exact spot of the downswing!
[/quote]

Dan looks like he was bent over a little more he rotated perfectly 90' to spine, You seemed to have stood up a little but it could be the difference in clubs

[Grayback1973]

Correct Joe,I do stand up a bit through impact and Dan stays in his posture which forces him to keep his right arm bent somewhat coming into impact,otherwise he would hit a foot behind the ball.I,on the other hand,have to stand up to make room for my right arm to straighten or thrust into impact.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1411687067' post='10184525']
Correct Joe,I do stand up a bit through impact and Dan stays in his posture which forces him to keep his right arm bent somewhat coming into impact,otherwise he would hit a foot behind the ball.I,on the other hand,have to stand up to make room for my right arm to straighten or thrust into impact.
[/quote]

Yes and No.
You are casting the club and your body is anticipating that you will hit a foot behind the ball. For that reason you have to implement both moves simultaneously: keeping posture and keeping lag angle.
The casting and losing posture are related, they are a pair. You can't do one without the other!

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1411714664' post='10186471'][quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1411687067' post='10184525']
Correct Joe,I do stand up a bit through impact and Dan stays in his posture which forces him to keep his right arm bent somewhat coming into impact,otherwise he would hit a foot behind the ball.I,on the other hand,have to stand up to make room for my right arm to straighten or thrust into impact.
[/quote]

Yes and No.
You are casting the club and your body is anticipating that you will hit a foot behind the ball. For that reason you have to implement both moves simultaneously: keeping posture and keeping lag angle.
The casting and losing posture are related, they are a pair. You can't do one without the other![/quote]Keeping lag angle and staying in posture=pro golf swing! Much easier said than done!

[Golf nerd]

It takes time, courage and lots of repetition to ingrain the move. But once you have done it a few times correct you will realize that it really works for you as well. That will motivate a lot and keep you going...

[Sean2]

I was watching Golf Channel a few months ago and Henrik Stenson was on explaining the way he swings a golf club. He said he uses his right shoulder.

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1411854625' post='10196239']
I was watching Golf Channel a few months ago and Henrik Stenson was on explaining the way he swings a golf club. He said he uses his right shoulder.
[/quote]

My right shoulder is also what I "use" for my swing. I turn too flat and overrotate my hips when I am off and to help I think of my shoulders as one piece, or plane if you want to use that, and use the feeling of turning my left shoulder toward the ball (backswing) and then my right should into the ball (downswing). Works well for me

[Sean2]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1411855293' post='10196301']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1411854625' post='10196239']
I was watching Golf Channel a few months ago and Henrik Stenson was on explaining the way he swings a golf club. He said he uses his right shoulder.
[/quote]

My right shoulder is also what I "use" for my swing. I turn too flat and overrotate my hips when I am off and to help I think of my shoulders as one piece, or plane if you want to use that, and use the feeling of turning my left shoulder toward the ball (backswing) and then my right should into the ball (downswing). Works well for me
[/quote]

A friend of mine...a low single digit...also uses his right shoulder. He hits the ball extremely well.

[bruinsPATSirish]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1411855535' post='10196329']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1411855293' post='10196301']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1411854625' post='10196239']
I was watching Golf Channel a few months ago and Henrik Stenson was on explaining the way he swings a golf club. He said he uses his right shoulder.
[/quote]

My right shoulder is also what I "use" for my swing. I turn too flat and overrotate my hips when I am off and to help I think of my shoulders as one piece, or plane if you want to use that, and use the feeling of turning my left shoulder toward the ball (backswing) and then my right should into the ball (downswing). Works well for me
[/quote]

A friend of mine...a low single digit...also uses his right shoulder. He hits the ball extremely well.
[/quote]

When I am executing this it is wonderful. It is crazy how when I hit a bad shot (usually a hook for me) I can just feel and see where I am after my swing and know it was because of a flat turn. I wish I could practice more than I do to really groove it, but pretty much any time I have off I am headed for the tee box.

[Sean2]

[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1411856063' post='10196389']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1411855535' post='10196329']
[quote name='bruinsPATSirish' timestamp='1411855293' post='10196301']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1411854625' post='10196239']
I was watching Golf Channel a few months ago and Henrik Stenson was on explaining the way he swings a golf club. He said he uses his right shoulder.
[/quote]

My right shoulder is also what I "use" for my swing. I turn too flat and overrotate my hips when I am off and to help I think of my shoulders as one piece, or plane if you want to use that, and use the feeling of turning my left shoulder toward the ball (backswing) and then my right should into the ball (downswing). Works well for me
[/quote]

A friend of mine...a low single digit...also uses his right shoulder. He hits the ball extremely well.
[/quote]

When I am executing this it is wonderful. It is crazy how when I hit a bad shot (usually a hook for me) I can just feel and see where I am after my swing and know it was because of a flat turn. I wish I could practice more than I do to really groove it, but pretty much any time I have off I am headed for the tee box.
[/quote]

I understand, and don't blame you. :-)