Shaft Length - Effect on Swing Speed?

[Piesman]

Hi all,

 

Let's say my driver swing speed is consistently 95 mph with a 46 inch driver. If I reduce said driver to 43 inch and all other factors remain constant, what will the likely effect be on:

 

a. Swing speed - how much?

 

b. Distance - how much?

 

Is there a simple formula / factor I could use per inch?

[baloo]

No simple formula. The swing speed change is dependent on your release type and probably other things.
Many people can swing as fast or faster with a shorter driver shaft.

[Stuart_G]

If I remember correctly I've seen various references to estimate changes in club head speed from a change in length for a driver (assuming all else is the same) of between 1 mph per 1/2" to 1 mph per inch.

Can't say I've paid much attention to the validity of the sources or those numbers because it's never the case that "all else" really "is the same".

[gvogel]

I think that it depends upon the release point in a person's swing. People with a late release tend to be able to get more speed with a longer shaft. but, there are diminishing returns after one gets to a certain length.

There are probably other factors involved as well, such as total weight of the club.

My advice is to not change your gamer if you have success with it. If the shaft is interchangeable (with an adjustable hosel setup), you could pick up an additional shaft tip, and try a shaft at a shorter length. If your driver has a fixed shaft, you could pick up another used club and change the length on that one.

[Free swingr]

It's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities that you could pick up distance by cutting your driver from 46" to 43"

Most likely the increase in avg. distance would be a byproduct of more center strikes.

[SwingBlade]

For most golfers, any actual speed they gain from a 46" driver is nullified by the ball speed and accuracy lost in return. A 44" driver swing nutted dead center will launch the ball farther, faster, and more accurately than a 45" or 46" driver swing that is 1/2" from optimum contact. Most players should probably be playing a 43" driver that is properly swing weighted. But the ego, particularly the male ego, thrives on that extra 20 yards that occasionally results from the nutted 46" shafted driver which also only occasionally lands the ball in the correct position on the fairway.

We are truly our own worst enemies and the male ego is the greatest obstruction in the pursuit of lower scores in golf.

[matchavez]

Just a counterpoint- the 20 yards is the diff between 6 and 8 iron in. That's not ego alone; that's knowing that executing one gives a better chance to get home.

Not to mention, even if you get a properly weighted 43, nutting it won't happen as much as you think.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Piesman' timestamp='1414645562' post='10372297']
Hi all,

Let's say my driver swing speed is consistently 95 mph with a 46 inch driver. If I reduce said driver to 43 inch and all other factors remain constant, what will the likely effect be on:

a. Swing speed - how much?

b. Distance - how much?

Is there a simple formula / factor I could use per inch?
[/quote]

We've done a lot of work in this area in our fitting research so I can answer this definitively.

The posters who said it depends on the release point in the downswing are right. Longer length only has the chance to result in a higher clubhead speed for golfers who have a later to very late release point in the downswing. This is because for ALL golfers, their highest clubhead speed is achieved when they complete their release. A fraction of a split second after that, the clubhead is slowing down. So if the release is early to midway, this means the max speed is achieved well before the head reaches the ball so the head has plenty of time in the rest of the downswing to slow down. Hence only later to very late release players have the chance to see a higher speed from a longer length.

But even for the later release players, there is no guarantee this will happen because of the other factor involved which is the effect of the longer length on the moment of inertia of the club itself. We;re not talking MOI of the head , we're referring to the MOI of the whole club when it is swung and rotated about our spine during the swing. The longer the length, the higher the MOI of the club. The higher the MOI of the club, the more load/stress the club puts on the swing and the more chance swing characteristics like the path and the release can be negatively affected to result in a lower clubhead speed. In the MOI of the whole club, the length is a squared property in the measurement of the MOI. So even one inch longer in length has a huge effect on the MOI and its resulting load/stress on the golfer's swing - much more than a 20 gram increase in the total weight of the club because weight has much less of an effect on the MOI than the length.

From our work, pretty much the only golfer swing types who can consistently see a higher clubhead speed from a longer length are those with a late release, an inside out to square swing path, a smooth tempo with a well timed acceleration of the club on the downswing and good control over the club with no "jerkiness" during the transition and downswing. But even with these players, the percentage of off center hits with a longer length will increase. Off center hits do lose distance so sometimes even for these smooth control swingers, the gain they get from the longer length is negated by the loss from the off center hit.

Bottom line really is that the industry's move into 45-46" being the standard driver length is one of the dumbest and most damaging things they could possibly do for the vast majority of golfers who simply want clubs with which they can play to the best of their given ability. Doesn't say a whole lot for this trend when you realize that for a very long time,the average driver length on the PGA Tour has been shorter than what the standard driver length has been on the drivers offered by the golf companies that sell their clubs off the rack in retail stores and pro shops.

But you're not likely to see the companies change this anytime soon because they live in fear that anyone would hit some other driver farther than theirs and spread the word that so and so's driver doesn't hit the ball as far as some other companies' drivers. A viral type rumor like that would be tantamount to a kiss of death in the driver industry. So even if there were only one out of every thousand golfers who could hit a longer length driver farther only one out of every ten swings, they have to keep making those drivers longer. And it is too bad it is this way because there are thousands of golfers who have taken the leap of faith to be fit into a shorter driver and do end up playing more consistently, not losing any distance and many times even gaining some distance.

[erock9174]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1414705948' post='10375613']
[quote name='Piesman' timestamp='1414645562' post='10372297']
Hi all,

Let's say my driver swing speed is consistently 95 mph with a 46 inch driver. If I reduce said driver to 43 inch and all other factors remain constant, what will the likely effect be on:

a. Swing speed - how much?

b. Distance - how much?

Is there a simple formula / factor I could use per inch?
[/quote]

We've done a lot of work in this area in our fitting research so I can answer this definitively.

The posters who said it depends on the release point in the downswing are right. Longer length only has the chance to result in a higher clubhead speed for golfers who have a later to very late release point in the downswing. This is because for ALL golfers, their highest clubhead speed is achieved when they complete their release. A fraction of a split second after that, the clubhead is slowing down. So if the release is early to midway, this means the max speed is achieved well before the head reaches the ball so the head has plenty of time in the rest of the downswing to slow down. Hence only later to very late release players have the chance to see a higher speed from a longer length.

But even for the later release players, there is no guarantee this will happen because of the other factor involved which is the effect of the longer length on the moment of inertia of the club itself. We;re not talking MOI of the head , we're referring to the MOI of the whole club when it is swung and rotated about our spine during the swing. The longer the length, the higher the MOI of the club. The higher the MOI of the club, the more load/stress the club puts on the swing and the more chance swing characteristics like the path and the release can be negatively affected to result in a lower clubhead speed. In the MOI of the whole club, the length is a squared property in the measurement of the MOI. So even one inch longer in length has a huge effect on the MOI and its resulting load/stress on the golfer's swing - much more than a 20 gram increase in the total weight of the club because weight has much less of an effect on the MOI than the length.

From our work, pretty much the only golfer swing types who can consistently see a higher clubhead speed from a longer length are those with a late release, an inside out to square swing path, a smooth tempo with a well timed acceleration of the club on the downswing and good control over the club with no "jerkiness" during the transition and downswing. But even with these players, the percentage of off center hits with a longer length will increase. Off center hits do lose distance so sometimes even for these smooth control swingers, the gain they get from the longer length is negated by the loss from the off center hit.

Bottom line really is that the industry's move into 45-46" being the standard driver length is one of the dumbest and most damaging things they could possibly do
[/quote]

Tom
Out of curiosity what would you say the average build length that your shop typically sees ?

[Piesman]

Tom,

Thanks for your insightful and comprehansive reply. For my next driver fitting I will definitely be asking for a shorter shaft.

PS - If I were to cut 2 inches off the butt end of my current shaft, would it alter the swing weight or stiffness in any way. Sorry if this is a dumb qestion but I'm a bit of a novice in this area.

Thanks again.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Piesman' timestamp='1414726881' post='10376941']
Tom,

Thanks for your insightful and comprehansive reply. For my next driver fitting I will definitely be asking for a shorter shaft.

PS - If I were to cut 2 inches off the butt end of my current shaft, would it alter the swing weight or stiffness in any way. Sorry if this is a dumb qestion but I'm a bit of a novice in this area.

Thanks again.
[/quote]

Measured BUTT CPM will raise with the same amount as SW value drops
2 inch = 12 SW points = 12 CPM (about 1 flex)

You will most likely need to add some weight to the head, and then we will notice that it was the stiffest part of the shaft we cut of, so now flex will drop again. How much depend on how much weight you add.

If you know for sure that you will add, lets say 10 grams after cut down, it would be wise to take partly from tip side, partly from butt side, NOT all from butt. Then you can keep the shaft profile as close to original as possible if thats the shaft profile that works for your swing.

Club Length vs Club speed
Tom is right as always, but in a robot, 0.25 inch = 1 mph
1 Mph is optimum 2.5 yards carry

Real life, its not like that, we all have a limit for how long club we can handle, and then we cant gain anything by going longer.
In the end its ALL about your ability to convert club speed to ball speed by a good impact spot, and the longer the club gets, its harder to get a good gear ratio here, so find the max for YOU in terms of club length, and never mind what the fellow next to you plays.

[Piesman]

Thanks Howard.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='erock9174' timestamp='1414716445' post='10376327']

Tom
Out of curiosity what would you say the average build length that your shop typically sees ?
[/quote]

For what we fit and build in our fitting for our local market here in the Durango area, we almost never, ever, ever build a driver for a man that is longer than 44", and there are a good percentage at 43 1/2". For women, never over 42 1/2". And we've never had anyone come back and want it longer.

Among the clubmakers with whom we correspond a lot to answer questions and offer fitting advice and get feedback, the vast majority of the clubmakers do the same thing as us. BUt they will get the occasional golfer who just doesn't want to hear about a shorter length and insists on 45" - so in such cases when the clubmaker states his points about shorter driver length yet the golfer refuses, then in that case you have to do what the customer wants. But we have heard several incidences when in such a case, the golfer comes back in a month or two to have it re-built to be shorter.

I just cannot express strongly enough how bad this has been for the industry to have gradually grown driver lengths from the 43" they ALL were for the first 80 yrs of the 20th century, to where they are today. There has never ever been one shred of evidence that going longer like this with std driver lengths was in anyway good for the vast majority of golfers out there, even for the low hdcps. Yes, as I said, you'll find a golfer here or there who can handle a longer length OK and that's why we teach a lot about what swing characteristics a golfer has to have to be OK with a longer length - so we can teach the clubmakers how to identify who could use one.

But I would bet all the tea in China that if the industry were to all of a sudden shift back to a std driver length of 44 for men and 43 for women, you'd see 80%+ of the golfers immediately gain consistency with the driver over what they experience now using one of these 45-46" drivers for men. And with women, I would go so far to say if the std driver length were reduced to 42 1/2 to 43, the percentage to see improvement would be over 90%.

[SwingBlade]

[quote name='matchavez' timestamp='1414691371' post='10374475']
Just a counterpoint- the 20 yards is the diff between 6 and 8 iron in. That's not ego alone; that's knowing that executing one gives a better chance to get home.

Not to mention, even if you get a properly weighted 43, nutting it won't happen as much as you think.
[/quote]

The actual question is not how often one nuts it at any length. The question is by what margin one misses nutting it on the average swing. If, for example, anyone really believes that they can equally average only a 1/4" miss whether using a 46" or a 43" shafted driver, I think they are deluding themselves.

In that vein, the average 10 to 20 handicap golfer will without question come closer to optimum contact anytime they swing a 43" driver vs a 46/45" driver. The question is how much closer. If it is just a 1/4" closer on average, the golfer hitting the 43" shafted driver will have better actual distance and accuracy stats. Period. Why? Physics. And, a 6 iron from the fairway can pretty much equal or exceed an 8 iron from the rough or from behind that big tree on the right side.

But there is still that overriding fantasy of, "Yeah, but if I nut the 46" driver ..."

[erock9174]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1414766794' post='10378287']
[quote name='erock9174' timestamp='1414716445' post='10376327']

Tom
Out of curiosity what would you say the average build length that your shop typically sees ?
[/quote]

For what we fit and build in our fitting for our local market here in the Durango area, we almost never, ever, ever build a driver for a man that is longer than 44", and there are a good percentage at 43 1/2". For women, never over 42 1/2".
[/quote]

Tom
Thanks for the informative answer. One follow up question.

So say for instance 43.75" is a good avg length based on your comments above. What would a typical build look like ? I know your driver heads accept heavier weights. Something like a 210-215g head with a 65g shaft etc ?
Or do you leave the head around 200g and use an 80-100g shaft ?

Just curious as I have dabbled with drivers clear down to 42.5" (I'm only 5'4"). In terms of FW hit (60%) I had my best results with a 12* driver with a 65g shaft and the head was approximately 213g at 44".

Right now playing a 10* at 45.25" and I choke down a little. (48% FW hit) but I gained about 20 yds on avg. Same amount of balls OB about one per rd with both.

Since I'm not a long hitter 230ish normally even when I miss a FW I'm still in play.

[birly-shirly]

At 43 inches, what's the advantage of a lightweight graphite shaft over traditional steel, other than shock absorption?

[Marand]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1414886327' post='10384683']
At 43 inches, what's the advantage of a lightweight graphite shaft over traditional steel, other than shock absorption?
[/quote]

Speed?

[sniper]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1414766794' post='10378287']
[quote name='erock9174' timestamp='1414716445' post='10376327']

Tom
Out of curiosity what would you say the average build length that your shop typically sees ?
[/quote]

For what we fit and build in our fitting for our local market here in the Durango area, we almost never, ever, ever build a driver for a man that is longer than 44", and there are a good percentage at 43 1/2". For women, never over 42 1/2". And we've never had anyone come back and want it longer.

Among the clubmakers with whom we correspond a lot to answer questions and offer fitting advice and get feedback, the vast majority of the clubmakers do the same thing as us. BUt they will get the occasional golfer who just doesn't want to hear about a shorter length and insists on 45" - so in such cases when the clubmaker states his points about shorter driver length yet the golfer refuses, then in that case you have to do what the customer wants. But we have heard several incidences when in such a case, the golfer comes back in a month or two to have it re-built to be shorter.

I just cannot express strongly enough how bad this has been for the industry to have gradually grown driver lengths from the 43" they ALL were for the first 80 yrs of the 20th century, to where they are today. There has never ever been one shred of evidence that going longer like this with std driver lengths was in anyway good for the vast majority of golfers out there, even for the low hdcps. Yes, as I said, you'll find a golfer here or there who can handle a longer length OK and that's why we teach a lot about what swing characteristics a golfer has to have to be OK with a longer length - so we can teach the clubmakers how to identify who could use one.

But I would bet all the tea in China that if the industry were to all of a sudden shift back to a std driver length of 44 for men and 43 for women, you'd see 80%+ of the golfers immediately gain consistency with the driver over what they experience now using one of these 45-46" drivers for men. And with women, I would go so far to say if the std driver length were reduced to 42 1/2 to 43, the percentage to see improvement would be over 90%.
[/quote]

During lunch one day last week I was in a big box and ask if I could hit a driver. I start hitting a driver at 45.75 and I notice the swing speed is all over the place ranging from 102-112. Then I grab a 3W at 43 and the swing speed is 106.8-106.9 on every swing. I normally don't pay attention to the simulators but just happened to notice the consistency in the shorter club.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='Marand' timestamp='1414886678' post='10384707']
[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1414886327' post='10384683']
At 43 inches, what's the advantage of a lightweight graphite shaft over traditional steel, other than shock absorption?
[/quote]

Speed?
[/quote]

Much?

[Marand]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1414909385' post='10385901']
[quote name='Marand' timestamp='1414886678' post='10384707']
[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1414886327' post='10384683']
At 43 inches, what's the advantage of a lightweight graphite shaft over traditional steel, other than shock absorption?
[/quote]

Speed?
[/quote]

Much?
[/quote]

Depends on the differential.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='erock9174' timestamp='1414884036' post='10384573']

Thanks for the informative answer. One follow up question.

So say for instance 43.75" is a good avg length based on your comments above. What would a typical build look like ? I know your driver heads accept heavier weights. Something like a 210-215g head with a 65g shaft etc ?
Or do you leave the head around 200g and use an 80-100g shaft ?

Just curious as I have dabbled with drivers clear down to 42.5" (I'm only 5'4"). In terms of FW hit (60%) I had my best results with a 12* driver with a 65g shaft and the head was approximately 213g at 44".

Right now playing a 10* at 45.25" and I choke down a little. (48% FW hit) but I gained about 20 yds on avg. Same amount of balls OB about one per rd with both.

Since I'm not a long hitter 230ish normally even when I miss a FW I'm still in play.
[/quote]

All of the fitting elements of length, loft, lie, face angle, shaft weight, shaft flex and swingweight are chosen for each golfer INDEPENDENTLY with each decision based on the fitting analysis of the swing characteristics which dictate what each element should be to best fit the golfer.

In other words for example, you never let the length dictate what shaft weight the golfer needs. Shaft weight is chosen on the basis of the golfer's transition force, downswing tempo, golfer strength and the golfer's preference for the overall weight feel from heavy to medium to light, if he does have such a weight preference. Once the shaft weight is chosen based on these swing characteristics, then the best length is determined based on the swing characteristics I have mentioned in previous posts about length fitting. Then each of the other key specs are also determined based on their own decision process from analyzing the swing factors which tell you that information.

Once all the individual specs are known from the analysis of the golfer, then you put it all together to build the club to have these specs. Again, you never let one fitting spec dictate what other fitting specs are to be in the club. You analyze the golfer and use your judgment from experience and knowledge in fitting to determine what each spec needs to be to best fit the golfer and then you build the club to have all those specs all at the same time.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='sniper' timestamp='1414898646' post='10385585']

During lunch one day last week I was in a big box and ask if I could hit a driver. I start hitting a driver at 45.75 and I notice the swing speed is all over the place ranging from 102-112. Then I grab a 3W at 43 and the swing speed is 106.8-106.9 on every swing. I normally don't pay attention to the simulators but just happened to notice the consistency in the shorter club.
[/quote]

This sounds very typical to the results we would see in our past fitting research work. The longer length with its higher MOI for the club causes more stress/load on the golfer which makes it more difficult for the golfer to maintain more consistent control on the club, which in one way can show up with a wider variation in the clubhead speed. But then when the shorter length does its job to better fit to the golfer's timing, the control of the club is better so the clubhead speed now becomes more consistent.

[jobuddha]

When you measure driver length, what are your measuring points? Are you measuring just the shaft length before installation, shaft and head after installation? Just seems to be different ways people measure driver length.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1414886327' post='10384683']
At 43 inches, what's the advantage of a lightweight graphite shaft over traditional steel, other than shock absorption?
[/quote]

Shock absorption has nothing to do with choice of the weight of the shaft. Shaft weight is the #1 determinant of the total weight of a golf club. So the weight of a shaft is chosen on the basis of what total weight a golfer needs to best match to his swing tempo, timing, rhythm and strength.

[boatrightgolf7]

I hate to disagree with Tom Wishon here cause I know he is the expert however it's possible to pick up as much as 25 mph or more in club head speed with a longer shaft if it were possible.. Let me explain I have a legit club head speed radar and when I swing my fishing pole it goes 174 mph,a wooden dowel at 45 inches about 125 mph and the same dowel at 45 inches with duct tape for weight on the end goes 118 mph I also have a wooden dowel at 47 inches that has no head weight ranging from 133 to 146. I have made a 47 inch driver being 5-9 ish and 170 pounds it's just to much for me to handle,however Brook Henderson of the LPGA manages a 48 incher somehow and she is 5 nothing.

 

 

The real problem is weight and flex and not so much center hits anymore. I would take a 124 mph 1/2 inch toe hit over a 104 mph dead center hit all day,but from by builds it's just to much product all that shaft seems to weigh a ton and I don't get the speed built into that 47 inch leverage. If you could build a club that has the same or less actual total weight than a 44 inch driver that flexes the same for a pure ball flight then I would go 47 inch all day because I would swing it 15 to 20 mph faster and that's 35+ yards. I play with 2 drivers anyhow so I also have a shorty for consistency and from my test I swing a 44 to 45 inch driver about 108 mph at 95%,but if I could make a club that I could swing 85% and get that same speed than I would use that club and If I had a wide open par 4 or 5 and I knew it were possible to get 127 mph if I tried really hard then I would also go with that option. I believe the weight is just to great the head weight 200 grams and a shaft at 46+ weight a lot as well making it a tough task for most amateurs.

[Stuart_G]

Sorry but data collected from swinging something w/o a club head and without actually trying to hit a ball is useless and doesn't tell us anything about what may or may not be possible when actually playing the game of golf with a real golf club.

 

Second Tom wasn't explaining what was or was not possible, only what is likely to happen.

[howellhandmade]

Also, fishing rod will produce FAR higher speed readings because of how much it bends and whips. Which is only made possible by the rod's tapering to an extremely thin tip which couldn't support a clubhead. If you look up the youtube video of the world's longest golf club you can see that there is a point of diminishing returns, and the person swinging the 10-foot or whatever it is driver has clearly gone past it because the ball hardly goes anywhere.

 

I'm not saying that a particular person can't play a longer club and do well, just that the point of diminishing returns tends to be established empirically. Brooke Henderson does use a very long driver, but look how far down the shaft she takes her grip. Sure, even a 45" effective length is long for someone her size, but she's a professional. And she's 20th on the lpga tour in driving distance and 75th in driving accuracy. Not at all bad, and I'm not going to argue with 6th on the money list, but she's her own golfer, not proof of concept for the rest of us.

[Ri_Redneck]

You will also notice that Brooke chokes down close to 2" on her 48" driver. I would bet money she has the shaft butt weighted to counter balance the head at that length. A counterbalance works really well if you keep it behind your hands when gripping the club.

 

BT

[lsuscott]

I have an old Titleist 913D2 driver that is 45 inches and I was just curious if I did cut it down to 44" what would I need to do to establish the same swingweight I had before when it was 45 inches long? Would I need to add lead tape to head and if so how much in order to get it back to same swingweight......if anyone knows this thanks for letting me know because I am going to keep my 45" 913D2 and buy another one and make it 44" and just try the two side by side but need to know about getting weight correct on shorter one.

[nsxguy]

I hate to disagree with Tom Wishon here cause I know he is the expert however it's possible to pick up as much as 25 mph or more in club head speed with a longer shaft if it were possible.. Let me explain I have a legit club head speed radar and when I swing my fishing pole it goes 174 mph,a wooden dowel at 45 inches about 125 mph and the same dowel at 45 inches with duct tape for weight on the end goes 118 mph I also have a wooden dowel at 47 inches that has no head weight ranging from 133 to 146. I have made a 47 inch driver being 5-9 ish and 170 pounds it's just to much for me to handle,however Brook Henderson of the LPGA manages a 48 incher somehow and she is 5 nothing.

 

 

The real problem is weight and flex and not so much center hits anymore. I would take a 124 mph 1/2 inch toe hit over a 104 mph dead center hit all day,but from by builds it's just to much product all that shaft seems to weigh a ton and I don't get the speed built into that 47 inch leverage. If you could build a club that has the same or less actual total weight than a 44 inch driver that flexes the same for a pure ball flight then I would go 47 inch all day because I would swing it 15 to 20 mph faster and that's 35+ yards. I play with 2 drivers anyhow so I also have a shorty for consistency and from my test I swing a 44 to 45 inch driver about 108 mph at 95%,but if I could make a club that I could swing 85% and get that same speed than I would use that club and If I had a wide open par 4 or 5 and I knew it were possible to get 127 mph if I tried really hard then I would also go with that option. I believe the weight is just to great the head weight 200 grams and a shaft at 46+ weight a lot as well making it a tough task for most amateurs.

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand the part I bolded. Are you saying it IS possible to pick up 25 mph ? If so, how ? Or did I miss it ? Surely the 48" driver won't pick up 25 mph over any other length, will it ?