Tour issue driver heads - face angle/loft question

[titleist26]

So if for example you have a driver head and the tour sticker states it has 10.8 degrees of loft and a 3 degree open face angle.

What is the actual loft of the head? is the 10.8 factoring in the open face or not? or would the loft be more like 9... assuming the face is squared at impact.

 

thanks

[Golfrnut]

Both...


The 10.8 and 3 open is a measurement taken while the club is deemed to be soled on the ground. If you were to sole it perfectly on the gound, you would have 10.8* of loft, pointed 3 degress to the right in relation to the shaft being absolutely perpendicular to your target that you are aiming at.

And you are correct, assuming the face angle is reduced to zero, it would decrease the face to a lower loft. This is how adjustable hosels work, they manipulate face angle so that the loft is increased or decreased when the face is pointed directly at the target.

[wilavic]

Taylormade does the loft when the face is squared.I have a supertri version 2 which is 9.0 actual loft and a face angle of 5 degrees open.If you measure the loft in the soled position with the face pointing 5 degrees to the right the loft is about 12.75 degrees.When you square the face you get 9.0.Would not make much sense to measure loft on any club if it is not set to square.G

[golfdad907]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1414852985' post='10382647']
Both...


The 10.8 and 3 open is a measurement taken while the club is deemed to be soled on the ground. If you were to sole it perfectly on the gound, you would have 10.8* of loft, pointed 3 degress to the right in relation to the shaft being absolutely perpendicular to your target that you are aiming at.

And you are correct, assuming the face angle is reduced to zero, it would decrease the face to a lower loft. This is how adjustable hosels work, they manipulate face angle so that the loft is increased or decreased when the face is pointed directly at the target.
[/quote]

I thought closing the face increased dynamic loft, and opening decreases...maybe I'm dyslexic

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='golfdad907' timestamp='1414863328' post='10383315']
[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1414852985' post='10382647']
Both...


The 10.8 and 3 open is a measurement taken while the club is deemed to be soled on the ground. If you were to sole it perfectly on the gound, you would have 10.8* of loft, pointed 3 degress to the right in relation to the shaft being absolutely perpendicular to your target that you are aiming at.

And you are correct, assuming the face angle is reduced to zero, it would decrease the face to a lower loft. This is how adjustable hosels work, they manipulate face angle so that the loft is increased or decreased when the face is pointed directly at the target.
[/quote]

I thought closing the face increased dynamic loft, and opening decreases...maybe I'm dyslexic
[/quote]


Closing the face angle through the hosel adjustment and then turning the face to square will increase loft.

Opening the face angle through hosel adjustment and then turning face to square will decrease loft.

[titleist26]

Ok great. Thanks for the replies

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='wilavic' timestamp='1414862876' post='10383281']
Taylormade does the loft when the face is squared.I have a supertri version 2 which is 9.0 actual loft and a face angle of 5 degrees open.If you measure the loft in the soled position with the face pointing 5 degrees to the right the loft is about 12.75 degrees.When you square the face you get 9.0.Would not make much sense to measure loft on any club if it is not set to square.G
[/quote]


It makes perfect sense if you are building a driver for someone who plays a draw and needs to start the ball to the right of target and allow the draw to bring it back on the target line.

Also, how are you taking measurements by pointing a driver head 5* to the right and measuring loft? What machine are you using to accomplish this?

[wilavic]

We wanted to check the specs compared to the spec sticker.Used a mitchell machine.With the shaft set to standard the club was indeed 5 degrees open when soled naturally in the machine.When he rotated the club square it measured 9 degrees loft.For curiosity sake I wanted to see what the loft was before being squared so we took a protractor and aligned it square to the face but pointing the 5 degrees right.That was were it was almost 13 degrees.Hope that clears up what ever concerns you had.The op asked if the head would be 10.8 when squared or when it's pointing to the right.It would 10.8 when you square it up I believe.

[Golfrnut]

Well, not to burst anyone's bubble, but a Mitchell machine is not capable of doing that correctly. And that comes from Tom himself, the creater/designer of the machine. We had an extensive discussion on this with him at the class I went to a couple of years back. The only thing a Mitchell will do is allow you do bend the face angle open/closed based on the loft you set the machine at. And that measurement is taken using the face angle relative to the shaft, and not the loft angle relative to the sole. You cannot sole a head the proper way that they are measured in those machines. If he was trying to sole the wood in the machine like that, he was using it improperly.

To corectly measure woods like that, that have a curved sole, with bulge and roll on the face, you have to have something like a green machine to do so.

Also of note, if TM measured everything to square, there would be no such thing as a face angle measurement on the labels, as it would always be zero. You cannot calculate those two measurements independently unless you are measuring angles using the correct machine. A Mitchell cannot due that.

This is the exact reason that TM used to only show face angle adjustments on the adapters when they first came out. Along the way, they decided to change that over to show loft instead. The R11 was the only one to deviate from that at it had a sole plate, which allowed you to change the loft after a face angle change by altering how the club was soled. That allowed for an independent sole/face angle adjustment, for example, you could see a head start at 5 open at 10.5 loft and change it to an 11.5 at 5 open when the club head was resoled and measured again. I had 2 R9 V2s, and can assure you that the heads are not measured off square.

[dave s 316]

Great post GOLFRNUT! Good info there. Thanks!!

[Ri_Redneck]

Goklfrnut is correct. Mr Mitchell did not believe the sole of the club should be used in the measurement of a wood head, His machine clamps the head with the face square for all measurements.

BT

[drbonesvt]

also talking about dynamic closure, its a factor of roughly .6*, not a 1-1 ratio, your 5* open will be roughly 3* reduction in dynamic loft when face is squared