Quintero & WeKoPa

[FourUnder]

I had the chance to play both courses at WeKoPa (Cholla is the original by Scott Miller and Saguaro is the Coore/Crenshaw) and then play Quintero as well. I was very excited to play all three for the first time, especially the Saguaro as so many people raved about it on this forum. I love Bandon Trails and Kapalua Plantation (2 other C&C designs) and I think I would like Dormie in NC (another C&C) a lot better if I played it again when it hadn't just been punched, sanded, and literally covered in chicken crap fertilizer.

 

After playing these three highly ranked Arizona courses, I would rank them:

 

1. Quintero $66

2. WeKoPa Cholla $91

3. WeKoPa Saguaro $91

 

I realize this is probably an uncommon opinion.

 

Saguaro was a bit of a let down to me. It has nothing to do with my score as it was the best score I had out of the 3 rounds. I thought the par 3s were very uneventful except for #15 which was fun, but it's 233 from the Purple tees (1 in from the tips) which is a real stretch for a par 3. The bunkers I was in during the round were in lousy shape with almost no sand in the bottom. Maybe the rest of the bunkers were nice and I happened to go into the few bad ones but two times I had high lips in front of me in a green side bunker and my ball is sitting on a hard surface at the bottom of the bunker. Not sure how I'm suppose to make that work and for $91/round, bunkers should have sand. I think the biggest problem is I played the course a few days ago and I really struggle to remember the holes. There wasn't much to me that was memorable about the course. This does not mean I don't think it's a good course, it is, but I guess all the hype led me to hope for more. One more thing worth noting that my group had a good laugh about is that the 18th hole is the biggest middle finger I've ever seen a course designer give to the golfers. I'm playing the Purple tees at 6,600 and a course rating of 70.2. On the back side I've already played a 461 yard par 4, a 457 yard par 4, a 194 par 3, and a 233 yard par 3. I get to the 18th tee and it's a 490 yard par 4 with lots of bunkers and a bit of a dogleg. If I had a personal best round going and had to finish with that, I'd be pissed. Plus it was playing into a 2-3 club wind and I was told by the guys I was paired with this wasn't abnormal. Driver, 4 iron, 8 iron to get to the green. A 490 yard par 4 with lots of trouble to get into? It's just my opinion, but that's a lousy way to end a round.

 

Positives about Saguaro. The tees and fairways were in great shape. The greens were phenomenal. The service was friendly and I absolutely love that after the round, the guys at the bag drop have complimentary signature hole posters for both courses in hard tubes for safe transport back home. This is a really nice touch and it would be awesome if more clubs did this. Many don't even have posters for sale which I've never understood.

 

Going into the rounds I expected less from the Cholla course but it ended up surprising me. It was also in great shape like the Saguaro and I found the course to be more fun. It has a different feel to it than the Saguaro and if I had a chance to only play one, I would pick the Cholla. The two par 3s on the front side were great and I thought the par 5 8th hole was a very unique design. The 18th hole is exactly what a good finishing hole should be, not easy but memorable and with a good tee shot, you can score well. You can lay back to the right side and have 150-170 into the green over a pond or you can take aim off the tee at the left fairway and have a short shot with less water in the way.

 

Quintero. Where do I start. This course had basically everything I look for in a golf course. Memorable par 3s. Phenomenal course conditions. Par 5s with scoring opportunities and a couple of holes with really unique design elements.

 

I love playing new golf courses. It's one of the most appealing things about golf compared to most other sports. The venue changes everything. I've played a lot of dog tracks over the years and I've played a lot of Top 100 courses. I can have a great time at both. However, I especially love playing highly ranked courses I've never played before. Quintero isn't on my first tier of rankings with Pacific Dunes, Pebble Beach, and Bandon Dunes, but the more I've been thinking about my round at Quintero last week, the more I think it might be at or near the top of my second tier. I would need to play it again to really confirm this thought, but I think I would rather play there again than Kapalua, Chambers Bay, Dormie, Bay Hill, Torrey Pines, Crosswater, Spanish Bay, Turtle Bay, Mauna Kea, Reflection Bay, ect. It was that good. And if you factor in the cost, it's definitely the cheapest of any of the courses I just listed. I paid $66 with a cart. Ridiculous value. The tees, fairways, and rough might have been in the best condition I've ever seen anywhere, almost to the point where you felt bad taking a divot. The 3rd hole is a phenomenal par 4 with a lake to the left and a ravine cutting through the fairway. The 6th is a steep down hill par 3 with amazing views. The 8th is a very unique par 5 that either requires a layup off the tee short of a hazard or you can take drive over the corner before climbing the hill to the green. 9 is a beautiful par 3 with water in front (picture below). The backside isn't quite as amazing but still very good. 13 is a great par 3 with water left. 14 is a strong par 5 (picture below) and 15 is a great short par 4. I shot my worst round of the week here and still loved it. You will likely lose some balls off the tee here if you aren't accurate off the tee which I was not.

 

The ultimate test of a new golf course to me is on my next trip back to the area, would I come play it again instead of trying out a new course (especially since there are so many good ones in the area). Yes. Definitely yes. Make the drive to Quintero.

[funbobby]

I don't leave a lot of comments here but I thought you're review deserved at least one response. As far as these three courses go, I feel like you totally nailed it. Quintero is easily one of my favourite courses, not just in Arizona but anywhere. Cholla is fantastic. And Saguaro just leaves you wondering what just happened, especially if you played Cholla first. The par 3 9th feels like the designer built 17 holes and forgot one so they stuffed in a useless 125 yard par 3 that feels like you're playing in the parking lot. As far as 18 goes, I totally agree. If I remember correctly the course is a par 71, so they could easily have bumped the tees back as far as they wanted and closed with a great par 5 instead of crushing every score card with a brutal par four.
Thanks for your comments.
Fun Bobby

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Different strokes for different folks I guess, Quintero barely cracks my top 10 for valley courses. Cholla while a solid course still a few notches below Saguaro in my book #8 on Cholla is one of the dumbest golf holes around

[wcb231]

I just don't get how you can say Saguaro's par 3's were meh and gush over Quintero's par 3's, which are four of the same thing. And par 5's with scoring opportunities? Did you skip the one that makes you lay up way short off the tee and then have to hit 3 wood just to have a prayer on the second shot?

I've played Kapalua and would rather play that course in a hurricane than play Quintero on a perfect day. Different strokes for different folks indeed.

[DrSchteeve]

i have never understood the rationale for calling the 18th at Saguaro a par 4. Yes, it's easy to rationalize with the par 71, but on a resort course, why not just call it a short 5 - they would only have to add one tee box for the tips? And I agree #9 seems a bit contrived. I have found Saguaro to be a course that has grown on me with play, but I can't imagine picking Cholla over Saguaro even out of the box. Cholla #8 is silly, and #2 just not a good hole, #10 pedestrian, which leaves you with one decent par 5. But it is still a good, if not great, course overall.

Quintero is polarizing, but the detractors may just have to shake their heads and admit not getting it, because it gets a huge amount of love from visitors (and plenty from locals as well). Conditions there are almost always near perfect, and the greens can play among the fastest in the valley. 3 downhill par 3's from the same yardage is a bit much, but only the last one is not really a good hole. #9, with the water front and right and the bail out up the hill above the green is a very good hole in addition to being quite scenic. Only #8 - the par 5 that requires a lay up with a middle iron off the tee - is a really poor hole, so it's actually one up on Cholla in that respect.

[az2au]

Just played Cholla yesterday and it left me wondering why I ever liked t at all. In contrast I love Saguaro. FWIW I play both of the from the tips and have no issue with 18 being a par 4 at 509. If you can fly it to the top of the hill it doesn't play long. The last time I played it the wind was strong enough that I couldn't quite get over the hump but still put a 3 wood on the front right corner. Yes, it took two great shots but, so what, it is a tough par 4. On Cholla I think 2 and 8 are horrible and then a bunch of good holes with 17 and 18 being the only holes I just really love.

Quintero is one I will never understand the love for but I do totally appreciate the beauty out there. The holes the OP loved are the ones that I dislike which just says that it is polarizing as DrS says.

Nothing wrong with this at all. Glad not everyone likes the same things.

[FourUnder]

I agree with the comment about 6, 9, and 16 being similar par 3s at Quintero. I think I used 7 iron, 8 iron, 6 iron but I'm not positive. That might get old if you played them all the time, but 6 and 9 are so beautiful that I don't think I would care. 16 is the one they could have changed up.

I think my taste in courses is also different because besides a few local courses, I almost never play a course more than once. When I travel, I almost always opt to play a new course so I like gimmicky or abnormal holes more than the average golfer who may play the course frequently (#8 at Quintero and #8 at Cholla for example).

Take my review with a large grain of salt though because I loved Mike Strantz's Tot Hill Farm and Tobacco Road and those are two of the most polarizing courses I've ever seen.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='FourUnder' timestamp='1432624255' post='11627030']

I think my taste in courses is also different because besides a few local courses, I almost never play a course more than once.

[/quote]

This is always a topic for a good debate. How many times must a course be played before an accurate rating can be achieved?

In my experience, some courses get better the more times you play them. Other courses, just the opposite.

I do think it is true that a lot of modern courses have been designed for the tourist, one-and-done golfer. In some cases unfortunately, the focus on the visual aesthetic tends to distract from the underlying quality of golf. Should the single-visit golfer care? Maybe not. But like the restaurant with the spectacular oceanfront setting and charming decor, the food still has to be good.

Not to diminish anyone's experience. People have differing tastes and expectations. If your golf objectives were achieved, then you had a good golf holiday. Who can argue with great weather and conditions for a golf trip. Please come again.

[mikedejong]

I know locals really like Saguaro. Personally, I enjoy Quintero and Cholla much better as well. Again, its probably due to the views and the spectacular shots you get, which may get old after a few rounds, I don't know. One thing I will say is that Saguaro is definitely set up better if you enjoy walking the course. The others not so much. When I come down, its typically pretty hot and we don't walk anyway so that doesn't matter much to me. But if I lived there I would prefer to walk more often, and then perhaps I would appreciate Saguaro more. I was just there a month ago and I already cant wait to get back.

[DrSchteeve]

Not sure I get the views comments about Cholla vs Saguaro. I can't imagine anyone thinking the views are better on Cholla.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='DrSchteeve' timestamp='1432749158' post='11636730']
Not sure I get the views comments about Cholla vs Saguaro. I can't imagine anyone thinking the views are better on Cholla.
[/quote]

What I've noticed is cholla is a bit closer up in terms of views. Red mountain is closer to you and desert feels closer in to the player if that makes sense. On the other hand saguaro offers up a bigger picture with the views being in the backdrop and red mountain (on 5,6,7,8) and four peaks on most other holes. imo standing on the greens on 3 12 14 16 and looking back towards the tee plus 17 tee are some of the best views in town. Sure you're looking at mountains in the distance but man is it worth it

[drake47]

I really like Saguaro and think it is the best of the three, but what happened with #9? It seems like the designers made a mistake, then realized they only had 17 holes and the just had to throw a hole in wherever they could. That hole makes no sense and really stands out in a negative way.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

My opinion on 9 has drastically changed over the years. Go play 9 when the prevailing winds are blowing 20 mph from left to right. good hole the only thing I think people judge it by to make it awkward is it's the 9th had that been say the 4th like out at Tegavah I don't think it would be an issue at all. Nothing wrong with a solid short par 3. I love the fact there are 4 distinctly different par 3's on Saguaro.

[FyteOn]

I've had a players card at Wekopa for years. One of my best friends was a pro there before becoming Head Pro at Southern Dunes. I've played those two courses more than I've played any other course in my life. I love those courses and I'm going to miss them now that I've joined a club. My thoughts:

Saguaro is better than Cholla but I think Saguaro #9 is a terrible hole and I'm not very fond of #10. I agree, it's like they ran out of room. Any par 3 can be tough if the winds are blowing. Even if it played 155 it would be better. I know the card says it's 137 - I don't think I've ever seen it play 137. I think #2 is a GREAT hole. That's a tough green. #14 is great and for some reason I like #13 even though it's a little bland. #18 from the tips is a monster, especially if you push it right which is where the tees point you. I don't disagree that they should make it a short par 5 but they'd have to protect the green better. The views are great and the course is wider than Cholla

The views are actually quite different and I think One Putt hit it on the head. I love the views of Red Mountain from Cholla but the vistas of Four Peaks on Saguaro can't be beat. It's hard to beat #8 and #14 tee boxes on Cholla.

Cholla, there are some amazing holes and some flat-out stupid holes. #2 pisses me off when my drives goes through the fairway into the waste area even if you hit perfectly. #5 owns me. I think #6, from the tips, is the best hole on the course either side. #8 is the worst hole on the course, either side. The view on #14 is spectacular, #15 is fun...and I think #17 is prettiest hole on the course, either side.

I think I said this in the other Quintero thread, but it's probably a better tourist course than a local course. If the views are new to you then it's spectacular. If you're a local, the golf isn't nearly as good, in my opinion. Plus it's a LONG freaking drive out there!

[DrSchteeve]

In fairness, hole to hole, Quintero #9 beats Saguaro #9 hands down. Now the rest of the course, different matter.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='DrSchteeve' timestamp='1435024396' post='11815322']
In fairness, hole to hole, Quintero #9 beats Saguaro #9 hands down. Now the rest of the course, different matter.
[/quote]

Not a chance Schteeve. You're fired.

[DrSchteeve]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1435106344' post='11822462']
[quote name='DrSchteeve' timestamp='1435024396' post='11815322']
In fairness, hole to hole, Quintero #9 beats Saguaro #9 hands down. Now the rest of the course, different matter.
[/quote]

Not a chance Schteeve. You're fired.



OK, believe it or not, but I will take a 10 day suspension from the Southwest board. See you after the 4th.
[/quote]

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='DrSchteeve' timestamp='1435268058' post='11835192']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1435106344' post='11822462']
[quote name='DrSchteeve' timestamp='1435024396' post='11815322']
In fairness, hole to hole, Quintero #9 beats Saguaro #9 hands down. Now the rest of the course, different matter.
[/quote]

Not a chance Schteeve. You're fired.


[/quote]
OK, believe it or not, but I will take a 10 day suspension from the Southwest board. See you after the 4th.

[/quote]

OK, just don't tell anyone about all the old clubs with stock shafts in my bag or I will get another suspension from GolfWRX!

[sabram]

I think part of the divergence of opinion results in part from posters using different criteria. Part of the OP's review appears to be based on price ($66 vs $91), conditions (no sand in bunkers) and scenery. Nothing wrong with that. However, price and conditions are often changing, so taking those into account, a rating/review/ranking is temporal. Reviewing primarily on the design (e.g. routing, design, strategy, variety of holes etc) is more long term (subject to renovations and re-designs that are much less frequent than changing conditions). Those whose opinions are based primarily on the design/layout/architecture almost universally prefer Saguaro. The design/playability discussion regarding Saguaro #9 is interesting. The same analysis applies to Caledonia #9 (in Myrtle Beach) which is an even shorter par 3 that feels "squeezed in."

[FourUnder]

You could switch the prices and I'd feel the same way. Yes conditions do change, but the lack of sand (at least the few bunkers I was in) was ridiculous and drastically affected everyone's round in my group. I believe we had 6 or 7 nasty skulled bunker shots with almost every one resulting in a double bogey. Really surprising for supposedly a very nice course.

Quintero's condition was so pristine and others I've talked to say it's almost always like that. To each their own, but if you gave me 5 rounds, I'd play Quintero 3 times and the others once.

[fore_life]

I've never played Quintero, mostly because it's a day trip pretty much and I trust my buddies reviews, but I will add that I've never been overly impressed with wekopas conditions

[AzSuperHack76]

Huge Quintero fan here as well, one of my favorite courses, if you have issues with WeKoPa's bunkers what about Quinteros? Until they get the bunkers squared away I can't put it in a "pristine" category. It honestly seems they get worse each and every time I get out there. Only 20 minutes from my house so I get out 2-3 times a month. They have redone a few green side bunkers and those are really nice, but the rest are in very poor condition. Nothing but rocks, hard packed dirt/sand with the fabric that was laid down prior to the sand going in coming out in a lot of the bunkers.

Now if you want "pristine" conditions, hit up Wickenburg Ranch, most courses in the valley can't sniff what they have done out there. Obviously being maintained and not played of for 6/7 years really gave them something special out there.

[vallygolf]

Three of the best tracks in the nation (minus the obviously poor bunkers at wekopa mentioned in the initial post... they are unplayable, a travesty). I realize there havent been posts here for awhile, but I like the discussion so ill weigh in. I have played all three at least 10 times each, but Wekopa a little more. I have come to the conclusion that I am not the typical golfer. The first of the three courses I ever played was Cholla. I knew nothing about the course, and found #8 to be one of the most striking holes in golf. It is for sure love it or hate it. For those that love it (myself included) it is so egregious that its unnatural layout gives an odd test of golf. Who designs a golf hole where there is no decent layup option? It is either go for the pinhead size green complex with death to the left with three wood, or lay up a 9 iron to a downhill side hill lie to hit a 5 or 6 iron into the same tiny complex. For me that was the fun, it was so unconventional that I was forced to hit an unfair shot to score well. (FYI playing a cut 3 wood into the right hand slope of the green complex has played the best for me). I fall in line with the original post. I like Quintero best (it may be the sheer isolation of it all), then Cholla and then Saguaro. Saguaro is to me the most unremarkable of them all. Still a great course, and the driveable par 4's keep it interesting. But it is a wide open resort course with beautiful vistas. So many holes require little imagination off the tee (im being nit-picky of a really great course). I think the original poster got it spot on.

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

Anyone want to play we ko pa saguaro Friday 9/25 around 2pm?

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

I'm also planning we ko pa sat 10/3 & sun 10/4. Cholla one day and saguaro the other. Let me know of you can play.

[lsuscott]

Of the courses in Phoenix I have played I'd rank them:

1. Quinterno - par 3's are amazing.  Course is always in incredible shape.  Best Phoenix course I have played.  Love the elevation changes and no houses around.  A true desert experience.

2. Troon North (both courses) - these courses are always in incredible shape.  Lots of great holes.  I like Quinterno better because there is more elevation and no houses around which is great.

3. The Boulders - I know this is an older course but it was in really good shape when I played it and the boulders out there are pretty cool with some really great holes.

4. TPC Stadium - good course but when there are no bleachers out there or people it feels like an empty stadium.  I don't know it was in great shape but did not love it.

5. Wildifire (both coureses) - both good condition and Faldo course had some great bunkering but a real resort feel since .....well....it is a resort.

6. TPC Champions - did not care for this course.  Surrounded by some office buildings and just not a great course.  Will not go back.  Great shape but just did not care for it.  When you have Troon North and Quinterno there is no reason to come here.  I have not played Grayhawk or WeKoPa courses but of the ones I have played this is the list for me.  I went to Sedona and played a course there and the views were amazing but the course condition was not great at all.  Also played Wickenburg Ranch and it was good but a long ways out and the staff there at the time was not great to deal with.

Edited August 13, 2022 by lsuscott

[Chanceman]

Yes I liked Quintero, especially the par 3s of course, but it’s just a little one dimensional compared to Saguaro which is more subtle and I think would be more satisfying after repeat plays.

We also played one course at each of Troon, Boulders and Greyhawk which are all a bit same-same in my mind after a few years. Southern Dunes was great though.