Confessions of Ignorance: Share your Confusion as a Rookie WRX'er

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428256733' post='11288609']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428255242' post='11288493']
[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428252589' post='11288251']
In continuing my butt workout. Lots and lots of movies on till Women's BB at 6:30 and 8:30. Then couple more movies. Couple small laundry loads, and maybe some basic cleaning. Wild and crazy I is.

Where has Da Vaterman been hiding?
[/quote]

Ya, where is the vaterman?

And beware off too much butt working out. It could result in glutification.
[/quote]Hammies and Glutes for breakfast. Meaty breakfast of champs.
[/quote]

Rump roasts, hog butts.....used to eat at a restaurant in Naples, CA
called "The Hindquarter". Best steak and lobster I ever had. 16 oz
sirloin and two 8 oz tails. mmmmmmm....taste buds keep saying yes
while the belly says STOP!

[Michael C.]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428258373' post='11288703']
[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428256733' post='11288609']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428255242' post='11288493']
[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428252589' post='11288251']
In continuing my butt workout. Lots and lots of movies on till Women's BB at 6:30 and 8:30. Then couple more movies. Couple small laundry loads, and maybe some basic cleaning. Wild and crazy I is.

Where has Da Vaterman been hiding?
[/quote]

Ya, where is the vaterman?

And beware off too much butt working out. It could result in glutification.
[/quote]Hammies and Glutes for breakfast. Meaty breakfast of champs.
[/quote]

Rump roasts, hog butts.....used to eat at a restaurant in Naples, CA
called "The Hindquarter". Best steak and lobster I ever had. 16 oz
sirloin and two 8 oz tails. mmmmmmm....taste buds keep saying yes
while the belly says STOP!
[/quote]

Oh yeah.....a huge slab of meat and two tails.......wait a sec......wasn't
that a movie? C'mon Radster, you can't open a door that wide without
expecting me to walk in!

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428284929' post='11291495']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428258373' post='11288703']
[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428256733' post='11288609']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428255242' post='11288493']
[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428252589' post='11288251']
In continuing my butt workout. Lots and lots of movies on till Women's BB at 6:30 and 8:30. Then couple more movies. Couple small laundry loads, and maybe some basic cleaning. Wild and crazy I is.

Where has Da Vaterman been hiding?
[/quote]

Ya, where is the vaterman?

And beware off too much butt working out. It could result in glutification.
[/quote]Hammies and Glutes for breakfast. Meaty breakfast of champs.
[/quote]

Rump roasts, hog butts.....used to eat at a restaurant in Naples, CA
called "The Hindquarter". Best steak and lobster I ever had. 16 oz
sirloin and two 8 oz tails. mmmmmmm....taste buds keep saying yes
while the belly says STOP!
[/quote]

Oh yeah.....a huge slab of meat and two tails.......wait a sec......wasn't
that a movie? C'mon Radster, you can't open a door that wide without
expecting me to walk in!
[/quote]

So many have teed me up here so I need to return the favor once in
a while! LOL. The best ones are when people tee it up and don't realize
it.....then you hit.....and they go........&^%$*())(*&!!!

[Reasonability]

[color=#222222]Te[size=3]sting - testing.....Sound check....check....check.... Hello??? [/size][/color][size=3][color=#222222]Cricketology.[/color][/size]

[size=3][color=#222222]Here is my favorite golf tip....[/color][/size][size=3][color=#222222]In order to learn clubface squareness control, go to your nearby Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc.[/color][/size]

[size=3][color=#222222]Get yourself one of these:[/color][/size]

[size=3][color=#222222][url="http://www.lowes.com/pd_40898-388-90441_0__?productId=1085819"][color=#0000FF]http://www.lowes.com/pd_40898-388-90441_0__?productId=1085819[/color][/url] [/color][/size]

[size=3][color=#222222]Then form it into a little 6 or 8” circular belt; Being Velcro – this step is easy. Then grip slip it over the wrist of your lead hand like a loose bracelet with that arm in front of your and parallel to the ground. Grip the club with your lead hand. Then slip the fingers of your trail hand through the slack in the belt. The act of jimmying your trail hand further down will cause the belt to encircle your hands at the point where your trail hand is worked into position to take your grip. It will end up looking like this:[/color][/size]
[color=#222222][attachment=2697137:Velcro.png][/color]
[size=3][color=#222222]Yes I have cargo shorts on and no that’s not for any other reason than I happen to own them – LOL. [/color][/size]

[size=3][color=#222222]If you swing with this little gizmo for ten or twenty swings – you will find that your grip pressure remains perfectly consistent, your hand path remains very natural, the club stays in front of the chest much more back and through, your won’t “flip” at all through impact, your wrists will automatically hinge and unhinge without even trying, and your clubface WILL BE square at impact.[/color][/size]
[size=3][color=#222222]You MAY well deliver PUSH shots at first – BUT that’s because all hand flipping at the bottom of the swing has been reduced or eliminated. That a GOOD thing because it simply means that its now time to work on PATH. That post will be next! [/color][/size]

[Reasonability]

Ok... Within minutes (If you try what I'm suggesting).... You will have quiet hands - a great hand path back and through - your turn will drive your swing more than your hands - you will take longer shallower divots - your stance will seem ten times easier to take - and you will take longer/straighter/shallower divots.

BUT because of the fact your probably more used to at least a little hand-flip through impact, you likely will need to work on getting the trail elbow to lead the hands a little more into the strike (passing more in front of the trail hip and belly area AS YOU TURN).

About a half-dozen feels start to happen. Like feeling downforce pressure into the trail instep going back - a slower/smoother transition - letting the trail hip drift behind the trail heel going back - etc.

BUT all that leads to a stable swing built around a turn with quieter hands.

Try the Velcro-elastic strap idea. Keep the receipt at the store you got it from. If I'm lying - take it back and get your ten bucks back.

But if I'm even 50% right - you will see that controlling squareness of the clubface is a snap. The clubface is (by doing this) virtually ALWAYS square - its square to where it is at all times as it orbits around you and back.

Put what you know about ball flight laws with this. If it flies to the right and straight versus curving then you will know if you need to tweak your grip or path or both.

Remove the little gizmo and the feeling lasts for the rest of your practice session.... and if not - its easy to put it back on.

If you control squareness of the clubface FIRST - its easier to learn to control your path. Its tougher to learn them in reverse order or at the same time.

TRY IT!!!!

[Michael C.]

Does anyone ever watch golf on TV. I was watching this week's tournament in Houston and noticed that this one guy named Phil Mickelson has a really long swing. It used to be long years ago then it was getting shorter and shorter in small increments over the last few years. He started working with a guy named Butch something or another. Anyway, I noticed this weekend it was longer than ever. Or, is it just me? I keep reading about how you need a "short and connected" swing but when I watch golf on TV that's not always what I see.

Watson, Koepka, Holmes, Mcilroy - long swings, short swings, connected swings, hip stalls, trailing arms and the list goes on and on. None of these people hit every fairway. They have timing and balance and confidence. Lydia Ko - love her swing hip stall and disconnection and all.

I'm just on a rant. I usually delete these rants instead of posting them. This one I'm putting out there for my buds in the COI. (Because I know I'd get totally trashed in the I and A forum. Lol. I'll admit it - I'm a little scared!) I've got more but I can only expose my insanity in small doses or the meds get stronger.LMAO!

From here on out I'm going out and having fun. I might wrap the club around me twice and swing for the Effingham fence!!!!

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1428291105' post='11292189']
Te[size=3]sting - testing.....Sound check....check....check.... Hello??? [/size][size=3]Cricketology.[/size]

[size=3]Here is my favorite golf tip....[/size][size=3]In order to learn clubface squareness control, go to your nearby Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc.[/size]

[size=3]Get yourself one of these:[/size]

[size=3][url="http://www.lowes.com/pd_40898-388-90441_0__?productId=1085819"][color=#0000FF]http://www.lowes.com/pd_40898-388-90441_0__?productId=1085819[/color][/url] [/size]

[size=3]Then form it into a little 6 or 8” circular belt; Being Velcro – this step is easy. Then grip slip it over the wrist of your lead hand like a loose bracelet with that arm in front of your and parallel to the ground. Grip the club with your lead hand. Then slip the fingers of your trail hand through the slack in the belt. The act of jimmying your trail hand further down will cause the belt to encircle your hands at the point where your trail hand is worked into position to take your grip. It will end up looking like this:[/size]
[attachment=2697137:Velcro.png]
[size=3]Yes I have cargo shorts on and no that’s not for any other reason than I happen to own them – LOL. [/size]

[size=3]If you swing with this little gizmo for ten or twenty swings – you will find that your grip pressure remains perfectly consistent, your hand path remains very natural, the club stays in front of the chest much more back and through, your won’t “flip” at all through impact, your wrists will automatically hinge and unhinge without even trying, and your clubface WILL BE square at impact.[/size]
[size=3]You MAY well deliver PUSH shots at first – BUT that’s because all hand flipping at the bottom of the swing has been reduced or eliminated. That a GOOD thing because it simply means that its now time to work on PATH. That post will be next! [/size]
[/quote]

Looks familiar,

Where have I seen this before?

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428292348' post='11292293']
Does anyone ever watch golf on TV. I was watching this week's tournament in Houston and noticed that this one guy named Phil Mickelson has a really long swing. It used to be long years ago then it was getting shorter and shorter in small increments over the last few years. He started working with a guy named Butch something or another. Anyway, I noticed this weekend it was longer than ever. Or, is it just me? I keep reading about how you need a "short and connected" swing but when I watch golf on TV that's not always what I see.

Watson, Koepka, Holmes, Mcilroy - long swings, short swings, connected swings, hip stalls, trailing arms and the list goes on and on. None of these people hit every fairway. They have timing and balance and confidence. Lydia Ko - love her swing hip stall and disconnection and all.

I'm just on a rant. I usually delete these rants instead of posting them. This one I'm putting out there for my buds in the COI. (Because I know I'd get totally trashed in the I and A forum. Lol. I'll admit it - I'm a little scared!) I've got more but I can only expose my insanity in small doses or the meds get stronger.LMAO!

From here on out I'm going out and having fun. I might wrap the club around me twice and swing for the Effingham fence!!!!
[/quote]

I watched the PGA, J.B. Holmes won
I watched the LPGA, Stacy lost to her friend, in a play-off
I watched the kids at ANGC

When I see a 13 yr/old drive it to/past the 250 yrd marker, I'm reminded that I started playing, much too late, at 60 yrs/old.

[Michael C.]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1428291934' post='11292257']
Ok... Within minutes (If you try what I'm suggesting).... You will have quiet hands - a great hand path back and through - your turn will drive your swing more than your hands - you will take longer shallower divots - your stance will seem ten times easier to take - and you will take longer/straighter/shallower divots.

BUT because of the fact your probably more used to at least a little hand-flip through impact, you likely will need to work on getting the trail elbow to lead the hands a little more into the strike (passing more in front of the trail hip and belly area AS YOU TURN).

About a half-dozen feels start to happen. Like feeling downforce pressure into the trail instep going back - a slower/smoother transition - letting the trail hip drift behind the trail heel going back - etc.

BUT all that leads to a stable swing built around a turn with quieter hands.

Try the Velcro-elastic strap idea. Keep the receipt at the store you got it from. If I'm lying - take it back and get your ten bucks back.

But if I'm even 50% right - you will see that controlling squareness of the clubface is a snap. The clubface is (by doing this) virtually ALWAYS square - its square to where it is at all times as it orbits around you and back.

Put what you know about ball flight laws with this. If it flies to the right and straight versus curving then you will know if you need to tweak your grip or path or both.

Remove the little gizmo and the feeling lasts for the rest of your practice session.... and if not - its easy to put it back on.

If you control squareness of the clubface FIRST - its easier to learn to control your path. Its tougher to learn them in reverse order or at the same time.

TRY IT!!!!
[/quote]

I like the idea of that, Judge. And it figures I go on rant about how disconnected swings do work at the same time you show us how to keep our swings connected. Two whacks for MC!!

[Qqq123xx]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1428291934' post='11292257']
Ok... Within minutes (If you try what I'm suggesting).... You will have quiet hands - a great hand path back and through - your turn will drive your swing more than your hands - you will take longer shallower divots - your stance will seem ten times easier to take - and you will take longer/straighter/shallower divots.

BUT because of the fact your probably more used to at least a little hand-flip through impact, you likely will need to work on getting the trail elbow to lead the hands a little more into the strike (passing more in front of the trail hip and belly area AS YOU TURN).

About a half-dozen feels start to happen. Like feeling downforce pressure into the trail instep going back - a slower/smoother transition - letting the trail hip drift behind the trail heel going back - etc.

BUT all that leads to a stable swing built around a turn with quieter hands.

Try the Velcro-elastic strap idea. Keep the receipt at the store you got it from. If I'm lying - take it back and get your ten bucks back.

But if I'm even 50% right - you will see that controlling squareness of the clubface is a snap. The clubface is (by doing this) virtually ALWAYS square - its square to where it is at all times as it orbits around you and back.

Put what you know about ball flight laws with this. If it flies to the right and straight versus curving then you will know if you need to tweak your grip or path or both.

Remove the little gizmo and the feeling lasts for the rest of your practice session.... and if not - its easy to put it back on.

If you control squareness of the clubface FIRST - its easier to learn to control your path. Its tougher to learn them in reverse order or at the same time.

TRY IT!!!!
[/quote]I heard that your account is billed for the money back guarantee. Is that true??? Kidding. I used a variation of that, looked like a figure eight, used just above elbows for chicken wing elbows. Guilty as charged. Did help a lot and still use it once in a while.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428292348' post='11292293']
Does anyone ever watch golf on TV. I was watching this week's tournament in Houston and noticed that this one guy named Phil Mickelson has a really long swing. It used to be long years ago then it was getting shorter and shorter in small increments over the last few years. He started working with a guy named Butch something or another. Anyway, I noticed this weekend it was longer than ever. Or, is it just me? I keep reading about how you need a "short and connected" swing but when I watch golf on TV that's not always what I see.

Watson, Koepka, Holmes, Mcilroy - long swings, short swings, connected swings, hip stalls, trailing arms and the list goes on and on. None of these people hit every fairway. They have timing and balance and confidence. Lydia Ko - love her swing hip stall and disconnection and all.


From here on out I'm going out and having fun. I might wrap the club around me twice and swing for the Effingham fence!!!!
[/quote]
[quote name='mdgboxx' timestamp='1428292394' post='11292295']
[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1428291105' post='11292189']
[/quote]

Looks familiar,

Where have I seen this before?
[/quote]

Mdg - I'm a man on a mission with this gizmo. No one I've actually shown this to live and in-person didn't go on to keep the little contraption in their golf bag!

MC - There are no doubt a butt-zillion ways to swing that thing. But I have to add this into the convo...

Phil just isn't ordinary. The angle between the shaft and his lead (his right) arm is so sharp on the DS that the shaft looks face-on as though it almost touches his trail shoulder. How he shallows the clubhead out at the bottom of the arc is a mystery. So I almost have to count him as a freak of nature. If you relate to that swing and that's your model and imagery of how to get it done - MORE POWER TO YOU BRO!!!! For me personally its forces too much to happen in too little time and space (through impact). But he surely can do it.... although we've all seen Phil win tourneys and miss 3/4 of the fairways. I notice many of his iron swings and approach shots are not so "long".

The other log I need to through on this fire is the whole idea of what exactly does (and does NOT) constitute a 'long' swing.

Lets for grins consider just the hand path, the plane of the shoulder turn, AND the amount of hip turn. Those three together have an interesting effect on what "looks" like a long swing.

For example -- Going back - I can basically freeze up the trail hip's rotational movement, turn my shoulders fairly level with the horizon, and fly the hands up high above my head. All it takes is a little tweak to the grip and I can appear to have a very "long" swing. BUT its artificially long.

Reverse the three processes above.... what if I added the depth of hip rotation by keeping the trail knee just inside my trail foot instep - and suppose I kept the club and hands more in front of the chest deeper into the backswing.... then the club would have traveled just as far back but it would have traveled wider (farther from the target and my head) and a little flatter since I didn't lift the hands up so high. If I turn the shoulders basically perpendicular to the spine... the arms don't have to be lifted and lowered so much as they just move WITH the shoulder turn.

By this definition -- neither swing is "longer" since the hands and handle traveled the same distance. They simply did so on two different paths with two different forms of body rotation going on. The "wider" backswing was more in-posture and leaves more room in front of the belly for the trail elbow to pass in front of the belly and never get "stuck".

Which method is right and which is wrong? Phew - WHO KNOWS ?!?!?! I've played well on given days doing it my way and STILL had my arse handed to me by a golfer who goes about it just exactly the way I wouldn't! Guess that makes me wrong! LOL.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='Qqq123xx' timestamp='1428293892' post='11292419']
[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1428291934' post='11292257']
Ok... Within minutes (If you try what I'm suggesting).... You will have quiet hands - a great hand path back and through - your turn will drive your swing more than your hands - you will take longer shallower divots - your stance will seem ten times easier to take - and you will take longer/straighter/shallower divots.

BUT because of the fact your probably more used to at least a little hand-flip through impact, you likely will need to work on getting the trail elbow to lead the hands a little more into the strike (passing more in front of the trail hip and belly area AS YOU TURN).

About a half-dozen feels start to happen. Like feeling downforce pressure into the trail instep going back - a slower/smoother transition - letting the trail hip drift behind the trail heel going back - etc.

BUT all that leads to a stable swing built around a turn with quieter hands.

Try the Velcro-elastic strap idea. Keep the receipt at the store you got it from. If I'm lying - take it back and get your ten bucks back.

But if I'm even 50% right - you will see that controlling squareness of the clubface is a snap. The clubface is (by doing this) virtually ALWAYS square - its square to where it is at all times as it orbits around you and back.

Put what you know about ball flight laws with this. If it flies to the right and straight versus curving then you will know if you need to tweak your grip or path or both.

Remove the little gizmo and the feeling lasts for the rest of your practice session.... and if not - its easy to put it back on.

If you control squareness of the clubface FIRST - its easier to learn to control your path. Its tougher to learn them in reverse order or at the same time.

TRY IT!!!!
[/quote]I heard that your account is billed for the money back guarantee. Is that true??? Kidding. I used a variation of that, looked like a figure eight, used just above elbows for chicken wing elbows. Guilty as charged. Did help a lot and still use it once in a while.
[/quote]

I wish I could patent this craziness!!! LOL. Its so simple that it doesn't seem like it could work. If I could figure out the three-easy-payments of $35 bucks plan.... I could retire on this puppy!!!!

[Reasonability]

Yes - the I&A forum is NOT the place for sharing as much as its the home of comparing wee-wee sizes of guys who for whatever reason have "O'grady-itis" and no one else "gets it". Then we have to endure twenty-thousand posts from two years ago being dredged up so that more popcorn can once again fly. OR... we get the pleasure of having one of the instructors (and his minions) enter into battle with those who seem to get their jollies telling that one instructor how full of crap he is. So its the same old broken record played by the same ten guys every day. And while a month or two ago things VASTLY calmed down -- I notice the little time-outs are over for those who were asked to sit out for a while.... and so now things are trending right back where they were.

There is a SMALL group of instructors (maybe three or four) who truly do understand what I personally consider the right way to let an individual golfer's build, flexibility, body-type.... all blend into his individual and ideal swing depth, and width in three dimensions. THOSE FEW people (IMO) honestly do "get it" when it comes to extracting the best a golfer can be. They tap into what is realistic, and an efficient roadmap for that INDIVIDUAL.

Beyond those three or so instructors - I honestly don't know what good that forum is going to do anyone.

I was asked by a friend in a PM recently if I could say that forum has changed my game by one stroke for the better. The honest answer is - NO.

[Reasonability]

The good news -- all Judge rants have ended!

When you can't post much for two or three weeks you sort of make up for lost time! LOL.

[Michael C.]

I have a theory on the long swing. A true long swing - Daly, Mickelson, etc. The reason they don't fight injuries is because of their loose swings with gradual acceleration. Now, a more connected swing is more powerful BUT if it's short then the transition is more.......violent??.....and this harsh change of direction and rapid acceleration takes it's toll on the body.

Daly uses stiff instead xstiff shafts because of the way he loads. No back problems for JD's fat arse. Now, Couples has a long swing and smooth acceleration BUT he also borders on a reverse pivot. His head and shoulders moves toward the target a smidgen at the top of his BS and puts pressure on his back.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428296315' post='11292545']
I have a theory on the long swing. A true long swing - Daly, Mickelson, etc. The reason they don't fight injuries is because of their loose swings with gradual acceleration. Now, a more connected swing is more powerful BUT if it's short then the transition is more.......violent??.....and this harsh change of direction and rapid acceleration takes it's toll on the body.

Daly uses stiff instead xstiff shafts because of the way he loads. No back problems for JD's fat arse. Now, Couples has a long swing and smooth acceleration BUT he also borders on a reverse pivot. His head and shoulders moves toward the target a smidgen at the top of his BS and puts pressure on his back.
[/quote]

You may be dead-on with that. From personal experience - a "violent" transition can happen with the swing is high-handed and "long" or a little flatter and wider. The "worst" scenario (IMO) is when three things occur inside the same swing:

a) A bad case of EE
b) A really high-paced tempo/rhythm
c) Too much lateral hip sway back and through leading to getting "stuck" - especially if the setup is in "s-posture".

The golfer with all three is probably a "lock" to have at least lower back problems... and eventually rotator cuff issues for good measure since eventually something has to "give". In fact any two of those three operating together is hard on the human body.

[Palauan Hammer]

Reason I'm gonna have to try that contraption and carry that in my bag when practice resumes (whenever that is). Since I made the mistake (kinda) of filming my swing and attempting to make it better there where always two things I felt needed to change 1. Was my inside takeaway which I have addressed already. 2. Shortening my backswing

2. is proving to be more difficult than I ever imagined. Plus I'm not so sure I really need to shorten it anyway LOL. I don't have a coach, so I don't have the answer.

I don't think longer backswings are really all that bad unless they produce consistently bad results I guess.

As for that I&A forum, holy smokes I stay outta there LOL!! Too much information to process, next thing you know I've convinced myself I need to change something else haha. I'm kinda "old school" that way I guess, minor tweeks, nothing crazy like a total revamp, I'll get lost and be a scratch handicap, you know....always scratching my head after every shot LOL.

As Reason stated, and I agree, the best instructors work with your natural abilities. They don't take the cookie cutter approach and just implement their "ideal" swing on everyone. Thats what makes Butch Harmon so great I'm sure, though I've never worked with him haha.

As for watching golf on TV, I have a problem. I watch the Golf Channel 24/7, 365 NO JOKE. It's bad. And now I'm on this site with you guys furthering my addiction to this game LOL!

On a side note, lately I have been staying away from a lot of threads just solely because of the realist/pessimists that are so eager to type. Also there are quite a few of "pros" or mini tour players that feel the need to tell others how to play or what to play. Makes me laugh really, it's the internet and I feel absolutely no need to prove myself to anyone online haha! All the "how far do you hit this" theads are trolling nets waiting for unsuspecting victims LOL. Anyway, sorry for kinda ranting as well.

*I should be noted that I am a perpetual optimist, and a "yes" man! Gets me stepped on sometimes, but I'm open-minded and go with the flow I guess. Nothing wrong with opposing opinions, just makes me wonder how people can deliberately put someone down for not knowing, understanding, or being able to do. Ok for real end rant LOL!!!*

[Reasonability]

I'm probably SO WRONG about this but... (yes one final rant before signing off for the night).

Lets say you wanted to grab a short iron and put a half-swing on it. You literally "could" hit it very solidly by NEVER letting your hands enter into the shot... just by using the energy of turning the body back and through ONLY would send a little half swing nicely on-line and in a very controlled way.

But - somewhere between a 3/4 and full swing - the hands and arms are going to have to "run off" or leave there position in front of the sternum. Then in transition the same thing becomes true. You "could" rip the legs or hips into the shot and leave the upper half totally stuck. EDIT: The longer the club and the longer the swing - the more likely the motion of the hands and arms take over while the body gets quieter (which IMO is backwards if you want consistency).

So its been my personal MO for a long time now to just keep it simple. The less the arms rum away from being in front of me, the more I let the hips have a little depth of rotation going back, the less I "rip" or sway in transition - the simpler it is to start down easy.

Maybe the whole reason I think of the swing this way is because I HAVE to. I wrecked my lower spine so badly in the 1990 (from golf) that I narrowly escaped major surgery.

[Reasonability]

Ham - I relate.

The Golf Channel is addictive. For better or worse I too have been known to just leave that channel on all day and into the night. I find M Breed and Martin to be especially interesting. Now and then they have the human interest stories - where you learn a little bit about a golfer or a community and such.... so I'm right with you on that one. Just watching pros swing the club, getting in and out of various lies and such.... tough to admit it but I could watch it endlessly.. LOL

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428296315' post='11292545']
I have a theory on the long swing. A true long swing - Daly, Mickelson, etc. The reason they don't fight injuries is because of their loose swings with gradual acceleration. Now, a more connected swing is more powerful BUT if it's short then the transition is more.......violent??.....and this harsh change of direction and rapid acceleration takes it's toll on the body.

Daly uses stiff instead xstiff shafts because of the way he loads. No back problems for JD's fat arse. Now, Couples has a long swing and smooth acceleration BUT he also borders on a reverse pivot. His head and shoulders moves toward the target a smidgen at the top of his BS and puts pressure on his back.
[/quote]

Here's my 2 cents......I'm in the Judge's camp pretty much.

The determining factor of whether a swing is full or not is the shoulder
turn IMHO. If the shoulders have turned fully (about 90 degrees) that
is all you need. Some can turn more and if so the arms can keep moving
with the shoulders.

Notice where the shoulders are in various pros and don't pay attention
to the arms and hands. I think you will find them similar.

As far as the arms and hands remember the spinning ice skater.It isn't
how far the arms and hands travel that matters, it's the speed at which
they travel that matters.

Hogan figured this out and did away with his overswing. His shoulders
fully turned but his arms stopped at about 1030 on his backswing and
his shaft was about parallel with the ground.

You can swing any way and make it work. I'm basically talking about
efficiency. Some moves are more efficient purely from the standpoint
of economy of motion.....and more reliably easy to repeat because of
less motion.

Phil would probably be less wild if he tightened things up like Butch
has wanted him to do......but Phil is Phil.....he makes lots of birdies
and he makes double bogies too. We like to watch guys like that, lol,
cause you never know what they're gonna do.....or where the ball
might go.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1428299161' post='11292645']
Ham - I relate.

The Golf Channel is addictive. For better or worse I too have been known to just leave that channel on all day and into the night. I find M Breed and Martin to be especially interesting. Now and then they have the human interest stories - where you learn a little bit about a golfer or a community and such.... so I'm right with you on that one. Just watching pros swing the club, getting in and out of various lies and such.... tough to admit it but I could watch it endlessly.. LOL
[/quote]

I'm with you guys on the Golf Channel, lol. It's on all day until Cobi
walks in and says "Can we watch a movie or something?"

[Reasonability]

Well lads - that's it for me for now....

On my way off... here is one you won't see but for the 19th hole....

Having spent some time around the house this weekend tending to a few home maintenance issues - (you'll love this post) ---

I now give my endorsement to the Korky brand of toilet tank replacement fill valves!!!!

Those bad boys are so easy to install you think you must have missed a step! You know its just cruel for a man my age to try and sleep with the sound of running water in the background! LOL.

[Michael C.]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428299311' post='11292655']
[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428296315' post='11292545']
I have a theory on the long swing. A true long swing - Daly, Mickelson, etc. The reason they don't fight injuries is because of their loose swings with gradual acceleration. Now, a more connected swing is more powerful BUT if it's short then the transition is more.......violent??.....and this harsh change of direction and rapid acceleration takes it's toll on the body.

Daly uses stiff instead xstiff shafts because of the way he loads. No back problems for JD's fat arse. Now, Couples has a long swing and smooth acceleration BUT he also borders on a reverse pivot. His head and shoulders moves toward the target a smidgen at the top of his BS and puts pressure on his back.
[/quote]

Here's my 2 cents......I'm in the Judge's camp pretty much.

The determining factor of whether a swing is full or not is the shoulder
turn IMHO. If the shoulders have turned fully (about 90 degrees) that
is all you need. Some can turn more and if so the arms can keep moving
with the shoulders.

Notice where the shoulders are in various pros and don't pay attention
to the arms and hands. I think you will find them similar.

As far as the arms and hands remember the spinning ice skater.It isn't
how far the arms and hands travel that matters, it's the speed at which
they travel that matters.

Hogan figured this out and did away with his overswing. His shoulders
fully turned but his arms stopped at about 1030 on his backswing and
his shaft was about parallel with the ground.

You can swing any way and make it work. I'm basically talking about
efficiency. Some moves are more efficient purely from the standpoint
of economy of motion.....and more reliably easy to repeat because of
less motion.

Phil would probably be less wild if he tightened things up like Butch
has wanted him to do......but Phil is Phil.....he makes lots of birdies
and he makes double bogies too. We like to watch guys like that, lol,
cause you never know what they're gonna do.....or where the ball
might go.
[/quote]

Let me play devil's advocate. Shorter swing is more efficient. Agreed.
Now, clubhead speed at impact being equal, the arms and hands have
more time to reach that speed gradually with a longer swing. Yet, with
a longer swing you have more time and distance that the clubhead travels
to go awry.

Now, which is harder on the body. Quick acceleration or gradual acceleration?
A person that has a slow rhythm to their swing will lose distance because they
have less time to reach the same speed. They can't. And a person with quick
acceleration will likely throw away all the good angles before impact. So, it still boils
down to connection and sequencing and balance and TEMPO. Ithink a persons natural
rhythm comes into play MUCH more than is given credit. This is all theory. Im trying to
justify my long swing and healthy joints and back lol

Ice skater, huh? Would you say this so-called ice skater has faster rotational spin (rpm)
in the first 4 feet of their rotation or at the 8 foor mark of said rotation? Where's my long swing
buddy De Ninja?. I'm sure he could throw out some sciencey stuff to back up our long swings.
LMAO!!

[Reasonability]

MC I do hope also we hear from Ninja on this.

From my seat the ball only reacts to these things:

Path
Angle of attack
Effective loft
Clubface squareness
Center of face contact
Acceleration

The ball doesn't care how we take it back, transition, flip it, rip it, grip it or address it. That much is up to each of us individually. However we get those five things managed either is or isn't going to result in consistently playable shots. So we both could be absolutely RIGHT about length of swing. I only know that in my particular case, the orbit of the that club around me lacks consistency unless I address, grip, and swing back and through the way (for me) that allows the most consistency. You and I have exchanged back and forth enough for me to believe you hit it farther than I do typically. A longer drive for me exceeds 270. I'm more of a 260 hitter on average. I probably manage about 60% fairways. On a good day a little more and I can work the ball both ways and more or less place it. My GIRs are roughly the same percentages. So I clearly am not in any way perfect.... but I am (for me) consistent and my misses are usually playable.

What happens for me personally is if I narrow the WIDTH of my backswing I get more wrist set and the shaft goes past parallel. When I maintain the WIDTH of my backswing (and let both hips TURN versus sway).... then I get as much or more clubhead speed with that approach as I would get with the more narrow and steeper AoA swing. But that's me. You likely have better control than me over the FIVE VARIABLES above doing it your way. That would make me wrong in terms of how you execute. You can do what I can't do. I can likely manage a shape of swing and release that allows me to do what you can't do. So we BOTH are correct.

I can hit it a little farther with a longer swing - but not by much. My 275 to 290 yard swing gets narrower, steeper in AoA, has more hand-flip through impact, and introduces sway. When I do those things the window of time to square everything up has to be dead perfect in a tiny fraction of time or else the ball goes far in every direction but straight. So I just don't have the talent to pull it off. You evidently can. As does Bubba, and John D, and many others.

LOL - consider me a little more like Steve Stricker or Fred Funk.

[Qqq123xx]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428296315' post='11292545']
I have a theory on the long swing. A true long swing - Daly, Mickelson, etc. The reason they don't fight injuries is because of their loose swings with gradual acceleration. Now, a more connected swing is more powerful BUT if it's short then the transition is more.......violent??.....and this harsh change of direction and rapid acceleration takes it's toll on the body.

Daly uses stiff instead xstiff shafts because of the way he loads. No back problems for JD's fat arse. Now, Couples has a long swing and smooth acceleration BUT he also borders on a reverse pivot. His head and shoulders moves toward the target a smidgen at the top of his BS and puts pressure on his back.
[/quote]Couples also has an open stance, which puts even more pressure on the back.

[Palauan Hammer]

I might approach golf the same way I approach music. I can't read music, so I play by ear. If it sounds good to others than it's good for me LOL. My swing is shorter than it used to be actually. I would see my clubhead at the top of the backswing starting with the 7 iron -Driver. I had A LOT of arm overrun for sure. I still kinda do, but it's not as bad and I'll fix that as I go I guess.

So many ways to get the ball in the hole, I really do envy the nice compact golf swing because I can't do it for some reason LOL. Like the girl I'll never be able to date. I don't know if it's my slow tempo but it feels like my swing has to stop literally at my hip just to get to stop just short of parallel. I'll trust it more when I get to hit balls while doing this as tweeking my swing here at home with no feedback makes me a little nervous.

Some good news for once! I've been contacted by the National Team here and I'm welcome tojoin a few tournaments before I move, so Lord willing I'll be able to gear up and represent Guam one last time down in Thailand. That would be September so I have time to tighten things up. News like that gives me hope and keeps me positive.

Also it's Master's Week and I know there are threads on this already but I was wondering who you guys are picking this week?? There are so many it's hard to choose, in no particular order I have to go with Jordan Speith, Jason Day, and Louis Oosthuizen.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428308106' post='11292785']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428299311' post='11292655']
[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1428296315' post='11292545']
I have a theory on the long swing. A true long swing - Daly, Mickelson, etc. The reason they don't fight injuries is because of their loose swings with gradual acceleration. Now, a more connected swing is more powerful BUT if it's short then the transition is more.......violent??.....and this harsh change of direction and rapid acceleration takes it's toll on the body.

Daly uses stiff instead xstiff shafts because of the way he loads. No back problems for JD's fat arse. Now, Couples has a long swing and smooth acceleration BUT he also borders on a reverse pivot. His head and shoulders moves toward the target a smidgen at the top of his BS and puts pressure on his back.
[/quote]

Here's my 2 cents......I'm in the Judge's camp pretty much.

The determining factor of whether a swing is full or not is the shoulder
turn IMHO. If the shoulders have turned fully (about 90 degrees) that
is all you need. Some can turn more and if so the arms can keep moving
with the shoulders.

Notice where the shoulders are in various pros and don't pay attention
to the arms and hands. I think you will find them similar.

As far as the arms and hands remember the spinning ice skater.It isn't
how far the arms and hands travel that matters, it's the speed at which
they travel that matters.

Hogan figured this out and did away with his overswing. His shoulders
fully turned but his arms stopped at about 1030 on his backswing and
his shaft was about parallel with the ground.

You can swing any way and make it work. I'm basically talking about
efficiency. Some moves are more efficient purely from the standpoint
of economy of motion.....and more reliably easy to repeat because of
less motion.

Phil would probably be less wild if he tightened things up like Butch
has wanted him to do......but Phil is Phil.....he makes lots of birdies
and he makes double bogies too. We like to watch guys like that, lol,
cause you never know what they're gonna do.....or where the ball
might go.
[/quote]

Let me play devil's advocate. Shorter swing is more efficient. Agreed.
Now, clubhead speed at impact being equal, the arms and hands have
more time to reach that speed gradually with a longer swing. Yet, with
a longer swing you have more time and distance that the clubhead travels
to go awry.

Now, which is harder on the body. Quick acceleration or gradual acceleration?
A person that has a slow rhythm to their swing will lose distance because they
have less time to reach the same speed. They can't. And a person with quick
acceleration will likely throw away all the good angles before impact. So, it still boils
down to connection and sequencing and balance and TEMPO. Ithink a persons natural
rhythm comes into play MUCH more than is given credit. This is all theory. Im trying to
justify my long swing and healthy joints and back lol

Ice skater, huh? Would you say this so-called ice skater has faster rotational spin (rpm)
in the first 4 feet of their rotation or at the 8 foor mark of said rotation? Where's my long swing
buddy De Ninja?. I'm sure he could throw out some sciencey stuff to back up our long swings.
LMAO!!
[/quote]

I didn't notice any overswing in your videos MC. Sometimes momentum
will carry the shaft a little past parallel but you didn't look like you were
over swinging and getting disconnected.

Overswinging to me means disconnecting the arms from their power
source at the top. If you did that you would know because you would
feel yourself in a momentary weak position until you reconnected on
the way back down.

I think the clubhead dropping and pointing down at the top like in JD's
swing is about the wrists and not the arms. You can't physically take
your arms back and have them parallel to the ground behind you!

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Palauan Hammer' timestamp='1428354940' post='11297131']
I might approach golf the same way I approach music. I can't read music, so I play by ear. If it sounds good to others than it's good for me LOL. My swing is shorter than it used to be actually. I would see my clubhead at the top of the backswing starting with the 7 iron -Driver. I had A LOT of arm overrun for sure. I still kinda do, but it's not as bad and I'll fix that as I go I guess.

So many ways to get the ball in the hole, I really do envy the nice compact golf swing because I can't do it for some reason LOL. Like the girl I'll never be able to date. I don't know if it's my slow tempo but it feels like my swing has to stop literally at my hip just to get to stop just short of parallel. I'll trust it more when I get to hit balls while doing this as tweeking my swing here at home with no feedback makes me a little nervous.

Some good news for once! I've been contacted by the National Team here and I'm welcome tojoin a few tournaments before I move, so Lord willing I'll be able to gear up and represent Guam one last time down in Thailand. That would be September so I have time to tighten things up. News like that gives me hope and keeps me positive.

Also it's Master's Week and I know there are threads on this already but I was wondering who you guys are picking this week?? There are so many it's hard to choose, in no particular order I have to go with Jordan Speith, Jason Day, and Louis Oosthuizen.
[/quote]

That's great news Ham! You know we'll be rooting for you and you'll
have to give us updates. You gonna be OK having your own little WRX
cheering section?

Those 3 are solid picks. All 3 have been in the hunt on Master's Sunday
before. I hope Louis is healthy. I still remember him killing the field at the
Old Course. Paul Casey didn't know what to do, lol, as Louis keep hitting
them deep down the middle of the fairway. Casey got off his game trying
to play Louis' game. Louis is a stud when his back is not acting up.

I thought Louis was gonna win in 2012. He had that albatross and I hoped
it was an omen.....but Bubba hit THAT shot in the playoff and that was that.
I like to root for the Ping Staffers but really I would like to see Jordan or
Rickie win so I'm gonna be pulling for those 2. It would put either one a new
level.

It's gonna be a great Masters! Probably 20-30 guys with the game to
win it.

[Palauan Hammer]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428356229' post='11297303']
[quote name='Palauan Hammer' timestamp='1428354940' post='11297131']
I might approach golf the same way I approach music. I can't read music, so I play by ear. If it sounds good to others than it's good for me LOL. My swing is shorter than it used to be actually. I would see my clubhead at the top of the backswing starting with the 7 iron -Driver. I had A LOT of arm overrun for sure. I still kinda do, but it's not as bad and I'll fix that as I go I guess.

So many ways to get the ball in the hole, I really do envy the nice compact golf swing because I can't do it for some reason LOL. Like the girl I'll never be able to date. I don't know if it's my slow tempo but it feels like my swing has to stop literally at my hip just to get to stop just short of parallel. I'll trust it more when I get to hit balls while doing this as tweeking my swing here at home with no feedback makes me a little nervous.

Some good news for once! I've been contacted by the National Team here and I'm welcome tojoin a few tournaments before I move, so Lord willing I'll be able to gear up and represent Guam one last time down in Thailand. That would be September so I have time to tighten things up. News like that gives me hope and keeps me positive.

Also it's Master's Week and I know there are threads on this already but I was wondering who you guys are picking this week?? There are so many it's hard to choose, in no particular order I have to go with Jordan Speith, Jason Day, and Louis Oosthuizen.
[/quote]

That's great news Ham! You know we'll be rooting for you and you'll
have to give us updates. You gonna be OK having your own little WRX
cheering section?

Those 3 are solid picks. All 3 have been in the hunt on Master's Sunday
before. I hope Louis is healthy. I still remember him killing the field at the
Old Course. Paul Casey didn't know what to do, lol, as Louis keep hitting
them deep down the middle of the fairway. Casey got off his game trying
to play Louis' game. Louis is a stud when his back is not acting up.

I thought Louis was gonna win in 2012. He had that albatross and I hoped
it was an omen.....but Bubba hit THAT shot in the playoff and that was that.
I like to root for the Ping Staffers but really I would like to see Jordan or
Rickie win so I'm gonna be pulling for those 2. It would put either one a new
level.

It's gonna be a great Masters! Probably 20-30 guys with the game to
win it.
[/quote]

Thanks Rad, and yes I'll be sure to give updates! As for a cheering section, thats awesome as well LOL I just enjoy being able to log and chat with you guys. I learn a lot here from you guys and weather you guys know or not your HELPING me get through my situation here, so a sincere thank you!!!

Louis has an am-a-zing golf swing! So far this year his back seems to be in good shape so I'm hopeful he'll have a good Masters. The shot that Bubba hit in the playoff was ridiculous! I almost broke my jaw it hit the floor so hard, but if anyone could've pulled that shot off it's Bubba! I too would like to see Jordan or Rickie win, and your correct there are like at least 30 guys that could win this thing easily! Also I'm interested to see how Tiger does, I realize he's a polarizing figure but I grew up watching him and I am still a supporter. I think he'll do well.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Palauan Hammer' timestamp='1428357958' post='11297531']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1428356229' post='11297303']
[quote name='Palauan Hammer' timestamp='1428354940' post='11297131']
I might approach golf the same way I approach music. I can't read music, so I play by ear. If it sounds good to others than it's good for me LOL. My swing is shorter than it used to be actually. I would see my clubhead at the top of the backswing starting with the 7 iron -Driver. I had A LOT of arm overrun for sure. I still kinda do, but it's not as bad and I'll fix that as I go I guess.

So many ways to get the ball in the hole, I really do envy the nice compact golf swing because I can't do it for some reason LOL. Like the girl I'll never be able to date. I don't know if it's my slow tempo but it feels like my swing has to stop literally at my hip just to get to stop just short of parallel. I'll trust it more when I get to hit balls while doing this as tweeking my swing here at home with no feedback makes me a little nervous.

Some good news for once! I've been contacted by the National Team here and I'm welcome tojoin a few tournaments before I move, so Lord willing I'll be able to gear up and represent Guam one last time down in Thailand. That would be September so I have time to tighten things up. News like that gives me hope and keeps me positive.

Also it's Master's Week and I know there are threads on this already but I was wondering who you guys are picking this week?? There are so many it's hard to choose, in no particular order I have to go with Jordan Speith, Jason Day, and Louis Oosthuizen.
[/quote]

That's great news Ham! You know we'll be rooting for you and you'll
have to give us updates. You gonna be OK having your own little WRX
cheering section?

Those 3 are solid picks. All 3 have been in the hunt on Master's Sunday
before. I hope Louis is healthy. I still remember him killing the field at the
Old Course. Paul Casey didn't know what to do, lol, as Louis keep hitting
them deep down the middle of the fairway. Casey got off his game trying
to play Louis' game. Louis is a stud when his back is not acting up.

I thought Louis was gonna win in 2012. He had that albatross and I hoped
it was an omen.....but Bubba hit THAT shot in the playoff and that was that.
I like to root for the Ping Staffers but really I would like to see Jordan or
Rickie win so I'm gonna be pulling for those 2. It would put either one a new
level.

It's gonna be a great Masters! Probably 20-30 guys with the game to
win it.
[/quote]

Thanks Rad, and yes I'll be sure to give updates! As for a cheering section, thats awesome as well LOL I just enjoy being able to log and chat with you guys. I learn a lot here from you guys and weather you guys know or not your HELPING me get through my situation here, so a sincere thank you!!!

Louis has an am-a-zing golf swing! So far this year his back seems to be in good shape so I'm hopeful he'll have a good Masters. The shot that Bubba hit in the playoff was ridiculous! I almost broke my jaw it hit the floor so hard, but if anyone could've pulled that shot off it's Bubba! I too would like to see Jordan or Rickie win, and your correct there are like at least 30 guys that could win this thing easily! Also I'm interested to see how Tiger does, I realize he's a polarizing figure but I grew up watching him and I am still a supporter. I think he'll do well.
[/quote]

I still root for Tiger, too. Oops, I said it! LOL

I kinda get Tiger. I'm from SoCal where he grew up and he really
sounds like a California kid to me so I can identify. Same with Phil.

I can hear it in the way they talk, etc. It's there. Hard to describe it
to everyone else, haha, they think Californians are fruitcakes
anyway and we pretty much are.

For Tiger's sake I just hope he shows some form, makes the cut and
at least has a top 25. Anything better would be a bonus.....but I don't
have high expectations for this tournament. Golf needs Tiger and needs
him to play well in the next 10 years. I'm sure the injuries have really
frustrated him.

So, ya, I will joke around but truthfully I think he's the best golfer in
history and root for him to do more great things. He won 7 of 11 majors
during one stretch of his career.

I remember Peter Kessler saying back in 2007 that the only thing that
could derail Tiger's run in his opinion was a personal calamity like a
divorce or something. Boy, did he have that right. We all thought Tiger
would have 25 majors by now and 100 wins overall, easily. I think he
can still get there. He only showed flashes of his previous form in '12
and '13 and racked up 8 wins and got back to #1. I think he can still
dominate if he can get back into form.