How to draw the ball

[HipCheck]

GREAT article from our own Dennis Clark. Hope it helps like it did for me.

http://www.golfwrx.com/80421/you-can-learn-to-hit-a-draw/
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For many golfers, the most coveted shot in golf is the draw, that beautiful shot that starts down the right side of the fairway and curves back to the center.[/size][/color]
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And I’ve got good news, even for you slicers it’s not that hard of a shot. Even if you’ve never hit a true draw, you can learn to do it time after time. You just need to understand why a draw happens, and how you can achieve those circumstances at impact.[/size][/color]
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The very first thing to understand about hitting a draw is it involves two things — the position of the club face and the direction of the swing, which need to work together.[/size][/color]
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You see, the golf ball curves as a result of the clubface’s direction [i]relative to its the path,[/i] not relative to its target line. So even if the clubface is open to the target line, a ball can still draw as long as the clubface is closed to the direction of the swing.[/size][/color][color=#000000][size=4]
Yes, it seems complicated, but what it basically boils down to is that if you hope to hit a draw, you have to hit the ball from the inside. and the clubface has to point slightly left of your swing path, which means that you’re going to have to release the club.[/size][/color][color=#000000][size=4]
[b]To do this, first you have to see the inside.[/b][/size][/color]
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Get a good visual in your mind what the inside is and where it is. The inside is defined as the area between you and the target line. The golf club must arrive at impact on that side of the target in order to hit a draw. See a path approaching the target line from your side of the ball.[/size][/color]
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When I play, I like to think of the target line as a wall; you might visualize something else, but I suggest thinking of it as something you can not hit.[/size][/color]
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A good swing arrives from inside that wall and exits after impact back to inside the wall. So if the idea is to “stay inside the wall,” the very first thing you need to do is give yourself some room to swing from the inside. And the best way to do that is to [i]turn your shoulders[/i] in the backswing and get the hands and club behind you. That will give you some room to swing from the inside.[/size][/color]
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If there is no turn, and the hands and club swing simply swing above you, you are too close to the wall and will have no room to arrive from the inside.[/size][/color]
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One word of caution on this point: I am not suggesting that you pull the hands and club too far in behind you (from there, you will have to come out and crash into the wall). I am saying that the shoulders turn and the hands swing up over the rear shoulder. So if you slice, or you cannot draw the ball, the first thing you should concentrate on is a good full shoulder turn in the backswing.[/size][/color]
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[b]Now that you have created some room from the inside, you can take advantage of it by getting the arms and club down from that area. The sequence will be: Turn, swing down, turn.[/b][/size][/color]
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You probably understand what turn means — turn behind the ball, and turn through the ball — but the “swing down” part might baffle you, so let me explain, because it’s very important.[/size][/color]
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If the shoulders open too early on the downswing, which can happen when a golfer focuses too much on “turning” during the early portion of the downswing,” a golfer has no chance to hit the ball from the inside.[/size][/color]
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He or she will be forced to move their hands outside, which creates a hand path that is horizontal, not vertical, which is needed for a draw.[/size][/color]
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That’s why many teachers advocate having their students “keep their back to the target” during the downswing, or simply try keeping their shoulders closed a little longer on the downswing to keep the arms coming from the inside (see the Sergio video to see what I mean by getting the arms to fall, not push out).[/size][/color][color=#000000][size=4]
[b]The other key component to the draw is getting the golf club on a plane from where you can release it into impact. [/b][/size][/color][color=#000000][size=4]
In the Sergio video, notice how he “lays the shaft down” to get onto a lower plane to enter impact. When the golf club is on a very vertical plane, the face is often left open, and there is a reverse rotation of your hands and arms into impact, which drastically opens the club face.[/size][/color]
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A good drill to feel this is to hit balls from a sidehill lie with ball well above the feet. You will feel a more “baseball-like” swing from the inside, which gets the shaft to “lay down.” This gets it under the arms, which is critical to face control.[/size][/color]
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That’s why it is not enough to simply hit from the inside, because if the shaft is too vertical and the hands come in high, it is difficult to feel the proper release on the lower plane to control the face. My favorite golf scientist and researcher, Dr. Sasho Mackenzie describes it best:[/size][/color]
[indent]
[b]“[/b]Starting the club below the swing plane generated positive angular momentum about the longitudinal axis of lead arm resulting in the club face completely squaring at impact. Starting the club above the swing plane generated negative angular momentum resulting in the clubface remaining significantly open to the target line at impact. Minor deviations (less than 5 cm) of the club from the swing plane can significantly affect the longitudinal rotation of the club, and thus a golfer’s ability to square the clubface. The results also suggest that the club can rotate through 90 degrees, about the longitudinal axis of the forearm in order to square the clubface for impact without a muscular torque producing supination.”
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Those terms are more technical than I communicate to my students, but basically what Dr. Mackenzie is saying is this: turning and releasing from the inside is the key to drawing the golf ball.[/size][/color]
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Finally, a few considerations about set up: If you struggle to hit a draw, you may want to favor a slighly back ball position and a slighly stronger left hand grip. Also, be sure that your upper body is tilted a little to the right (if you’re a righty).[/size][/color]
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If you still can’t hit a draw, you can even try closing your shoulders and cocking your head a little to the right, which might help help you see and feel the inside. This is considered setting up “strong” on the inside, and I suggest it for all those who want to learn to draw the ball.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]Read more at http://www.golfwrx.com/80421/you-can-learn-to-hit-a-draw/#2WkOyfbQ2JswraYc.99[/size][/color]

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1413894641' post='10324749']
For me, a slightly slower rate of body rotation. I am trying to "point" my chest more just in front of the ball than more at the target like I would a fade. I am not sure that actually happens exactly as I describe, but that is the thought that gets me there.
[/quote]
I agree. My chest feels like it faces the ball on the downswing as my hips separate and lead the parade...versus a fade where I would allow (not force) the chest to turn.

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1413911361' post='10326499']
Setup to hit a fade and I can count on double crossing myself.
[/quote]

There is a lot more truth to that than some recognize. I've hit a draw from both open and closed stance. All the suggestions above are valid. In simplest terms such as: "Open to the target, closed to the path".

This could confuse some, but knowing that the ball will always start out in the direction the club face is "facing" , ([b][size=2][size=3]I don't like that word "pointing h[/size]ere[/size][/b]) if you open the club face a little, you can see that the ball should start out to the right. If you then drop your trail foot back a little and swing along that line (path) making sure you maintain the same face angle. the club face although still open to the original target line, will be slightly closed to the new path. The difference between these two will determine how much the ball will curve back towards the target. That's the way it is "supposed" to work. So, why doesn't it always? Mostly because your body makes compensations to something that feels a little strange. This is what enables some to hit a draw from an open stance, owing to the fact that they can still swing along a path that sets up that differential between target line and actual path. One way I make sure the face angle does not change, is to hold it out in front of me,(waist high) turn the club (open) in my hands before taking the grip, and then take the grip and set up to the target, drop right foot back without changing anything in the grip. Now I have the proper face angle and simply swing on a path parallel to my feet (out to the right). After impact you will be turning back to the left. In - out - in. A lot of words to say the same thing, but what works for me.

Maybe the suggestion should be "Open to the target line, a little *less* open to the path. The reason I mention that is to prevent over doing it by closing the face too much (consciously or not). I know when I set up properly, It does not really look like the face is closed to the path, I just have to trust that it is.

Caveat: I'm a mid-capper, but have learned what works (for me). I may not have the best explanations, or use the most up to date terminology, but I definitely can relate. Now...back to the experts....

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1413923442' post='10328055']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1413905812' post='10325851']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1413895283' post='10324795']
Face closed to path. The more the face is closed the more curve. Toe shots help too
[/quote]

/|\ This is all you need to know. Anything else is just over-complication.

BT
[/quote]

for a draw that starts right of target, club path has to be inside to out, along with,

clubface closed to the path

If path is outside to inside with club ace closed to path=pull hook/duck hook
[/quote]

Inside-out to what? Does the OP know what you are referring to? Has he read the NBFLs and does he understand that launch monitors do not know how your body is aligned? This is the crap that discourages people.

BTW, it's inside-out to final target line by your description. If the OP relates his club path to his [b]stance[/b] (like normal people used to), he could actually curve the ball to the pin with an outside-in path, as long as the relationship between the face and the path are correct. All he has to do is aim his body far enough right and pull-hook it to the pin. Is that the way it SHOULD be done? Not especially. But we REALLY don't know how the guy swings, do we?

BT

[Optima Golf]

[quote name='TheCityGame' timestamp='1413918740' post='10327415']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1413913129' post='10326713']
be very careful what you wish for.......
[/quote]Someone posted a really funny "golf progress" thing here once. It was funnier than this, but paraphrasing. . .

1) I'm hitting fade and want more distance
2) How do I hit a draw
3) Oh, that's nice.
4) How do I stop hitting hooks
5) For the love of god how do I get back to fading the ball.
[/quote]

Haha. So true. This was me for about a month after going from fades to hitting perfect draws for a long time. then snap hook city and all i wanted was to hit a fad. finally at the point where i can just hit both when i need to.

[LUMA]

A few different ways to go about it and it's up to you to find what fits.

- Setup normally with a slightly closed club face, take grip, and hit normally.
- Swing more out to the right
- Turn the club face over more through the impact area
- Ball farther back in stance.

For me, it depends on the situation and how I am feeling. I like to incorporate many different things into a draw. Mix and match, if you will.

[Mudguard]

Learn to hook the ball. Once mastered, try hit a cut=tiny draw.

[TheCityGame]

[quote name='Mudguard' timestamp='1414054529' post='10337265']
Learn to hook the ball. Once mastered, try hit a cut=tiny draw.
[/quote]That's sort of an interesting statement to me.

Any more thoughts on it?

I've personally gone through that progression. The last stage of that came about when I made a pretty significant grip change, from VERY STRONG to what I consider neutral. I've driven the ball better since that lesson than ever before in my life, over a longer period of time. I don't always drive the ball great, but I've basically removed all fear of duck hooks/smother hooks.

[mikah]

For a draw club path is inside to outside, relative to the target line.
Club face is closed relative to the path.

BT,
Whats difficult or confusing about that?

The OP didn’t ask how to swing inside to out. That is a different topic.
IMO, we aim fire arms and bow and arrow; not golf clubs or tennis rackets.
Good luck with that.

BTW the topic is how to draw the ball.

ie ball starts right of target and moves back to the target for a draw.(right handed swinger)

A hook starts at the target and moves away from it, IMO.

[Dinosaur]

This topic always seems to end up everybody saying the same thing, then debating over what was said. Reminds me of the cartoon show (not Family guy, but something similar) where the family from Laos moves in next door, and the guy asks: "Are you Chinese or Japanese?", the guy explains "We are Laotian". The other then says " oh, so then are you Chinese or Japanese?"

[fjk]

King of the hill

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='fjk' timestamp='1414079538' post='10338683']
King of the hill
[/quote]

Bingo...that's right. I just had a senior moment and could not remember.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1414073435' post='10338055']
For a draw club path is inside to outside, relative to the target line.
Club face is closed relative to the path.

BT,
Whats difficult or confusing about that?
[/quote]

With that information, does the OP adjust his stance or attempt to change his path to relate to what you are saying? He doesn't know for sure. I have seen numerous posts from those attempting to change their natural swing path ie swing more inside-out, in relation to their body, to work the ball. It's not necessary or preferrable. The only people who should be changing their path that are those with substantial swing flaws. If those who have developed a fairly repeatable swing try to do this, it can ruin what game they have. If you just teach them how to adjust the clubface with their grip and aim at the proper place, they hit these shots with ease.

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1414073435' post='10338055']
The OP didn’t ask how to swing inside to out. That is a different topic.
[/quote]

He sure didn't and that's why I didn't mention it in my initial post.

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1414073435' post='10338055']
IMO, we aim fire arms and bow and arrow; not golf clubs or tennis rackets.
Good luck with that.

BTW the topic is how to draw the ball.

ie ball starts right of target and moves back to the target for a draw.(right handed swinger)

A hook starts at the target and moves away from it, IMO.
[/quote]

That's the thing about opinions, everyone has a different one. Well, we can't base definitions on opinion or we never will know what the heck is going on. Definitions of terms like hook and draw were agreed upon a long time ago and you would do well to educate yourself on them. As Dino points out, it's all in the terminology. Draw and fade are slight curvature. Hook and Slice are large (usually out of control) curvature. There is no presupposed start direction. That is how those shots have been described since the terms were created. Whether or not you end up where you want to depends on where you AIM (balls intended start line). BTW, I have had very good luck with that. You should try it sometime. There were also pushes and pulls which are errant straight shots to the right or left of your intended start line.

The terms push-draw, pull-draw, push-fade and pull fade came about with the popularity of launch monitors because they can only relate to the target line, not the alignment of your stance. Also, for many years,the terms inside-out and outside-in pertained to the clubheads path in relation to your stance because your feet and shoulder alignment was what you used to AIM your shots. LMs have also caused a change in those terms so that they are now considered to be related to the target line instead of where you're AIMING.

And, YES, I understand that everyone does not align their feet parallel to the target line. BUT, they ARE consistent in how the align themselves to the target line. If not, then they will not be consistent at all. And that is an indisputable fact.

Intentionally curving your shots is a simple process.

1. Learn your normal path in relation to your stance (yes it will vary slightly with your skill level, but it has consistency).
2. Aim your body so that the path is to the desired side of you target.
3. Adjust your grip on the club so that, at impact, the ball will start slightly toward the target in relation to your path.
4. Watch and see if the amount of curvature is what you wanted. If not continue to adjust things until you know how much adjustment will give the desired curve.

That process will work every time if you do your due diligence and learn the details of your swing. Still, it is nothing more than educating yourself on path to face relationship.

BT

[Dinosaur]

awhile back, I posted this as how I set up alignment rods in back yard to practice these concepts:

[attachment=2471149:diamond.png]

[bradz1810]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Looking forward to getting more consistent this winter and hopefully being able to draw the ball.

[mikah]

Your correct about opinions, which is why I specified path and clubface relative to path.

most golfers think of a draw as starting right of the target line.




Read Hipchecks post no 31, October 21:

“For many golfers, the most coveted shot in golf is the draw, that beautiful shot that starts down the right side of the fairway and curves back to the center
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/80421/you-can-learn-to-hit-a-draw/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/80421/you-can-learn-to-hit-a-draw/[/url]

That’s why it is not enough to simply hit from the inside, because if the shaft is too vertical and the hands come in high, it is difficult to feel the proper release on the lower plane to control the face. My favorite golf scientist and researcher, Dr. Sasho Mackenzie describes it best:”

[indent=1]
[b]“[/b]Starting the club below the swing plane generated positive angular momentum about the longitudinal axis of lead arm resulting in the club face completely squaring at impact. Starting the club above the swing plane generated negative angular momentum resulting in the clubface remaining significantly open to the target line at impact. Minor deviations (less than 5 cm) of the club from the swing plane can significantly affect the longitudinal rotation of the club, and thus a golfer’s ability to square the clubface. The results also suggest that the club can rotate through 90 degrees, about the longitudinal axis of the forearm in order to square the clubface for impact without a muscular torque producing supination.”[/indent]

Read more at http://www.golfwrx.com/80421/you-can-learn-to-hit-a-draw/#xzr0t5PVIpSsD1vy.99

[Dinosaur]

My head hurts...You guys made me confuse myself (not)...I think I will just go and read the Arm Swing Delusion (not).

[iteachgolf]

Like I said get face closed to your path. Once you get the ball drawing then simply shift everything right until it finishes at the target.

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1414110951' post='10341513']
Like I said get face closed to your path. Once you get the ball drawing then simply shift everything right until it finishes at the target.
[/quote]

yup...like I said....King of the Hill Syndrome.

[Reasonability]

^^^

Dino I think its great you practice faithfully and relate to you're diamond sketch. Its your own way. Its how you manage what are essentially the same ball flight laws BT and others suggest. HOW you do that specifically, be it your setup, or manipulating path, a tweak to your grip, or all of the above.... that one is up to you personally no doubt. Sounds like you have your way of computing it and executing that avoids giving you a headache - LOL.

As to how it is discussed on the forum or other threads - the King of the Hill thing. My only small caution - There are golfers and instructors who see it in THEIR own way.

Not criticizing here.... merely sharing as you did. One man's rotary is another man's S&T. Arm swing illusion approaches, (on a forum) are often countered with x-factor believers. Some relate in physiological terms - lumbar discs, pronation, dorsiflexion, etc.. Others focus on "feels" gained via some training aide. The heck of it is... they are all probably right! My only caution being, a headache or "delusion" is someone else's passion. You see the subject of how to draw the ball as pretty straight forward. Good on you! In that sense you are the king of your own hill! There will surely be others who see the topic of drawing the ball in their own way and will express it in their own terms. It's a crooked stick used to send a rock spinning through space.... too bad there isn't one and only one way to define doing just that in terms everyone in the world is OK with. (Then again there would be no WRX in that case).

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1414110951' post='10341513']
Like I said get face closed to your path. Once you get the ball drawing then simply shift everything right until it finishes at the target.
[/quote]

This is exactly the way it should be described. By now, everyone who frequents here should know the BFLs and why golf ball flight curves. It takes only minutes with a decent camera to see what your swing is doing. Once you know how your swing relates to your body, controlling the ball should be obvious. They adjust their clubface to their stance/ body, adjust their body so that the ball starts where they want it to start and , if they have figured correctly, see the ball curve to the pin.

Confusion abounds when the terms PATH, FACE ANGLE, OPEN & CLOSED are not described clearly. The NBFLs often describe path/FA, and their related terms, relative to the target line. However, for years before the NBFLs came into being, the majority of golfers related their path/FA (open/closed) to their stance/body alignment. I have been playing this game for over 40 yrs and only recently have I seen anyone use the term OPEN CLUBFACE when discussing drawing the ball.

Also, it needs to be clear that all of this pertains to impact. As many have stated before, address is not impact. The position of the clubhead can vary considerably between the two. However, golfers tend to relate, in some way, their address position to their intended impact position most of the time. Being a golfer who visually aligns the clubface when taking my grip, I even do not address the ball with the same exact clubface orientation that I expect at impact. The reason being because I believe I need to be fairly relaxed at address for my swing to work properly. When setting my grip, I hold the club somewhat firmly because my grip firms up during the swing. Through experience, I have found that as my grip firms up, the clubface orientation changes slightly (more closed) in relation to my body alignment. So, when I am about to execute a draw shot, my clubface will be pretty square to my stance/body immediately before starting my backswing and slightly closed to my stance/body at impact.

To sum it all up, a golfer must know their swing well and have a consistent swing BEFORE taking on the task of "working" the ball.

BT

[mikah]

[color=#282828]So, when I am about to execute a draw shot, my clubface will be pretty square to my stance/body immediately before starting my backswing and slightly closed to my stance/body at impact.[/color]


[color=#282828]If your knees, hips, shoulders (stance/body) are open at impact (assumption)[/color]
[color=#282828]how is the clubface closed to your stance/body at impact?[/color]

[color="#282828"]or are you comparing the clubface at impact with your stance/body at address?[/color]

[Arpeggi]

Open face of club (1 o clock) and swing path has to be inside out. Draw all day every day.

[Smash Factors]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1

[MonteScheinblum]

There are many ways to hit a draw on target....and some of them are with an out to in path.

It's even possible to hit a draw with a face square or open to the path.

Just thought I'd have a little fun with those who seem to like their absolutes.

[jmvargas]

1) assuming you have a solid repeatable swing try closing the face at address and without changing anything else just let it fly.....OR

2) get an SLDR!!

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1414373775' post='10355315']
[color=#282828]So, when I am about to execute a draw shot, my clubface will be pretty square to my stance/body immediately before starting my backswing and slightly closed to my stance/body at impact.[/color]


[color=#282828]If your knees, hips, shoulders (stance/body) are open at impact (assumption)[/color]
[color=#282828]how is the clubface closed to your stance/body at impact?[/color]

[color=#282828]or are you comparing the clubface at impact with your stance/body at address?[/color]
[/quote]

Yes.

BT

[mikah]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1414427162' post='10357543']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1414373775' post='10355315']
[color=#282828]So, when I am about to execute a draw shot, my clubface will be pretty square to my stance/body immediately before starting my backswing and slightly closed to my stance/body at impact.[/color]


[color=#282828]If your knees, hips, shoulders (stance/body) are open at impact (assumption)[/color]
[color=#282828]how is the clubface closed to your stance/body at impact?[/color]

[color=#282828]or are you comparing the clubface at impact with your stance/body at address?[/color]
[/quote]

Yes.

BT
[/quote]

[color=#282828] " oh, so then are you Chinese or Japanese?"[/color]

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1414393086' post='10356193']
There are many ways to hit a draw on target....and some of them are with an out to in path.

It's even possible to hit a draw with a face square or open to the path.

Just thought I'd have a little fun with those who seem to like their absolutes.
[/quote]

Absolutely!

[PutterKilledTheDream]

The ball tends to draw best if you yell and cuss at it profusely mid flight... " turn over you liitle b&$@h!"