Does everyone steal half an inch when they mark their ball?

[golfinray]

Back in the old days (with metal spikes) my brother - being super competitive as he was/is - would "act like he accidently leaned on his putter."

I knew there was a spike mark there and he knew it too.

I let it go for years but finally suggested he not "stumble" and accidently lean on his putter while marking his ball.

He used to also pull the old trick of walking on my line and then saying "oh sorry, didn't see that", or he would rattle keys in my backswing.

I finally went ballistic on him one day over that and he stopped.

50 years later he still can't stand to lose a quarter scat to me - something about family.

But cheating is cheating.

I don't think we can always "precisely" return our ball to the spot, I mean anyone can be 1/64th inch off.

But I always try to.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='golfinray' timestamp='1433417209' post='11687368']
Back in the old days (with metal spikes) my brother - being super competitive as he was/is - would "act like he accidently leaned on his putter."

I knew there was a spike mark there and he knew it too.

[/quote]

I don't think even legitimately using your putter to stop yourself from falling relieves you of the penalty for touching your putting line. Probably too late to call him on it though!

[thekidjjv]

Not at all, exactly how would half and inch help me on the course. Now in the bedroom maybe.

[QEight]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1433429227' post='11688516']
[quote name='golfinray' timestamp='1433417209' post='11687368']
Back in the old days (with metal spikes) my brother - being super competitive as he was/is - would "act like he accidently leaned on his putter."

I knew there was a spike mark there and he knew it too.

[/quote]

I don't think even legitimately using your putter to stop yourself from falling relieves you of the penalty for touching your putting line. Probably too late to call him on it though!
[/quote]

Touching the line would be ok, but improving it would not. To me this is analogous to dec 16-1a/12.

[stp]

i lose a 1/2 inch. I usually tee up at least a couple feet back also.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1434521332' post='11767186']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1433429227' post='11688516']
[quote name='golfinray' timestamp='1433417209' post='11687368']
Back in the old days (with metal spikes) my brother - being super competitive as he was/is - would "act like he accidently leaned on his putter."

I knew there was a spike mark there and he knew it too.

[/quote]

I don't think even legitimately using your putter to stop yourself from falling relieves you of the penalty for touching your putting line. Probably too late to call him on it though!
[/quote]

Touching the line would be ok, but improving it would not. To me this is analogous to dec 16-1a/12.
[/quote]

You're absolutely right. Should have said "improving."

[chsneggs]

Badd Karma...do not do IT !

[StiffShaft]

I have never played competitive golf. Im just playing casual rounds at the public course. Everyone i play with does this. Wether its my regular golf buddies or people i get paired up with. It's not a big deal cuz its just casual golf for fun. I still notice it alot

[Hstead]

In my mind if you upset the golf gods they will punish you harder, so no way do I do it. I think over time if you do that you will miss more putts than it helps you make because you will have hit a few a half inch too hard.

[threeunder68004]

[quote name='golfinray' timestamp='1432827794' post='11643332']
I do not.

What possible difference could a half an inch make?
[/quote]A small amount still on the same line doesn't make a difference, however a small amount left or right to avoid a spike mark...BIG difference!

[Mizzylefty]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

[golfDAD_21]

It it doesn't get me inside the grip...I take nothing. ha

[Sawgrass]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

This Decision should give you some comfort:

 

18/4

 

Television Evidence Shows Ball at Rest Changed Position But by Amount Not Reasonably Discernible to Naked Eye

 

Q.A player addresses his ball. He observes a slight motion of the ball but believes that it has only oscillated and has not left its original position. He therefore plays the ball as it lies. Later, the Committee becomes aware from television evidence that the ball had in fact left its position and come to rest in another place, although that change of position was such that it was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time of the incident. What is the ruling?

 

A.The ball is deemed not to have moved and therefore there is no penalty under Rule 18-2. The Definition of "Moved" - when a ball "leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place" - does not contemplate movements of the ball that are only discernible through the use of high definition television or any other form of sophisticated technology.

 

When determining whether or not his ball at rest has moved, a player must make that judgment based on all the information readily available to him at the time, so that he can determine whether the ball must be replaced under Rule 18-2 or another applicable Rule. When the player's ball has left its original position and come to rest in another place by an amount that was not reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, a player's determination that the ball has not moved will be deemed to be conclusive, even if that determination is later shown to be incorrect through the use of sophisticated technology.

 

On the other hand, if the Committee determines, based on all of the evidence it has available, that the ball changed its position by an amount that was reasonably discernible to the naked eye at the time, the ball is deemed to have moved. As the player did not replace the ball, he incurs a penalty under the applicable Rule and Rule 20-7c for playing from a wrong place.

 

These principles apply to any review of technological evidence by the Committee, whether before the player makes his next stroke or any time thereafter. These principles also apply in a situation in which the player made no determination whether or not his ball at rest moved (e.g., because he had walked away from his ball after addressing it, was not looking at his ball, or otherwise did not observe any motion of the ball or have any reason to believe that his ball might have moved).

 

Before determining whether his ball has moved, it is advisable for the player to obtain information from nearby witnesses to the incident and to seek guidance from a referee if one is immediately available. (Revised)

[Mizzylefty]

Many thanks for that. I knew of that decision but never actually considered it might be applicable. Thinking it through further now I can see the logic alright.

Much obliged !

[irvnasty]

This one's easy to police. I just mark their ball with my mark too! :taunt:

[George1174]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

[LeoLeo99]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

 

Agreed. You're never going to replace it at the exact spot every time. Refer to that woman pro that got penalized/DQ'd for what's not close enough. LOL. .

[Sawgrass]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

 

Regarding the use of the putter head not being in the Rules, the Note in 20-1 says:

 

 

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side

 

 

[RickK]

Nope, I do not. I slide the coin right up to the ball. How I was taught to play and respect the game.

[Matt J]

Always wondered if this is the attraction to the poker chip. It looks a lot less obvious when you replace if you're varying to gain an advantage, in alignment more than distance I would guess.

[nitram]

Give or take 1/4

[DaveLeeNC]

Just because I marked my ball with a football helmet (7 times) and that putt that you thought I had that was downhill is now an uphill putt - do not jump to any quick conclusions.

 

dave

[George1174]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

 

Regarding the use of the putter head not being in the Rules, the Note in 20-1 says:

 

 

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side

 

Yes, but a *should* is not a must. I could mark my ball using a twig and move it sideways using the length of my shoe. Would still be legal.

[Shilgy]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

 

Regarding the use of the putter head not being in the Rules, the Note in 20-1 says:

 

 

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side

 

Yes, but a *should* is not a must. I could mark my ball using a twig and move it sideways using the length of my shoe. Would still be legal.

Interesting-that is how you read the "should" I read it as it needs to be moved one , or two or three clubhead lengths. As opposed to moved without a fixed length like the clubhead, or using the shaft, or using a blemish on the green etc etc.

[ChipDriver]

Everyone does, right?

 

You mean that everyone cheats? Not likely, and not the guys that I play golf with - it's a gentleman's game. Honesty rules. We're so honest that nobody checks, but if someone was observed to do so repeatedly they'd be so advised, and without correction of their behaviour, be drummed out of the group.

 

Right there is why I object to golf as a gentleman's game, and an honest sport. B/c it isn't and doesn't - I've played with any number of gentlemen - and hooligans.

 

If you're so honest nobody checks - you're being dishonest. So honesty doesn't rule.

 

Why are you dishonest? B/c you use fancy words like "observed" and "advised" - is the same thing as "check" and "warn".

 

That you also know that your honest group has a process to deal with cheaters indicates that you have played with cheaters before and "drummed them out".

 

Golfers cheat.

 

They shouldn't.

 

But they do. A lot of them do. Tut tut!!! <lifts pinkie and sips tea> :)

[Sawgrass]

Everyone does, right?

 

You mean that everyone cheats? Not likely, and not the guys that I play golf with - it's a gentleman's game. Honesty rules. We're so honest that nobody checks, but if someone was observed to do so repeatedly they'd be so advised, and without correction of their behaviour, be drummed out of the group.

 

Right there is why I object to golf as a gentleman's game, and an honest sport. B/c it isn't and doesn't - I've played with any number of gentlemen - and hooligans.

 

If you're so honest nobody checks - you're being dishonest. So honesty doesn't rule.

 

Why are you dishonest? B/c you use fancy words like "observed" and "advised" - is the same thing as "check" and "warn".

 

That you also know that your honest group has a process to deal with cheaters indicates that you have played with cheaters before and "drummed them out".

 

Golfers cheat.

 

They shouldn't.

 

But they do. A lot of them do. Tut tut!!! <lifts pinkie and sips tea> :)

 

Golf is termed a "gentleman's game" because the Rules require you to conduct yourself honestly and with courtesy. It's a game designed for gentlepeople, but it's no doubt also played by others too.

[ChipDriver]

Everyone does, right?

 

You mean that everyone cheats? Not likely, and not the guys that I play golf with - it's a gentleman's game. Honesty rules. We're so honest that nobody checks, but if someone was observed to do so repeatedly they'd be so advised, and without correction of their behaviour, be drummed out of the group.

 

Right there is why I object to golf as a gentleman's game, and an honest sport. B/c it isn't and doesn't - I've played with any number of gentlemen - and hooligans.

 

If you're so honest nobody checks - you're being dishonest. So honesty doesn't rule.

 

Why are you dishonest? B/c you use fancy words like "observed" and "advised" - is the same thing as "check" and "warn".

 

That you also know that your honest group has a process to deal with cheaters indicates that you have played with cheaters before and "drummed them out".

 

Golfers cheat.

 

They shouldn't.

 

But they do. A lot of them do. Tut tut!!! <lifts pinkie and sips tea> :)

 

Golf is termed a "gentleman's game" because the Rules require you to conduct yourself honestly and with courtesy. It's a game designed for gentlepeople, but it's no doubt also played by others too.

 

Understood - I've played it long enough. I agree with your interpretation. But there is no doubt that people also commonly use "gentleman's game" as a justification for both self-regulation and to justify avoiding scrutiny - as if merely playing the game somehow makes their cheating actions ok.

 

I've seen it unintentionally the most (lots of recreational golfers simply don't know the rules, OR choose to break them); and I've even witnessed it at pro levels.

 

Golf is one of the pro sports that NEEDS referees imo.

[George1174]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

 

Regarding the use of the putter head not being in the Rules, the Note in 20-1 says:

 

 

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side

 

Yes, but a *should* is not a must. I could mark my ball using a twig and move it sideways using the length of my shoe. Would still be legal.

Interesting-that is how you read the "should" I read it as it needs to be moved one , or two or three clubhead lengths. As opposed to moved without a fixed length like the clubhead, or using the shaft, or using a blemish on the green etc etc.

 

Interestingly R20-1 has a *must*, a *may* and a *should* in it's text. How do you suggest that I keep them apart in their meaning other than how I did? Why did the rules guys at R&A and USGA make a difference in the verbs they used writing that rule?

I admit that English is not my first language but I understand that *should* is not the same as *needs to*

[QEight]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but my query probably isn't worth starting a new one and is sort of covered by this, albeit without the "stealing" intent.....

 

Basically in the last few months I've been second guessing myself over whether I've replaced the ball exactly where it was prior to marking. Now I don't mean anything stupid like half an inch in the Op's question, but more like "was it a millimeter more to the left" or "was it a millimeter closer to the coin or further from the coin". Certainly with no intent to replace incorrectly, just the tiny minute variations, that I bet naturally happen and we're never even aware of them.

 

I'm curious to know how exact is exact ? or what people do to ensure they get the absolutely correct spot when replacing ? Is my determination of the spot deemed correct in the absence of conflicting evidence ? I know it probably sounds silly as I'm playing golf 30 years with no issues whatsoever but for some reason have gotten paranoid about replacing my ball on the green.

 

Thanks !

 

If you move your ball marker in marking sideways to not have it on someone else's putting line, how on earth are you able to replace your ball on the exact spot where it lay within the margins of a millimeter after placing your ball marker back? You would need a protractor and a ruler. How do you put your ball back in the rough after identifying? It's just not possible within a millimeter. The rules don't specify how you measure the amount you move your marker sideways on the green, it's just common to use your putter head but that's not in the rules. It's an unprecise action in itself. So IMHO if you replace your ball to the spot that is *to your best knowledge and with the use of a ball marker* the spot where it lay, you're good.

 

Regarding the use of the putter head not being in the Rules, the Note in 20-1 says:

 

 

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side

 

Yes, but a *should* is not a must. I could mark my ball using a twig and move it sideways using the length of my shoe. Would still be legal.

Interesting-that is how you read the "should" I read it as it needs to be moved one , or two or three clubhead lengths. As opposed to moved without a fixed length like the clubhead, or using the shaft, or using a blemish on the green etc etc.

 

From the beginning of the Rule book:

 

The Rule book is written in a very precise and deliberate fashion. You should be aware of and understand the following differences in word use:

• may = optional
  
• should = recommendation
  
• must = instruction (and penalty if not carried out)
  
• a ball = you may substitute another ball (e.g. Rules 26, 27 and 28)
  
• the ball = you must not substitute another ball (e.g. Rules 24-2 and 25-1)
  

 

Or perhaps I missed something.

[bestrnd35]

Do I ever watch the other players in my foursome marks and then pick up the mar before they putt? Do I care if they move it 1/2" or so? Heck no. To speed up the game, I would that the other three players in a foursome are reading the greens and deciding one the line of there putts right up until the player strikes the ball. As soon as they mark or take it out of the hole, bang goes the next guy.

 

But that's just me, a high handicap old guy who doesn't like to stand in the fairway or on a tee as 4 guys take 15 minutes to putt out.