I no longer dig this swing...(I think)

[MadGolfer76]

I can't do it but, yes...no? I like how she gets out of the way and lets the arms through. Seems like she is more "around" whereas with Elkington (in other vids in this series), it is more of a higher/vertical hip bump. I am certainly no expert, though, so pardon if I am not explaining that the right way. Looks a little flippy at impact?

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[MadGolfer76]

Another...maybe better example of what I was talking about.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eMR45LlvAY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eMR45LlvAY[/url]

[MonteScheinblum]

Her lower body is leading too much and he is telling her to do it more?

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420838198' post='10717649']
Her lower body is leading too much and he is telling her to do it more?
[/quote]

I don't pay attention to Elk. It just looks to me like she was really getting through the ball.

[MadGolfer76]

So is this just really a bit of a spin-out? Starting to doubt my first impression.

[MonteScheinblum]

SE had more lateral hip movement than most, but he did a great job of making sure his arms got forward enough too. Probably not conscious, just the way he got it done.

He is trying to teach her his feels and she is in danger of her arms trailing too much and getting trapped.

SE was/is a great player, but his ideas on the swing give me the willies.

15* of hip turn?????

[Michael C.]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1420837571' post='10717589']
I can't do it but, yes...no? I like how she gets out of the way and lets the arms through. Seems like she is more "around" whereas with Elkington (in other vids in this series), it is more of a higher/vertical hip bump. I am certainly no expert, though, so pardon if I am not explaining that the right way. Looks a little flippy at impact?

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmWW_I3I0Y"]https://www.youtube....h?v=ifmWW_I3I0Y[/url]


Thoughts?
[/quote]

I really like it too, Mad. Most instructors will probably comment about her arms being too far behind her pivot. I believe Ernie does the same thing. So do I. Of course I'm not a tour player or instructor. Aesthetically, it looks nice though. Oh, to be young.

[Michael C.]

Lol....An actual instructor beat me to it........Kudos Monte....btw....this is what I was asking about in my swing yesterday when I posted in your blog.

[northgolf]

I'm with Monte - her hips are already so far ahead of her arms that she is flipping coming into the ball. If her hips get any more ahead, she'll either be stuck and flip like crazy or have to switch to punch elbow and hit from behind.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1420839427' post='10717791']
I'm with Monte - her hips are already so far ahead of her arms that she is flipping coming into the ball. If her hips get any more ahead, she'll either be stuck and flip like crazy or have to switch to punch elbow and hit from behind.
[/quote]

...and 15* of hip turn. Hasn't he heard, forcing X-factor by limiting hip turn has been debunked by its creator?

What he was showing was a flat hip turn that over rotates. That's what you fix.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1420839325' post='10717771']
Lol....An actual instructor beat me to it........Kudos Monte....btw....this is what I was asking about in my swing yesterday when I posted in your blog.
[/quote]

People get confused that good rhyhm equates to a good golf swing. There are obviously good players that have trailing arms, but it is not something g the vast majority of golfers can accommodate.

[northgolf]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420839654' post='10717817']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1420839427' post='10717791']
I'm with Monte - her hips are already so far ahead of her arms that she is flipping coming into the ball. If her hips get any more ahead, she'll either be stuck and flip like crazy or have to switch to punch elbow and hit from behind.
[/quote]

...and 15* of hip turn. Hasn't he heard, forcing X-factor by limiting hip turn has been debunked by its creator?

What he was showing was a flat hip turn that over rotates. That's what you fix.
[/quote]

Maybe he can turn her into a ballerina. - misinterpreted your post, over rotating flat can be balletic. Restricted hip turn is not the answer.

I'd like to see her right knee not start internally rotating until her arms (right elbow) are a bit further ahead of the right hip in the downswing. She looks a lot like your student from just before xmas.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1420839843' post='10717837']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420839654' post='10717817']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1420839427' post='10717791']
I'm with Monte - her hips are already so far ahead of her arms that she is flipping coming into the ball. If her hips get any more ahead, she'll either be stuck and flip like crazy or have to switch to punch elbow and hit from behind.
[/quote]

...and 15* of hip turn. Hasn't he heard, forcing X-factor by limiting hip turn has been debunked by its creator?

What he was showing was a flat hip turn that over rotates. That's what you fix.
[/quote]

Maybe he can turn her into a ballerina.
[/quote]

She's on her way.

[Krt22]

Its like furyk without the loop at the top..impressive to come into impact with your right elbow on almost in your back pocket

[goobers80]

[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.

[Ajlepisto]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

I showed a coworker some of your stuff regarding the turn and flatter shoulders in the downswing, etc and he recovered distance he lost trying to fire his hips hard.

He says the same thing I do..."It doesn't feel hard" when you do it the right way. It feels more powerful with the hips firing like crazy.

He literally went, over the span of a few days, from 270 carry to almost 290 carry, and the ball doesn't start 10 degrees right anymore.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1420859288' post='10719635']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

I showed a coworker some of your stuff regarding the turn and flatter shoulders in the downswing, etc and he recovered distance he lost trying to fire his hips hard.

He says the same thing I do..."It doesn't feel hard" when you do it the right way. It feels more powerful with the hips firing like crazy.

He literally went, over the span of a few days, from 270 carry to almost 290 carry, and the ball doesn't start 10 degrees right anymore.
[/quote]

Most golfers perceive wasted effort for more speed and power. More efficient swings feel slower and weaker. The same reason shorter backswings feel powerless.

[JDUB81]

Monte-I'm curious, specifically what do you not like about Elkington's instruction in this case (the 2nd video posted). He is telling her to restrict her hip turn because she does have too much hip turn in the back swing. Even when she trys to limit hip turn to 15 degrees, she probably still gets over 45. Elks advice in this case seems to be sensible. As for X factor, that was a marketing tool to sell books.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='JDUB81' timestamp='1420860376' post='10719753']
Monte-I'm curious, specifically what do you not like about Elkington's instruction in this case (the 2nd video posted). He is telling her to restrict her hip turn because she does have too much hip turn in the back swing. Even when she trys to limit hip turn to 15 degrees, she probably still gets over 45. Elks advice in this case seems to be sensible. As for X factor, that was a marketing tool to sell books.
[/quote]

You don't limit excess hip turn by restricting it. You rotate properly at the proper angle. It's the difference between limiting it at the beginning of the backswing versus the end. That is an EXTREMLY important distinction. He then is showing her getting the hips out and separating from the arms and keeps using rubber band and spring. He also puts her in a very steep shafted position.

He is trying to teach her his hip action.

[JDUB81]

What is the proper rotation and proper angle? How do you differentiate between limiting hip turn at the beginning of the back swing vs the end [of the backswing]?

[goobers80]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]If timed right , woulds the arms ands hands moving to catch up cause a slight increase in club head speeds ? There has to be a reason I see this with Asian female golfers ands some American in the higher levels more often. Or is it just a product of restricting hip turn across the board ? It aways looked wrong to me , but again i see it often.[/color]

[northgolf]

[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420862717' post='10719929']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]If timed right , woulds the arms ands hands moving to catch up cause a slight increase in club head speeds ? There has to be a reason I see this with Asian female golfers ands some American in the higher levels more often. Or is it just a product of restricting hip turn across the board ? It aways looked wrong to me , but again i see it often.[/color]
[/quote]

No, you are in a stronger and faster position with the arms in front of the hip so the trail leg and hip can propel them forward, when the arms get behind the hips you have to go punch elbow and rely on your lats to pull the club through. I don't know about you, but my legs are way stronger and faster than my lats (I was a 110 high hurdler in HS & college). If you don't go punch elbow then you flip and then you lose shaft lean which means higher dynamic loft which effectively turns your 5 iron into a 7 iron. It is a no win proposition as far as distance is concerned.

I can play from trailing punch way fairly well, but I give up way to much distance.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420862717' post='10719929']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]If timed right , woulds the arms ands hands moving to catch up cause a slight increase in club head speeds ? There has to be a reason I see this with Asian female golfers ands some American in the higher levels more often. Or is it just a product of restricting hip turn across the board ? It aways looked wrong to me , but again i see it often.[/color]
[/quote]

Notice how all golfers who have this look, stall their hips so the arms can catch up. "Lead with the lower body" has been around forever. An entire generation of golfers grew up with restrict hip turn, then add lead with lower body and have passive hands and arms. Many good golfers like this girl and McCilroy have made it work, but I agree with you, it' doesn't look right.

The picture below is of my student. Now obviously the left is an iron and right is with driver, but the swing change was the same. The difference in club head speed with driver was 2-4 mph faster and more center faced contact with swing on right.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1420838269' post='10717663']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420838198' post='10717649']
Her lower body is leading too much and he is telling her to do it more?
[/quote]

I don't pay attention to Elk. It just looks to me like she was really getting through the ball.
[/quote]

Maybe I just need an interpreter to explain things to me in Polish.

[goobers80]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420866284' post='10720169']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420862717' post='10719929']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]If timed right , woulds the arms ands hands moving to catch up cause a slight increase in club head speeds ? There has to be a reason I see this with Asian female golfers ands some American in the higher levels more often. Or is it just a product of restricting hip turn across the board ? It aways looked wrong to me , but again i see it often.[/color]
[/quote]

Notice how all golfers who have this look, stall their hips so the arms can catch up. "Lead with the lower body" has been around forever. An entire generation of golfers grew up with restrict hip turn, then add lead with lower body and have passive hands and arms. Many good golfers like this girl and McCilroy have made it work, but I agree with you, it' doesn't look right.

The picture below is of my student. Now obviously the left is an iron and right is with driver, but the swing change was the same. The difference in club head speed with driver was 2-4 mph faster and more center faced contact with swing on right.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]I haves seen a complete stop in real times.The disconnect of arms ands hips always looked bad to me. I swear i thinks i saw it down the whole range at the US Women's Open ands US Amateur qualifiers last year.[/color]

[color=#800080]I argued with my swing coach this year because i was trending flat ands he wanted me to hinge it earlier but keep it lower. So , i was flat but now stuck. Before i was a little flat but in fronts of me. It was my fault for thinking he coulds help me get better.[/color]

[ace036]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420866284' post='10720169']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420862717' post='10719929']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]If timed right , woulds the arms ands hands moving to catch up cause a slight increase in club head speeds ? There has to be a reason I see this with Asian female golfers ands some American in the higher levels more often. Or is it just a product of restricting hip turn across the board ? It aways looked wrong to me , but again i see it often.[/color]
[/quote]

Notice how all golfers who have this look, stall their hips so the arms can catch up. "Lead with the lower body" has been around forever. An entire generation of golfers grew up with restrict hip turn, then add lead with lower body and have passive hands and arms. Many good golfers like this girl and McCilroy have made it work, but I agree with you, it' doesn't look right.

The picture below is of my student. Now obviously the left is an iron and right is with driver, but the swing change was the same. The difference in club head speed with driver was 2-4 mph faster and more center faced contact with swing on right.
[/quote]

Monte,

What type of drill or "feeling" did you suggest to him to fix this issue? I tend to fire my hips a little too quick and get "squatty" like the image on the left... Would you call this EE or a version of EE?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='ace036' timestamp='1420867868' post='10720257']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420866284' post='10720169']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420862717' post='10719929']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1420858536' post='10719549']
[quote name='goobers80' timestamp='1420858215' post='10719519']
[color=#800080]I see this move a lot seeing as i golf arounds females in competition. Sometimes you see it so badly that you can see their lower body stop so their arms ands hands race ands flip through. They just look so stuck up until that point. Some instructor tolds me it helps with a small amount of club head speed increase , which is why it is seen a lot with the female golfers.[/color]
[/quote]

It doesn't help distance and men do it too.
[/quote]

[color=#800080]If timed right , woulds the arms ands hands moving to catch up cause a slight increase in club head speeds ? There has to be a reason I see this with Asian female golfers ands some American in the higher levels more often. Or is it just a product of restricting hip turn across the board ? It aways looked wrong to me , but again i see it often.[/color]
[/quote]

Notice how all golfers who have this look, stall their hips so the arms can catch up. "Lead with the lower body" has been around forever. An entire generation of golfers grew up with restrict hip turn, then add lead with lower body and have passive hands and arms. Many good golfers like this girl and McCilroy have made it work, but I agree with you, it' doesn't look right.

The picture below is of my student. Now obviously the left is an iron and right is with driver, but the swing change was the same. The difference in club head speed with driver was 2-4 mph faster and more center faced contact with swing on right.
[/quote]

Monte,

What type of drill or "feeling" did you suggest to him to fix this issue? I tend to fire my hips a little too quick and get "squatty" like the image on the left... Would you call this EE or a version of EE?
[/quote]

I told him to dump his right wrist angle from the top as fast as he could. That speeds up the right arm, the pivot speeds up in reaction and viola, shaft lean and retained right wrist angle at imapct.

There are preferences and there is wrong. What Elk is teaching that girl is wrong. It's what he thinks he does.

[Millbrook]

Would anyone care to comment on the girls hand action as she starts the downswing. Is she turning a cupped left wrist flat and establishing a hinged right wrist.
If I'm seeing this as just described does this flatten the club and help get it on plane.


I ask because I chanced upon this at the range this week when I was trying to 'dump the right wrist angle' as monte describes above. It felt as though I was shallowing the club 'manually' with hands rather than with the bump.

I got a better strike and more distance. Got some straight pulls and low woods as well. Felt as though when I over did it the face was closing too much,

Coincidence I saw it in this swing but wondered if I'm seeing what I want to see but if I'm seeing it correctly any comments on doing this as a deliberate move.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='JDUB81' timestamp='1420861997' post='10719875']
What is the proper rotation and proper angle? How do you differentiate between limiting hip turn at the beginning of the back swing vs the end [of the backswing]?
[/quote]

Level/90* to the spone instead of flat.

The hips make a full turn, get to end of range of motion and stop, versus not turning at the beginning of the backswing.