Reverse K setup….anyone ever said "screw it?"

[pshabi]

I will cut to the chase, but I'm a beginner who has been trying to use reverse K in my setup. However, I struggle with consistency with it and a lot of the time it just doesn't feel right to me. I'm not abandoning ship, but I was curious….

 

 

…..have any of you ever tried reverse K and ultimately reverted back to a more natural, square stance with success? I'm just looking for some conversation about it and I'm certainly not opposed to hearing some advice on why I would want to stick with it. But, I'm more interested in hearing any stories and examples from those who don't use it.

 

Thanks.

[ej002]

Prob over doing it - it is subtle.

[pshabi]

So I've been told. I've got tendency to overdo everything I work on in my swing. Sometimes I feel like my weight is too far back on my right foot. Also, sometimes I feel like I get back on my heels too much at setup.

I've also read conflicting advice where some say weight should still be 50/50 and where others have said more weight should be on the lead foot. Thoughts?

Finally, the thought of keeping that tilt throughout the backswing and into impact is just so unnatural to me. <Sigh>

[JamesBurg]

I have never used it at setup or in my backswing. Some secondary tilt is necessary in my down and through swing along with the correct amount of hip turn.

[jconroy12]

A golfer will naturally set up with secondary tilt if they are focused on swinging the club to a target. If you take your normal setup, especially with a driver or any of the longer clubs and focus on swinging the club straight to a target as if throwing the club at it. Your central nerves system or subconscious or whatever will tell you that you are restricted or don't have room to perform the action you want. You will automatically start to setup with some secondary tilt until your brain says ok, now I have room to swing the club at the target.
When our focus is swinging the club to the ball, we don't need any secondary tilt as their is no restrictions in the action.
Secondary tilt is not something you do because you are told by instruction or anywhere else that you have to. It is done automatically if you take your focus away from the ball and focus on swinging the club through to a target.

[Reasonability]

Like all things in golf - there will always be too much and not enough of just about anything from the grip to the finish pose. If the ONLY driving force and imagery a golfer has orbits around the reverse K - he is just about as likely to end up in trouble as isolating the swing down to any one single part of the interrelated parts. You can put all the gas in the tank you want but if the spark plugs don't fire - you aren't going anywhere AND there are a lot of systems between the gas tank and the spark plugs.

One thing that helps me personally is to differentiate a little bit between the terms 'reverse K' and 'secondary spine tilt'. This is a personal differentiation and may make no sense at all to others -- but to me they are not exactly the same thing. The former becomes more visibly and physically noticeable as the clubs get longer and the stance widens. But there is always a hint of the latter even with the shorter clubs.

If the goal is to say "screw it" and look for other and personally better ideas, feels, and imagery -- go for it. Because I can't chuck the whole idea doesn't mean you can't. I personally wouldn't go there but do whatever you need to do to fly that rock and have fun.

[bph7]

What ej said. it's VERY subtle. As to weight distribution etc, there really isn't just one answer that is correct, unfortunately, "it depends" is as specific as it can get.

[TB07]

I also agree that your probably over doing it. "Natural" would be to have some. The trail arm is on the club lower than the lead arm so you should naturally have a little. Also the common amatuer fault of having arms stuck behind and flipping the wrists will make you instinctively avoid any reverse K.

[larrybud]

[quote name='pshabi' timestamp='1411702893' post='10185961']
…..have any of you ever tried reverse K and ultimately reverted back to a more natural, square stance with success? I'm just looking for some conversation about it and I'm certainly not opposed to hearing some advice on why I would want to stick with it. But, I'm more interested in hearing any stories and examples from those who don't use it.
[/quote]

What makes you think a reverse K isn't a square stance?

To me, the reverse K *is* "natural", because your right hand goes below the left (to a righty), which naturally lowers your right shoulder and tilts your spine away from the target.

[russc1597187869]

There has been a great deal of misinformation about secondary tilt and the reverse K that has been posted on Golfwrx and other internet sources over the years

First the reverseK is a separate concept from secondary tilt.

The reverseK is nothing more than setting up with the left hip on a vertical line over you left heel

Secondary tilt involves tilting your hips((pelvis) so that your left hip(pelvis) is higher than your right hip( pelvis).A little right lateral bending of the spine may or may not be be present but it is a minor player compared to the tilting of the pelvis.
When a golfer grips the club with his right hand lower than the left ,he will naturally tilt his shoulders away from the target.Doing so will also tilt his middle(thoracic) spine away from the target.Tilting the hips(pelvis) by a similar amount will tilt the lower spine(lumbar) and will result in the alignment of both spines.

Why should a golfer use the reverseK.It basically presets weight left (about% 60-65) at setup.
What advantage is this?It means that the amount of lateral movement during transition while NOT eliminated will be minimized .
What clubs should be used with the reverseK.ONLY short irons.By setting up with a significant amount left a steeper blow is encouraged.Short irons require such a steeper blow.
Should the reverseK be used with a driver .NO.NO.NO..The driver requires a much more shallow,up and out blow than short irons .Setting up with the majority of ones weight on the left leg encourages a steeper blow
Do all top players use the reversek with short irons ?NO.But they do move more laterally in transition than those who do use the reversek.Is this a compensation to correct a previous error.NO it just requires more lateral movement in transition
Is overdoing the reversek (setting up with the hip beyond that vertical line) a problem?YES. And potentially a significant one .Setting up with your left hip beyond the vertical line of the reversek will make it biomechanically more difficult to rotate.It is much better to have no reversek than to overcook it
Bottom line the REVERSEK simplifies the swing in that it minimizes the amount of lateral motion in transition,but it is not necessary

Getting back to secondary tilt
What are the advantages of secondary tilt at setup?
Golfer need to load into their right leg at the top.Aligning both spines facilitates doing so with a absolute minimum of LATERAL movement
IF the middle(thoracic) spine is tilted while the lower(lumbar) spine remains vertical and in place ,most golfers can not completely load into the right leg at the top.So what do they do ? They sway a small amount at their hips to reorient the position of their lower (lumbar) spine to the right.Then they can load into their right leg at the top.Some touring pros do this and are not effected significantly.But for many players of lesser abilities this sway leads to a much bigger one and there swing is ruined.Setting up with hip tilt helps to avoid this problem
And setting up with little or no secondary tilt(hip tilt) can lead to other problems in the downswing.Because a golfer bends to the ball with the pelvis anteriorly(forward) tilted at setup and because the right leg will tend to straighten while the left leg will to tend to bend gong back,it is quite natural for the right pelvis to rise and the left pelvis to lower going back.In a full backswing. this can result in changes in tilt of the pelvis by about 10 degrees. .Because secondary tilt is required in the lower downswing ,some golfers are not able to overcome this 10 degrees of negative secondary tilt at the top..

To the op
Forget about the reversek for now ,but you need secondary tilt at the hips

[alfredson10]

It's all about experimenting with it and seeing how much you need. I'm 6'4" and I use a lot with my driver and barely any with my irons. Really helps me keep a smooth swing with my driver.

[cornbred19]

depends on your issue...mine has always been too much of a sway off the ball during the backswing...presetting some weight on my left foot has helped with that and made my ball striking more consistent...if you're concerned about over doing it, check it in a mirror from time to time or up against a wall...

[JamesBurg]

[quote name='JamesBurg' timestamp='1411709552' post='10186309']
I have never used it at setup or in my backswing. Some secondary tilt is necessary in my down and through swing along with the correct amount of hip turn.
[/quote]

Of course at address my right shoulder is lower than my left, but I do that easily with my shoulder joints, and I do not do the close to straight line thing with my left arm and clubshaft. I guess some try to emulate the impact position at address, but that is an exercise in futility. Why? Because the body position at address and the body position at impact are way different.

Hey, there's a thought. Setup in a good impact position, then slomo your swing backward to the address position. See if you learn anything. Just kidding (I think).

[PJ72]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1411732026' post='10187479']
I also agree that your probably over doing it. "Natural" would be to have some. The trail arm is on the club lower than the lead arm so you should naturally have a little. Also the common amatuer fault of having arms stuck behind and flipping the wrists will make you instinctively avoid any reverse K.
[/quote]

Yes. Instead of just lowering the right shoulder to 'reach' the right hand lower on the grip, tilting the spine allows you to reach the lower right hand grip without contorting the right shoulder to get it there. The right shoulder isn't going to want to stay in that position for long.

Crucially, it gives you more room to get your right elbow just ahead of the right hip approaching impact.

[Doppelganger]

I'm new to golf too. Reverse K felt very strange to me when I first started doing it, and after hitting the range and missing the ball 3 or 4 times I said screw it and went back to having fun smashing golf balls. So I thought about it and the idea of using the same busted swing and expecting to get better actually sounded terrible to me. I tried reverse K a few more times and eventually realized all I actually need to do is push my hips towards the target a little and commit to the change. After a few weeks I couldn't imagine lining up any other way.

I'm glad I made the change in hind sight. It helped me with the obvious mechanical advantages, but I also realized I was practicing this game completely wrong. Really what I should have done to start with after making the change was to verify I was doing it right, which I wasn't. Once I was doing it right and wasn't practiced in it, I'd slip back to old habits because it was more fun... but killed the progress I was making.

[hdgolf44]

No reverse K for me, it's never felt "natural" and seemed forced TBH when I tried it.

With the reverse K, I always had trouble keeping my left hip over my left heel, as I've always been someone who moves off the ball a little more than usual. That didn't mesh well with the reverse K and some EE, and resulted in lots of blocks to the right. My right shoulder often felt unnaturally low, needing too many other moves to get the ball flying somewhat straight again..

Needless to say, the experiment didn't last long, back to a more natural feeling stance, which produces some unforced, natural secondary tilt.

[Grayback1973]

Well,in my thread I posted some pics of me in this set-up and then at the top of my backswing.I have a very difficult time keeping that left line all the way up to the top.Set up seems good,but then backswing is VERY complicated because my teacher(Iteach)wants me to maintain the left side line(hip,ankle,knee)throughout the swing.I just can't get comfortable with the backswing when set up in this reverse k.VERY unnatural feeling for me.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1411880529' post='10197913']
Well,in my thread I posted some pics of me in this set-up and then at the top of my backswing.I have a very difficult time keeping that left line all the way up to the top.Set up seems good,but then backswing is VERY complicated because my teacher(Iteach)wants me to maintain the left side line(hip,ankle,knee)throughout the swing.I just can't get comfortable with the backswing when set up in this reverse k.VERY unnatural feeling for me.
[/quote]
Do not worry about your left knee,since it will naturally move on a small arc towards the ball when you rotate your hips.If your left knee knee remained on a vertical line ,your hip turn would be truncated
If you do NOT sway laterally at the hips ,you will be able to maintain your angles

[mfm22]

Reverse K may be an exaggerated move for some ..even sounds bad !

I wish I had known how important Secondary tilt was earlier ! I started using it more this year and it's huge for me .
I 'll set up with primary tilt forward & then make sure i have some secondary tilt of spine away from target .
It's subtle but more natural than you think- trailing shoulder should be lower at set up = hand is lower on grip.

This has helped me turn around my spine angle,stay on plane & come down from inside -on plane
It's almost an automatic downswing ,feels more fluid . Now I will admit to taking some xtra time at set up to feel just right .
Once I feel ready I go , less sing thoughts [always one or two]
Set up is probably the most under rated position in golf - take your time and get it right ..
Remember it's a matter of degrees ,grip ,posture ,turn etc it's all what works for you not Adam Scott etc..

[UstaCouldPlay]

[quote name='pshabi' timestamp='1411704476' post='10186079']
So I've been told. I've got tendency to overdo everything I work on in my swing. Sometimes I feel like my weight is too far back on my right foot. Also, sometimes I feel like I get back on my heels too much at setup.

I've also read conflicting advice where some say weight should still be 50/50 and where others have said more weight should be on the lead foot. Thoughts?

Finally, the thought of keeping that tilt throughout the backswing and into impact is just so unnatural to me. <Sigh>
[/quote]

I think a video by Derrik Hooper as I recall explaining SliceFixer setup will help you. He shows that when the right hip moves down and the left hip up and left- the only way to get the spine BACK in straight alignment is to slighlty increase the secondary tilt he uses alignment to illustrate the point a light bulb went off forme when I saw that video.

[Picitup]

I have been playing golf now for about 5 years! I have worked very hard to get better. I wish when I started someone would have grabbed me and made me work two things. My Grip and setting up with my left hip higher than my right. I have fought my right knee straightening and coming over the top for years. I just started working on my left hip about a month ago. Wow! It would be exhausting to list all the issues in my swing that were addressed. Still working to make it permanent and natural. I don't give much swing advice as a 10 hdcp but trust me stick with it!

[jurr80]

The reverse K is taught because it keeps our spine in alignment at address. The hip tilt matches the shoulder tilt. Because we put one hand lower on the club than the other, our shoulders have 5-8 degrees of tilt.

Bumping the hip over that same amount makes the upper and lower spine line up, making the pivot a little easier.

Where we screw it up (and I screwed it up a TON for a LONG time) is trying to get that hip bump correct.

When you start doing this move (and I have seen MANY attempt it), the tendency is to do a full body tilt. The guy has the club in his hands already (which means he already has shoulder tilt), then when he bumps the hips, he is also bumping the shoulders more. Death move.

What you did was kink the spine up again. The shoulders are now more angled than the hips, which negates the whole damn reason you are attempting the reverse K in the first place!

If your hands on the club naturally angled your shoulders 5-8 degrees, then you tilted them more as you hip bump, you have more shoulder tilt than the hips. Bad news.

The secret I found is to learn to take the club in the hands at address, then hold the upper body still as you make the slight hip bump move. The right hip goes down and in. The left hip is bumping out. The shoulders DO NOT MOVE.

Now your hips are tilted at 5-8 degrees while your upper body maintains its natural 5-8 degree tilt (which happened when you put your right hand lower than the left on the club).

Now the spine is lined up. Turning is much easier. You'll feel your right a** cheek and groin light up with tension as you turn into the backswing.

If you're screwing it up on the course...if your swing gets all out of whack,.the first thing to check is if you are getting lazy with that setup.

Grip it with two hands. Set your feet. Slight bump with the hips and not the shoulders. After that is set, you can alter the weight distribution to the front or back foot, depending on the club.