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[Golfbeat]

Could it be this simple?

 

[MadGolfer76]

No.

[bph7]

This is troll, right? If so, nice troll, I think some will fall for it.

If not, then the answer to your inquiry is NO times like a thousand.

[Golfbeat]

Well, I think that the concept is that simple. The lack of talent or athleticism will however be the real issue for the vast majority of us (including myself).

[bph7]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1420166831' post='10672545']
Well, I think that the concept is that simple. The lack of talent or athleticism will however be the real issue for the vast majority of us (including myself).
[/quote]

Why'd you ask the question then, you seem to already know the answer. If you think that's simple, I've got an even simpler plan: mimic the exact swing and impact dynamics of tiger woods from 2000. You do that, you'll play pretty well. You are welcome for that tip.

[MonteScheinblum]

-7 bad
+11 bad


Just like everything else in the golf swng, the opposite of bad is not good, they are just two bad extremes.

That +11 swing is terrible unless you are 130-150 mph with a 2-4* loft driver in a long drive contest.

[larrybud]

I mean, the math is simple (to me anyway), but getting there is another issue. You can't just change AoA without changing path and face if you want to hit it realtively straight. Note how his club path is always very close to his attack angle.

BTW, you'll notice his clubhead speed went from 96 to about 116 between the start and end of the video... so it's not *just* his attack angle which is producing the longer distances. In addition, he's not changing drivers between shots to match his AoA and clubhead speed for a given shot. While -7 is bad, he probably would get more distance if he happened to be htiting a driver which was optimized for his launch conditions in the -7 aoa shot.

BTW, how long of a tee would you need to be +11? I think you'd be in huge danger of drop kicking the ball a foot behind it!

[billh17]

NO

[Michael C.]

Okay-got it- this is bad. I wonder though how many people will rewatch this video to see what they can try to achieve more distance.

[russc1597187869]

My impression of this video is a but different than most.
Sure +11,-7 are silly#'s.Few LDA competitors go over +7. PGA pros are only -5 with their pitching wedge.So the first thing to do is take these #'s with a grain of salt
But this video can be helpful in 2 ways
[size=4]Virtually all players would benefit from a session with a well respected fitter.The probability that an off the rack driver is maximized for your specific needs is very small[/size]
Most players would be better off trying to imitate a LPGA pro more than a PGA pro.The AoA of the average LPGA pro is +3 with 94 mph clubhead speed.,while the average PGA pro averages -1.3 with clubhead speed of 113.
There are various ways to achieve a slightly positive AoA ,but one of them is to set up with sufficient spine tilt .Admittedly learning this and other movements is not easy to accomplish on your own ,but that is why you need to see a good pro in person.

[wmblake2000]

I thought this was going to be a TaylorMade ad.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Video is a farse. Like Larrybud said, changing your set up positions doesn't magically increase clubhead speed by 20. It's almost as if the video was connecting 'speed' with 'attack angle'. Clearly the -7 slow swing was completely contrived to try to prove a point.

FWIW, I just finished up a round at Torrey South today and was focusing on driver swings and attack. I got the ball up higher, but made zero difference to my typical distances. If anything carry was low as it was in the 50s. Point is, hitting up doesn't guarantee big gains, nor does it make you swing faster. Hitting down will decrease carry but can increase roll out. Super 'negative' indicates a swing issue as it shouldn't be very hard to sweep ie come in relatively level with a ball teed up. A few degrees either way is insignificant.

[chrisgilly09]

Actually aren't most people slightly faster with a slight down AOA?

[oikos1]

Top Ten best thread title nominee. I peeked...

[Golfbeat]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420167499' post='10672611']
-7 bad
+11 bad


Just like everything else in the golf swng, the opposite of bad is not good, they are just two bad extremes.

That +11 swing is terrible unless you are 130-150 mph with a 2-4* loft driver in a long drive contest.
[/quote]

I agree about the extremes but should the concept of keeping the head more back and the hips more forward to create a more upward motion not be desirable?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1420289082' post='10678495']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420167499' post='10672611']
-7 bad
+11 bad


Just like everything else in the golf swng, the opposite of bad is not good, they are just two bad extremes.

That +11 swing is terrible unless you are 130-150 mph with a 2-4* loft driver in a long drive contest.
[/quote]

I agree about the extremes but should the concept of keeping the head more back and the hips more forward to create a more upward motion not be desirable?
[/quote]

That's nothing new or innovative. It's what good teachers teach.

[ALIF]

The other thing too is that trying to get a real positive AoA with your driver can be dangerous. I tried this and started spraying my driver all over the course. I need accuracy. I'm not a long hitter but can keep up with the average tour distance on a tee shot. It's just too difficult for me to use two different swings while playing. So while great in theory, most people will have a difficult time swinging with a negative AoA on irons, hybrids, and FW woods and significantly positive with a driver. I know the LPGA gals do it but +3 is a big difference than +7 on AoA. Monte or Putter, please chime in some more b/c you're the experts on this.

[Jacob Mac]

All I need to do is increase my swing speed to 116 mph. Back to the lab.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1420299016' post='10678957']
The other thing too is that trying to get a real positive AoA with your driver can be dangerous. I tried this and started spraying my driver all over the course. I need accuracy. I'm not a long hitter but can keep up with the average tour distance on a tee shot. It's just too difficult for me to use two different swings while playing. So while great in theory, most people will have a difficult time swinging with a negative AoA on irons, hybrids, and FW woods and significantly positive with a driver. I know the LPGA gals do it but +3 is a big difference than +7 on AoA. Monte or Putter, please chime in some more b/c you're the experts on this.
[/quote]

Biggest misconception is that all you have to do is move the ball forward and add tilt at address to 'hit up'. There is this general assumption that the 'low point' of the swing is generally going to be 'fixed' at around the left armpit, and these set up adjustments will automatically create an upward strike. Just not true and here's why: most ams have some degree of lateral motion in the swing. That effectively moves the low point. Even with massive tilt and head behind the ball, if the upper body moves laterally even a few inches in transition the low point will shift forward as well and can have a decending attack angle even with tons of tilt.

The reason chasing attack angle is so dangerous is because of how most go about doing it. What you typically see is an almost reverse pivot move where a player will really increase lateral side bend and chuck the angles. The right shoulder drops and often stalls. From there you can see EE or any number of disastrous snap hooks or big blocks. For those who play the ball outside the front foot you sometimes see big pull hooks as better players naturally want to left the head release with the path. It's been described to me by several players that an extreme forward ball position requires more of a chickenwing release pattern to not miss left.

[ALIF]

Awesome post Putter. I gues there's a reason why the avg AoA on tour is -1.3
Guess those guys know something!

[pinhigh27]

good luck transferring +11 AoA to a PW

[mdgboxx]

The only hope to hit a 300 yd drive, would be if I was teeing from atop a ½ mile, 20° down slope with the wind from the back.

[ALIF]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1420313704' post='10680083']
good luck transferring +11 AoA to a PW
[/quote]

But then I can hit the golfwrx 180 yard PW by blading it 5 ft off the ground.

[nitram]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1420314388' post='10680127']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1420313704' post='10680083']
good luck transferring +11 AoA to a PW
[/quote]

But then I can hit the golfwrx 180 yard PW by blading it 5 ft off the ground.
[/quote]

....in a parking lot!

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1420258300' post='10677715']
Actually aren't most people slightly faster with a slight down AOA?
[/quote]
I found more down and left produced the most speed.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1420320219' post='10680571']
[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1420258300' post='10677715']
Actually aren't most people slightly faster with a slight down AOA?
[/quote]
I found more down and left produced the most speed.
[/quote]

makes sense to me.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

A good friend and client's swing is what basically swayed my view on the whole AoA thing relevant to high level play. Guy has a home made swing that you wouldn't brag to mom about, but he get's it done. Was a very good jr. level player and maintains a low single level handicap in his 40's. He plays low cuts with the driver and they repeat. His #s are like -4/-5 aoa, -5 path, 52 degree swing plane/VSP ( not shaft plane at impact), 110 mph swing. In the right conditions can still carry the ball 260 plus with another 25 plus of roll out. Ive seen him hit PLENTY of 300 yard drives with non-optimal numbers. It's hilarious watching him try to 'hit up'....looks like a 20 when he does it.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1420321721' post='10680707']
A good friend and client's swing is what basically swayed my view on the whole AoA thing relevant to high level play. Guy has a home made swing that you wouldn't brag to mom about, but he get's it done. Was a very good jr. level player and maintains a low single level handicap in his 40's. He plays low cuts with the driver and they repeat. His #s are like -4/-5 aoa, -5 path, 52 degree swing plane/VSP ( not shaft plane at impact), 110 mph swing. In the right conditions can still carry the ball 260 plus with another 25 plus of roll out. Ive seen him hit PLENTY of 300 yard drives with non-optimal numbers. It's hilarious watching him try to 'hit up'....looks like a 20 when he does it.
[/quote]

Exactly. Number chasers are not good instructors.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1420305725' post='10679421']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1420299016' post='10678957']
The other thing too is that trying to get a real positive AoA with your driver can be dangerous. I tried this and started spraying my driver all over the course. I need accuracy. I'm not a long hitter but can keep up with the average tour distance on a tee shot. It's just too difficult for me to use two different swings while playing. So while great in theory, most people will have a difficult time swinging with a negative AoA on irons, hybrids, and FW woods and significantly positive with a driver. I know the LPGA gals do it but +3 is a big difference than +7 on AoA. Monte or Putter, please chime in some more b/c you're the experts on this.
[/quote]

Biggest misconception is that all you have to do is move the ball forward and add tilt at address to 'hit up'. There is this general assumption that the 'low point' of the swing is generally going to be 'fixed' at around the left armpit, and these set up adjustments will automatically create an upward strike. Just not true and here's why: most ams have some degree of lateral motion in the swing. That effectively moves the low point. Even with massive tilt and head behind the ball, if the upper body moves laterally even a few inches in transition the low point will shift forward as well and can have a decending attack angle even with tons of tilt.

The reason chasing attack angle is so dangerous is because of how most go about doing it. What you typically see is an almost reverse pivot move where a player will really increase lateral side bend and chuck the angles. The right shoulder drops and often stalls. From there you can see EE or any number of disastrous snap hooks or big blocks. For those who play the ball outside the front foot you sometimes see big pull hooks as better players naturally want to left the head release with the path. It's been described to me by several players that an extreme forward ball position requires more of a chickenwing release pattern to not miss left.
[/quote]
I disagree with your characterization of my suggestion as massive tilt .Monte probably advocates more tilt than I do.
Lateral movement beyond that which is necessary will certainly make a positive angle of attack more difficult to achieve.But this is a separate swing error which needs to be addressed on its own
Trying to swing with the ball outside the left foot has the potential to create nothing but problems .Somewhat forward yes ,but not nearly as far forward as outside the front foot
Both of these issues and others reinforce the need to learn from a pro who understands the issues involved

When choosing whether to have a positive AoA ,there is a tradeoff between increased distance and more control.
I mentioned the LPGA for the simple reason is that the average golfer's clubhead speed is closer to that of LPGA pros than that of PGA pros.And the vast majority of LPGA pros have positive angles of attack;they have decided that increased distance is worth it ,even if it means slightly less control

As I stated previously each golfer will benefit from a fitting given by a well established fitter.The goal is to maximize TOTAL distance not just carry .

[ALIF]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1420333813' post='10681611']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1420305725' post='10679421']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1420299016' post='10678957']
The other thing too is that trying to get a real positive AoA with your driver can be dangerous. I tried this and started spraying my driver all over the course. I need accuracy. I'm not a long hitter but can keep up with the average tour distance on a tee shot. It's just too difficult for me to use two different swings while playing. So while great in theory, most people will have a difficult time swinging with a negative AoA on irons, hybrids, and FW woods and significantly positive with a driver. I know the LPGA gals do it but +3 is a big difference than +7 on AoA. Monte or Putter, please chime in some more b/c you're the experts on this.
[/quote]

Biggest misconception is that all you have to do is move the ball forward and add tilt at address to 'hit up'. There is this general assumption that the 'low point' of the swing is generally going to be 'fixed' at around the left armpit, and these set up adjustments will automatically create an upward strike. Just not true and here's why: most ams have some degree of lateral motion in the swing. That effectively moves the low point. Even with massive tilt and head behind the ball, if the upper body moves laterally even a few inches in transition the low point will shift forward as well and can have a decending attack angle even with tons of tilt.

The reason chasing attack angle is so dangerous is because of how most go about doing it. What you typically see is an almost reverse pivot move where a player will really increase lateral side bend and chuck the angles. The right shoulder drops and often stalls. From there you can see EE or any number of disastrous snap hooks or big blocks. For those who play the ball outside the front foot you sometimes see big pull hooks as better players naturally want to left the head release with the path. It's been described to me by several players that an extreme forward ball position requires more of a chickenwing release pattern to not miss left.
[/quote]
I disagree with your characterization of my suggestion as massive tilt .Monte probably advocates more tilt than I do.
Lateral movement beyond that which is necessary will certainly make a positive angle of attack more difficult to achieve.But this is a separate swing error which needs to be addressed on its own
Trying to swing with the ball outside the left foot has the potential to create nothing but problems .Somewhat forward yes ,but not nearly as far forward as outside the front foot
Both of these issues and others reinforce the need to learn from a pro who understands the issues involved

When choosing whether to have a positive AoA ,there is a tradeoff between increased distance and more control.
I mentioned the LPGA for the simple reason is that the average golfer's clubhead speed is closer to that of LPGA pros than that of PGA pros.And the vast majority of LPGA pros have positive angles of attack;they have decided that increased distance is worth it ,even if it means slightly less control

As I stated previously each golfer will benefit from a fitting given by a well established fitter.The goal is to maximize TOTAL distance not just carry .
[/quote]

The reason the LPGA gals can get away with this is b/c on avg they are swing the clubhead 20 MPH less than the guys. It's a lot harder to hit a ball off line at 95MPH than it is at 115MPH. So they can give up a little control b/c they don't send the ball as far off line as the guys do.