Azinger - "You couldn't pay me a million dollars a day to wear soft spikes."

[Musky]

Former Bears QB Jim McMahon used to play golf barefoot. Now he's having trouble remembering his own name from numerous concussions.

[Shilgy]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1437689389' post='12008438']
Former Bears QB Jim McMahon used to play golf barefoot. Now he's having trouble remembering his own name from numerous concussions.
[/quote]Me thinks you need to go back to your cause and effect classes!

[TheFatTick]

Spikes suck. Enormously uncomfortable, especially for walkers.

And bunk on the better traction spiel. Three quarters of the pros don't use metal spikes. Which means if you post here and you claim to need metal spikes, you swing too out of balance and would be well served to learn to swing without nailing your feet to the floor.

[ironcat]

[quote name='15th Club' timestamp='1437577027' post='11999340']
[quote name='NoTalentLefty' timestamp='1437576524' post='11999272']
[quote name='richbryce' timestamp='1437445781' post='11989618']Miss the sound. Played Mizuno spikes in high school with the lifetime warranty ceramic spikes. We use to drag them all over the course to ware them down and get a new pair every year.[/quote]

Does anyone know if ceramic spikes are banned at most golf courses?
[/quote]

"Yes," is the routine answer. Few clubs/courses ever say, "No metal spikes." Rather, they say, "Soft spikes only." And Ceramic isn't soft. I don't understand anybody who thinks they can get away with Champ ProStinger spikes either. ProStingers aren't all-metal. But they have a metal tip. Which isn't "soft."

Don't get me wrong; I don't oppose ProStingers. In fact, they are a fantastic product and I have purchased them. Very, very happily. I just don't expect to get away with wearing them at a soft-spikes-only facility.
[/quote]

I play in the UK and don't know any clubs that say that. I know for sure the Old Course allow metal spikes so if it's good enough for them I am sure it's good enough for most others.

[jons1]

I think it comes down to playing conditions. The only valid time I think spikes make sense is when it's really wet. Most ams only play golf when it's nice out

[nochct1]

[quote name='15th Club' timestamp='1437671235' post='12006632']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1437624579' post='12004254']
For those of you who sneak on with metal spikes....what's wrong with you?

If the rules state that you can't wear metal spikes, why do you just ignore those rules? They are there for a reason.

My guess is that you are the first to complain when ball marks aren't fixed, divots not replaced, bunkers not raked.
[/quote]

Hmmm. Let me think about that. Yes, I think I would complain, if I saw a large pattern of that sort of bad etiquette. I can't help but think that at some point, I have overlooked or simply not been aware of a ball mark I've made, and failed to fix it. And so I have a personal rule to always fix my mark when I can find it (and I look pretty hard to find them), and then uncomplainingly fix at least one more mark, presuming somebody else with good intentions like me missed it in good faith. I play a lot in the evenings, and I see a lot of marks wit the setting sun. I often end up fixing three or four marks. Six is a pretty good limit, for fear of slowing up play. Replacing divots is not a real peeve of mine; lots of divots should not be replaced anyway, but should be sand/seed-filled instead. Unraked bunkers are almost unforgiveable.

Now, back to spikes; there is no good reason to presume that spike marks are only caused by metal spikes. Soft spikes, combined with foot-dragging, can cause some of the worst spike marks imaginable. And there is also no reason to presume that anyone who does wear metal spikes causes spike marks.

As for the old controversy involving Phil Mickelson and Vijay Singh at the Masters. There is a lot more context to that story. First, Mickelson is an intensely competitive guy who inspires a lot smack-feelings if not smack-talk. Second, that was a very wet week at Augusta. And the greens at that time were unusually susceptible to spike marks (they have been, for a long time, although the current grass seems very good). And it was the 12th green where Vijay got ticked off, and that has always been some of the thinnest green surface on the course. Due to shade and the construction of the green. Finally -- this is the big one -- recall that at that time, Mickelson was doing the "Clock" routine prescribed by Dave Pelz in which he practiced a putting stroke from the fall line before lining up and making his own putt. Phil self-created about triple the amount of foot traffic around the cup that would otherwise have been needed.
[/quote]

The courses have rules that state that you CANNOT wear metal spikes. It's very simple. You can't rationalize it. You can't claim that you can wear them because you don't drag your feet. If you do it, then others will do it.

If you have that much of an issue with slipping then fix your swing.

[15th Club]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1437743448' post='12011566']
[quote name='15th Club' timestamp='1437671235' post='12006632']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1437624579' post='12004254']
For those of you who sneak on with metal spikes....what's wrong with you?

If the rules state that you can't wear metal spikes, why do you just ignore those rules? They are there for a reason.

My guess is that you are the first to complain when ball marks aren't fixed, divots not replaced, bunkers not raked.
[/quote]

Hmmm. Let me think about that. Yes, I think I would complain, if I saw a large pattern of that sort of bad etiquette. I can't help but think that at some point, I have overlooked or simply not been aware of a ball mark I've made, and failed to fix it. And so I have a personal rule to always fix my mark when I can find it (and I look pretty hard to find them), and then uncomplainingly fix at least one more mark, presuming somebody else with good intentions like me missed it in good faith. I play a lot in the evenings, and I see a lot of marks wit the setting sun. I often end up fixing three or four marks. Six is a pretty good limit, for fear of slowing up play. Replacing divots is not a real peeve of mine; lots of divots should not be replaced anyway, but should be sand/seed-filled instead. Unraked bunkers are almost unforgiveable.

Now, back to spikes; there is no good reason to presume that spike marks are only caused by metal spikes. Soft spikes, combined with foot-dragging, can cause some of the worst spike marks imaginable. And there is also no reason to presume that anyone who does wear metal spikes causes spike marks.

As for the old controversy involving Phil Mickelson and Vijay Singh at the Masters. There is a lot more context to that story. First, Mickelson is an intensely competitive guy who inspires a lot smack-feelings if not smack-talk. Second, that was a very wet week at Augusta. And the greens at that time were unusually susceptible to spike marks (they have been, for a long time, although the current grass seems very good). And it was the 12th green where Vijay got ticked off, and that has always been some of the thinnest green surface on the course. Due to shade and the construction of the green. Finally -- this is the big one -- recall that at that time, Mickelson was doing the "Clock" routine prescribed by Dave Pelz in which he practiced a putting stroke from the fall line before lining up and making his own putt. Phil self-created about triple the amount of foot traffic around the cup that would otherwise have been needed.
[/quote]

The courses have rules that state that you CANNOT wear metal spikes. It's very simple. You can't rationalize it. You can't claim that you can wear them because you don't drag your feet. If you do it, then others will do it.

If you have that much of an issue with slipping then fix your swing.
[/quote]

I didn't advocate breaking any rules. Nowhere in the five or so pages of this thread did I advocate breaking any rules.

As for "fixing my swing," let me tell you; I could probably play in tennis shoes and get around the golf course. But I have played a lot in traditional shoes with metal spikes, and of course I play now virtually exclusively in softspikes. Metal spikes are better. Tiger Woods thinks metal spikes are better. Do you think he needs to fix his swing? Wait, don't answer that. Substitute the metal-spike wearing Zach Johnson and Phil Mickelson. Do you think they need to fix their swings?

Now back to a clearer restatement of what I was really saying:[list]
[*]Wearing softspikes, and even mandating a rule against metal spikes, does not guarantee that there will be no spike marks. Soft spikes can and do leave marks.
[*]People wearing metal spikes do not always cause spike marks.
[*]It is therefore both inadequate and overbroad to suggest that "no metal spikes" means "no spike marks." It simply doesn't equate.
[*]For all of the people suggesting that they are happy wearing softspikes or spikeless shoes, and they see no reason for metal spikes, I say this: if you are right, eliminating course rules against metal spikes ought to be no problem. We should expect that by choice (and to a very great extent, what is available in modern golf shops), very few golfers would choose to go back to metal spikes. And there would be very few problems, even presuming that metal spikes cause problems. Everybody could choose. Choice is good.
[/list]
So now, back to the way I started this thread; my question is absolutely not about breaking any course rules; it is about whether such rules are necessary in an era where it seems a lot of people have chosen to play in softspikes or spikeless.

What I find funny is the notion that perhaps people haven't really "chosen." The golf world has forced everyone out of metal spikes. And created a generation of players who have never known metal spikes. Which raises the question; if all of these young players have never even walked in a pair of all leather shoes with metal spikes, how do they know what is better?

[Shilgy]

Personally I think the new shoes give better traction-not worse. A handful of metal spikes and smooth sole or treaded sole?

Edit-dang it was trying to copy paste pictures but just getting url instead of image.

[15th Club]

[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1437756508' post='12012912']
Personally I think the new shoes give better traction-not worse. A handful of metal spikes and smooth sole or treaded sole?

Edit-dang it was trying to copy paste pictures but just getting url instead of image.
[/quote]

I get this, and I have no hostility whatsoever toward your point of view. As I say, for anyone who never played in metal spikes, they might prefer the modern shoes even if they had all the options with metal. That's understandable. It might even be predictable. Which, again, raises the question that if most young players had no interest in metal spikes, and few people would even wear metal spikes if the "Soft spikes only" rules were dropped, would the small number of metal-spike devotees really be a problem?

Question for you; have you actually played in metal spikes, in shoes like the old FJ Classics? For how long?

[Shilgy]

[quote name='15th Club' timestamp='1437757227' post='12012986']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1437756508' post='12012912']
Personally I think the new shoes give better traction-not worse. A handful of metal spikes and smooth sole or treaded sole?

Edit-dang it was trying to copy paste pictures but just getting url instead of image.
[/quote]

I get this, and I have no hostility whatsoever toward your point of view. As I say, for anyone who never played in metal spikes, they might prefer the modern shoes even if they had all the options with metal. That's understandable. It might even be predictable. Which, again, raises the question that if most young players had no interest in metal spikes, and few people would even wear metal spikes if the "Soft spikes only" rules were dropped, would the small number of metal-spike devotees really be a problem?

Question for you; have you actually played in metal spikes, in shoes like the old FJ Classics? For how long?
[/quote]I am probably older than you! And yeah, I hated the change in 93 or so when clubs all went soft spike but I think that was mostly because we had the same smooth soles and the original black widows that flattened and wore out quickly. The new shoe technology is awesome. And as to the second question if 1993 is about correct for the switch to soft spikes I have still played more years with metal. And I still use the FJ Icons. The Classics were great for the time but the newer shoes are lighter and give more support than the Classics.

[Gautama]

I miss the sounds of old metal spikes, the click on the cart path, the click-scritch-thump-f*** of someone slipping on the tile floor of the restroom

I definitely remember the transition, and the rationale we were all given was that it would limit damage to the greens. Immediately though it was kind of understood that the real reason was the damage to property already mentioned, and I've always bought into that. I do think the metal spikes offered better traction.

Curious, when you slip in a swing, how/where do you slip? For me it's always that right (rear) leg pulling straight backward. Not sure what that says about my swing, but I'm curious how others "slip."

[Shilgy]

[quote name='Gautama' timestamp='1437767573' post='12014040']
I miss the sounds of old metal spikes, the click on the cart path, the click-scritch-thump-f*** of someone slipping on the tile floor of the restroom

I definitely remember the transition, and the rationale we were all given was that it would limit damage to the greens. Immediately though it was kind of understood that the real reason was the damage to property already mentioned, and I've always bought into that. I do think the metal spikes offered better traction.

Curious, when you slip in a swing, how/where do you slip? For me it's always that right (rear) leg pulling straight backward. Not sure what that says about my swing, but I'm curious how others "slip."
[/quote]Don't know-with the new shoe tech I don't slip!

PS-Do niss the clickity-clack on the cart path as well though. That and fresh cut grass meant you are on the course and ready to play!

[Spicoli]

I've seen greens chewed the hell up from people wearing soft spikes... Foot dragging, spinning, twisting their foot. I suppose it would be worse if these bozos were in metal spikes...

[carrier street]

[quote name='Spicoli' timestamp='1437767877' post='12014068']
I've seen greens chewed the hell up from people wearing soft spikes... Foot dragging, spinning, twisting their foot. I suppose it would be worse if these bozos were in metal spikes...
[/quote]

Plus marks from every step by the CAREFUL players.

[dlygrisse]

IMHO,

Modern spikes under most conditions offer better traction than metal.
Metal might be better on hardpan and some wet conditions, but I am skeptical.
Modern spikes might cause more short term damage to greens, especially in wet conditions than metal, but the marks left by metal seemed to have more of a lasting effect.

For those that don't remember picture holes all over the green, now picture little bits of turf and grass popping up by those holes. Most of the "damage" I see from modern spikes is the grain of the grass brushed the wrong direction, which is not really damage, more like a rough spot that can be smoothed back out or when the mower comes the next morning it goes away.

Greens as a whole seem to be in better shape since the change, maybe it's better turf management techniques but to me there is really no reason to go back in time on this issue, much like playing persimmon it is nostalgic but not better. It's kind of like comparing a 1965 Mustang to a modern sports car, yeah you look cool but it;s not really a better car.

[dlygrisse]

Any Greens Superintendents on this thread, would love to hear their opinion.

[carrier street]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1437768420' post='12014112']
IMHO,

Modern spikes under most conditions offer better traction than metal.
Metal might be better on hardpan and some wet conditions, but I am skeptical.
Modern spikes might cause more short term damage to greens, especially in wet conditions than metal, but the marks left by metal seemed to have more of a lasting effect.

For those that don't remember picture holes all over the green, now picture little bits of turf and grass popping up by those holes. Most of the "damage" I see from modern spikes is the grain of the grass brushed the wrong direction, which is not really damage, more like a rough spot that can be smoothed back out or when the mower comes the next morning it goes away.

Greens as a whole seem to be in better shape since the change, maybe it's better turf management techniques but to me there is really no reason to go back in time on this issue, much like playing persimmon it is nostalgic but not better. It's kind of like comparing a 1965 Mustang to a modern sports car, yeah you look cool but it;s not really a better car.
[/quote]

OUCH!

dlygrisse dropped the mic on my toe.

[DavePelz4]

Former Bears QB Jim McMahon used to play golf barefoot. Now he's having trouble remembering his own name from numerous concussions.

 

Charles Martin slamming him to the ground and ending his season comes to mind...Martin received the first multi-game suspension in the NFL, ever.

 

[Musky]

Former Bears QB Jim McMahon used to play golf barefoot. Now he's having trouble remembering his own name from numerous concussions.

 

Charles Martin slamming him to the ground and ending his season comes to mind...Martin received the first multi-game suspension in the NFL, ever.

 

 

A sad day in Packers history. That whole Forest Gregg/Ditka era was disgraceful.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='carrier street' timestamp='1437768587' post='12014130']
[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1437768420' post='12014112']
IMHO,

Modern spikes under most conditions offer better traction than metal.
Metal might be better on hardpan and some wet conditions, but I am skeptical.
Modern spikes might cause more short term damage to greens, especially in wet conditions than metal, but the marks left by metal seemed to have more of a lasting effect.

For those that don't remember picture holes all over the green, now picture little bits of turf and grass popping up by those holes. Most of the "damage" I see from modern spikes is the grain of the grass brushed the wrong direction, which is not really damage, more like a rough spot that can be smoothed back out or when the mower comes the next morning it goes away.

Greens as a whole seem to be in better shape since the change, maybe it's better turf management techniques but to me there is really no reason to go back in time on this issue, much like playing persimmon it is nostalgic but not better. It's kind of like comparing a 1965 Mustang to a modern sports car, yeah you look cool but it;s not really a better car.
[/quote]

OUCH!

dlygrisse dropped the mic on my toe.
[/quote]Well you do have 14 clubs from the same OEM.

I've always wanted to do that.....somehow I just can't pull it off.

[DavePelz4]

Former Bears QB Jim McMahon used to play golf barefoot. Now he's having trouble remembering his own name from numerous concussions.

 

Charles Martin slamming him to the ground and ending his season comes to mind...Martin received the first multi-game suspension in the NFL, ever.

 

 

A sad day in Packers history. That whole Forest Gregg/Ditka era was disgraceful.

 

We struggling Bears fans say the same thing about the Jay Cutler era. You just don't get much for $100,000,000 anymore.

[carrier street]

Former Bears QB Jim McMahon used to play golf barefoot. Now he's having trouble remembering his own name from numerous concussions.

 

Charles Martin slamming him to the ground and ending his season comes to mind...Martin received the first multi-game suspension in the NFL, ever.

 

 

A sad day in Packers history. That whole Forest Gregg/Ditka era was disgraceful.

 

We struggling Bears fans say the same thing about the Jay Cutler era. You just don't get much for $100,000,000 anymore.

 

Nothing like paying a $100,000,000 to a guy who legitimately makes you question Josh McCown's leaving. But hey, at least they got rid of Brandon Marshall!!

 

**Goes outside to repeatedly slam head in car door**

[jons1]

It's easier to damage greens and spread unwanted issues with spikes. But if you don't shuffle around, it shouldn't be that bad. You get a little grass sticking up.

But soft spikes leave lots of marks on greens. When greens are soft especially the greens become lumpy and marked up really bad. You don't have the obstacle course that the spikes leave, but it's not much better.

I think the main objection against real spikes is the damage to the clubhouses, tee boxes, cart paths, rugs, maybe even insurance concerns with falling on hard surfaces. And they can also spread disease easier

[xxjonesyxx]

You can wear metal spikes on most every course in the UK still, never see anyone with them anymore though.....

My clubs rule is 'soft spikes are preferred in the summer months' I did but some nails back in the other winter and took them out after a round as I'd forgot how dreadfully uncomfortable they actually were.

Neil

[15th Club]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1437857278' post='12018858']
You can wear metal spikes on most every course in the UK still, never see anyone with them anymore though.....

My clubs rule is 'soft spikes are preferred in the summer months' I did but some nails back in the other winter and took them out after a round as I'd forgot how dreadfully uncomfortable they actually were.

Neil
[/quote]

Right. I've played quite a lot of golf in the UK, but not in the last ten years so I wasn't sure. They hadn't gotten the softspike obsession like the U.S. did when I was there. And sure; there may be some young players who prefer soft spikes and newer designs for all sorts of reasons (perhaps "fashion" included in those reasons).

But the U.S. soft-spike uniformity was always extreme, and well demonstrated by the UK response; they never had any crisis with spike-marks from metal-spiked shoes.

[15th Club]

It's easier to damage greens and spread unwanted issues with spikes....

...

...

 

Respectfully, I just do not accept this. I have much, much more crap that adheres to my Black Widow softspikes than to my old metal spikes. In fact, that's one of my gripes with softspikes; they are so devilishly hard to keep clean.

 

In all fairness, what to you think is going to collect more biological junk; this shoe:

Or this shoe:

[Titleist87]

There are many on this board who never had the "pleasure" of playing on heavily used muni greens when steel spikes were the soup de jour. I will gladly trade a soft spike slip once every three rounds for smoother greens. Then there is that pesky rule that you cannot repair spike marks on a green. Stupid, stupid, rule.

[jons1]

It's easier to damage greens and spread unwanted issues with spikes....

...

...

 

Respectfully, I just do not accept this. I have much, much more crap that adheres to my Black Widow softspikes than to my old metal spikes. In fact, that's one of my gripes with softspikes; they are so devilishly hard to keep clean.

 

In all fairness, what to you think is going to collect more biological junk; this shoe:

Or this shoe:

 

I've always heard this because the spike injects it into the actual turf. think of how you would plant anything. Versus the soft spikes it would remain on the surface.

 

Either way, I think the main objection is actually damage to things off the course

[Auditor_Kevin]

[quote name='YMark' timestamp='1437420832' post='11986550']
I'd play golf in ice skates for a million dollars.
[/quote]

I've definitely played behind this guy before.

[Shilgy]

It's easier to damage greens and spread unwanted issues with spikes....

...

...

 

Respectfully, I just do not accept this. I have much, much more crap that adheres to my Black Widow softspikes than to my old metal spikes. In fact, that's one of my gripes with softspikes; they are so devilishly hard to keep clean.

 

In all fairness, what to you think is going to collect more biological junk; this shoe:

Or this shoe:

It is funny because looking at it you would think the soft spikes would collect more but I recall the steel getting an awful lot of grass matter around each cleat. Looking at the pictures I sure would think the new shoe would give better traction as well!