The Frost Delay

[jdl]

The tough time of the season is when there's uncertainty about a frost delay and how long it might be. So you get stuck with the situations described here, making one set of folks or the other unhappy. Around here it lasts for a few weeks, we deal with it. After that once the clocks change, a lot of courses switch over to a mid morning shotgun start, since there's not enough daylight for having a tee sheet to make sense. Works pretty well except that everyone's finishing up at the same time which makes the 19th hole a bit crowded afterwards.

[hdr_ric]

The standard that I am familiar with is that the entire tee sheet gets pushed back by whatever the frost delay is. They do also modify the first tee time a bit. 7:30am Memorial day to Labor day. 8am most of the rest of the year. 9am Jan-Feb. However, there are still occasionally times when the first group isn't allowed off until 11am or noon. That doesn't mean the 9am times are canceled, that would be ridiculous. Everyone just gets pushed back.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444239800' post='12423250']
The standard that I am familiar with is that the entire tee sheet gets pushed back by whatever the frost delay is. They do also modify the first tee time a bit. 7:30am Memorial day to Labor day. 8am most of the rest of the year. 9am Jan-Feb. However, there are still occasionally times when the first group isn't allowed off until 11am or noon. That doesn't mean the 9am times are canceled, that would be ridiculous. Everyone just gets pushed back.
[/quote]

It is not ridiculous, it is just another way to look at things. IMO pushing back tee times is equally ridiculous.

But the point is that in both systems a bunch of people are left without a tee time, it is just a question whether people are forced to wait to tee off or not. We like our system because:
- if your tee time is not cancelled you will be able to keep your schedule (difficult if the tee times were pushed back)
- people who have anticipated the frost delay are able to play their round before dark (not possible for all if the tee times were pushed back)
- those benefit who have booked well in advance (no misuse of the system by booking a teetime at 7 am)
- only those are forced to wait whose tee times are cancelled (if they want to wait for a vacancy in a group)
- you will always know exactly what is going to happen and when

I am convinced this is something one gets accustomed to from the very beginning and another type of system sounds bizarre. Your's does, I can tell you

[Greenie]

Mr Bean you make the most sense to me. I thought I was doing the right thing by making a time that I thought would clear the frost delay. I figured I would get right out and all of those earlier times would get out as times were available for them. Man was I wrong. I could understand waiting on a few groups but three hrs. of tee times when I was suppose to tee off is ridiculous. Needless to say we were the ones heading back home disappointed. I can't say we felt much better making a 7 am tee time the next time we went there and doing to others what was done to us but if you have to play the system oh well.

[Shilgy]

[quote name='Greenie' timestamp='1444261461' post='12424802']
Mr Bean you make the most sense to me. I thought I was doing the right thing by making a time that I thought would clear the frost delay. I figured I would get right out and all of those earlier times would get out as times were available for them. Man was I wrong. I could understand waiting on a few groups but three hrs. of tee times when I was suppose to tee off is ridiculous. Needless to say we were the ones heading back home disappointed. I can't say we felt much better making a 7 am tee time the next time we went there and doing to others what was done to us but if you have to play the system oh well.
[/quote]So what do you do if you "game" the system and there is no frost delay?

[healthyscratch]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1444257874' post='12424572']
[quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444239800' post='12423250']
The standard that I am familiar with is that the entire tee sheet gets pushed back by whatever the frost delay is. They do also modify the first tee time a bit. 7:30am Memorial day to Labor day. 8am most of the rest of the year. 9am Jan-Feb. However, there are still occasionally times when the first group isn't allowed off until 11am or noon. That doesn't mean the 9am times are canceled, that would be ridiculous. Everyone just gets pushed back.
[/quote]

It is not ridiculous, it is just another way to look at things. IMO pushing back tee times is equally ridiculous.

But the point is that in both systems a bunch of people are left without a tee time, it is just a question whether people are forced to wait to tee off or not. We like our system because:
- if your tee time is not cancelled you will be able to keep your schedule (difficult if the tee times were pushed back)
- people who have anticipated the frost delay are able to play their round before dark (not possible for all if the tee times were pushed back)
- those benefit who have booked well in advance (no misuse of the system by booking a teetime at 7 am)
- only those are forced to wait whose tee times are cancelled (if they want to wait for a vacancy in a group)
- you will always know exactly what is going to happen and when

I am convinced this is something one gets accustomed to from the very beginning and another type of system sounds bizarre. Your's does, I can tell you
[/quote]

I believe your system would be acceptable if you lived in an area where frost is commonplace and predictable, AND courses set their start times accordingly well in advance. I don't live in such a clime; frost delays do happen out here in North Texas, but they're not common and not easily forecastable a week (or even a day) prior. So there's no reason for courses to not allow advance bookings to start at sunrise. I've never seen a course out here cancel all times booked prior to the frost delayed opening time, and I don't think anybody would put up with that.

But are you describing your system for frost delays only, or any delay? If it's only frost delays, why? Is there a difference between a frost delay that postpones the opening time, and a forecasted noon lightning storm that stops all play for an hour? In that case would all tee times during that hour period be cancelled, or just pushed out?

Ultimately, I believe it's the course's responsibility to get you out based on the relative position of your booked time, not the absolute time. Otherwise, don't allow people to reserve times before you expect to open.

[hdr_ric]

[quote name='healthyscratch' timestamp='1444276854' post='12426136'][quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1444257874' post='12424572']
[quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444239800' post='12423250']
The standard that I am familiar with is that the entire tee sheet gets pushed back by whatever the frost delay is. They do also modify the first tee time a bit. 7:30am Memorial day to Labor day. 8am most of the rest of the year. 9am Jan-Feb. However, there are still occasionally times when the first group isn't allowed off until 11am or noon. That doesn't mean the 9am times are canceled, that would be ridiculous. Everyone just gets pushed back.
[/quote]

It is not ridiculous, it is just another way to look at things. IMO pushing back tee times is equally ridiculous.

But the point is that in both systems a bunch of people are left without a tee time, it is just a question whether people are forced to wait to tee off or not. We like our system because:
- if your tee time is not cancelled you will be able to keep your schedule (difficult if the tee times were pushed back)
- people who have anticipated the frost delay are able to play their round before dark (not possible for all if the tee times were pushed back)
- those benefit who have booked well in advance (no misuse of the system by booking a teetime at 7 am)
- only those are forced to wait whose tee times are cancelled (if they want to wait for a vacancy in a group)
- you will always know exactly what is going to happen and when

I am convinced this is something one gets accustomed to from the very beginning and another type of system sounds bizarre. Your's does, I can tell you
[/quote]

I believe your system would be acceptable if you lived in an area where frost is commonplace and predictable, AND courses set their start times accordingly well in advance. I don't live in such a clime; frost delays do happen out here in North Texas, but they're not common and not easily forecastable a week (or even a day) prior. So there's no reason for courses to not allow advance bookings to start at sunrise. I've never seen a course out here cancel all times booked prior to the frost delayed opening time, and I don't think anybody would put up with that.

But are you describing your system for frost delays only, or any delay? If it's only frost delays, why? Is there a difference between a frost delay that postpones the opening time, and a forecasted noon lightning storm that stops all play for an hour? In that case would all tee times during that hour period be cancelled, or just pushed out?

Ultimately, I believe it's the course's responsibility to get you out based on the relative position of your booked time, not the absolute time. Otherwise, don't allow people to reserve times before you expect to open.[/quote]

^^^^ This.

Reason why it's called a frost delay and not a frost cancelation.

[lchang]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1444257874' post='12424572'][quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444239800' post='12423250']
The standard that I am familiar with is that the entire tee sheet gets pushed back by whatever the frost delay is. They do also modify the first tee time a bit. 7:30am Memorial day to Labor day. 8am most of the rest of the year. 9am Jan-Feb. However, there are still occasionally times when the first group isn't allowed off until 11am or noon. That doesn't mean the 9am times are canceled, that would be ridiculous. Everyone just gets pushed back.
[/quote]

It is not ridiculous, it is just another way to look at things. IMO pushing back tee times is equally ridiculous.

But the point is that in both systems a bunch of people are left without a tee time, it is just a question whether people are forced to wait to tee off or not. We like our system because:
- if your tee time is not cancelled you will be able to keep your schedule (difficult if the tee times were pushed back)
- people who have anticipated the frost delay are able to play their round before dark (not possible for all if the tee times were pushed back)
- those benefit who have booked well in advance (no misuse of the system by booking a teetime at 7 am)
- only those are forced to wait whose tee times are cancelled (if they want to wait for a vacancy in a group)
- you will always know exactly what is going to happen and when

I am convinced this is something one gets accustomed to from the very beginning and another type of system sounds bizarre. Your's does, I can tell you [/quote]

Well, I won't always know exactly what is going to happen and when. For instance, assume the frost delay typically ends at 10:00 +/- 20 minutes. If I have a tee time anywhere from 9:30-10:30, I'm anxious as hell the night before, during the drive to the course, and while waiting around. For me, a day playing golf vs a day of doing-absolutely-anything-else are vastly different days. I assume everyone reading golfwrx would agree.

Hmmm. I guess with the other system, the same would be true for people with late tee times wondering if they will tee off with enough daylight to finish because every single tee time for the day has been delayed.

[Mudguard]

[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1444265861' post='12425136']
So what do you do if you "game" the system and there is no frost delay?[/quote]

I would imagine you get stern talking to from the pro and find that when you turn up to your next tee time, it's been cancelled. Pretty much what happens to our members if they miss a (Saturday only) tee time.

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444282036' post='12426426']

Reason why it's called a frost delay and not a frost cancellation.
[/quote]

Line of the thread.

[CheckJV]

Our club (small private) has shotgun starts on Saturdays in the late fall / early winter. So if you want to play your tee time is 10:00 AM.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='CheckJV' timestamp='1444303490' post='12426944']
Our club (small private) has shotgun starts on Saturdays in the late fall / early winter. So if you want to play your tee time is 10:00 AM.
[/quote]

Pushing back delayed tee times and cancelling delayed tee times each have positives and negatives, but the shotgun approach is my favorite in terms of dealing with the problem (unless of course you really need to play early or late).

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='healthyscratch' timestamp='1444276854' post='12426136']
But are you describing your system for frost delays only, or any delay? If it's only frost delays, why? Is there a difference between a frost delay that postpones the opening time, and a forecasted noon lightning storm that stops all play for an hour? In that case would all tee times during that hour period be cancelled, or just pushed out?

[/quote]

That is a good question and I cannot give you a definitive answer as we do not have storm or fog delays that much around here. However, I am rather certain that this same principle would be applied for fog as well, although I cannot be sure as I have never encountered that as a player. Afa a storm is concerned that is not a problem, people do understand there is a thunder coming on and they stay at home...


[quote name='healthyscratch' timestamp='1444276854' post='12426136']
Ultimately, I believe [b]it's the course's responsibility to get you out based on the relative position of your booked time, not the absolute time[/b]. Otherwise, don't allow people to reserve times before you expect to open.
[/quote]

I must disagree with you on this one. The course is entitled to make its own rules and either allow or not allow postponing of tee times due to a delay of whatever reason. It is not possible for any course to predict weather with such presicion to tell exactly what time the course will be opened next Tuesday, or even tomorrow.

Just to clarify our way of thinking a bit.

Before booking a tee time we look at the weather forecast as well as the website of our home club. From past experience we know if the course will be shut down in the morning due to low temperature. If the night looks cold we book a time past noon when we expect the course to be open, just to be on the safe side.

For me and all the rest around here it is a simple and easily mastered way of handling frost delays. Just today we started 20 minutes after the course opened (at 1 pm). Had we booked our tee time an hour before we would have had to redefine our plans. However, as we KNEW from past days that his particular morning will be colder than the ones before we had anticipated the potential delay and decided to book the tee time an hour later.

Btw, had our tee times been postponed we could have not played the entire round due to darkness. But as we were clever enough to book our tee time at the right time we played our 18 holes well before dark ;-)

[golfdad907]

Most courses here, as frost delays are infrequent and not long lasting (generally), go in order of scheduled tee times, so we always just keep our 1st to 3rd off the box time, wait and have coffee, or call and get ETA of when delay lifted.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444282036' post='12426426']
Reason why it's called a frost delay and not a frost cancelation.
[/quote]

There is an alternative approach to this:

Due to frost your tee time has not been cancelled but you are delayed until tomorrow.

[Greenie]

[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1444265861' post='12425136']
So what do you do if you "game" the system and there is no frost delay?
[/quote]
So far that hasn't happened to me. As I said previous I would make a time for 7 am and call the course around 8 and they would let me know what time they would let groups out. The course is through the woods so it is always around 10 am. I guess if there was a 100% chance of no frost I would call the night before and cancel my time and change it to a later time. I have talked to a few regulars and they have said there has been a few times there was no frost delay when people counted on it and what happens is if you miss your tee time you have to wait for the next opening. So you are doing the waiting instead of the people that made the later times.
That was the purpose of this thread to get opinions on the situation. I thought I was doing right making a time around 10 am but I was the one being told we will get you out around 1 or so. So instead of me getting screwed I "played" the system and if someone is getting screwed it is going to be the course. i don't feel right doing it this way but it is what it is. I was also told my the pro I would be better off making the early tee time and gaming the system.

[Shilgy]

[quote name='Greenie' timestamp='1444338309' post='12429520']
[quote name='Shilgy' timestamp='1444265861' post='12425136']
So what do you do if you "game" the system and there is no frost delay?
[/quote]
So far that hasn't happened to me. As I said previous I would make a time for 7 am and call the course around 8 and they would let me know what time they would let groups out. The course is through the woods so it is always around 10 am. I guess if there was a 100% chance of no frost I would call the night before and cancel my time and change it to a later time. I have talked to a few regulars and they have said there has been a few times there was no frost delay when people counted on it and what happens is if you miss your tee time you have to wait for the next opening. So you are doing the waiting instead of the people that made the later times.
That was the purpose of this thread to get opinions on the situation. I thought I was doing right making a time around 10 am but I was the one being told we will get you out around 1 or so. So instead of me getting screwed I "played" the system and if someone is getting screwed it is going to be the course. i don't feel right doing it this way but it is what it is. I was also told my the pro I would be better off making the early tee time and gaming the system.
[/quote]I don't know how long your delays are in Maryland but here in north Phoenix they can be a half hour or up to 3 hours. Our club has a frost delay icon on the web site so we can learn the estimate from the comfort of home. But...it is only an estimate and if you miss your amended time you may be sol. Personally I feel like you should make your time for when you really want to play and take your chances from there but understand everyone's opinion can be different. Unless you have a frost delay every day gaming the system when you have no intention of ever playing early if there is no delay is [s]deceitful-wrong-bs[/s]-rude. You may be costing the course tee times if you make the first time and never intend to use it. Someone else may wish to play early and go elsewhere if the early times are taken by those with no wish to play early. YMMV

[LeoLeo99]

[quote name='Under2hours' timestamp='1444308603' post='12427206']
[quote name='Peter Kelly' timestamp='1443280079' post='12370474']
Ultimately, if you don't follow the rules you aren't playing golf! It is all that defines the game.
[/quote]

Nothing drives me crazier then this statement and reading many of these responses. The rules for the most part are so old, archaic and punitive they do not follow the rule of "common sense". Outside a one in a 10,000 lost ball (rarer then a Hole in One) on the PGA (not talking a ball in the water), stroke and distance nor 5 minute searches never is an issue. Neither are unraked bunkers, deep divots, unrepaired ball makes, lousy rough.......

To be honest I have no issues with good golfers (those capable of shooting in the 70's or lower) playing by the rules as long as they keep pace and don't think a 4:30 round is quick (should be 3:30!!!!). It is the person shooting in the 90's or over 100, who play by the rules as opposed to loose rules and working on their games that drive me crazy. They are not, nor have the skills to hit out of gnarly rough or fescue, around a tree, from a stump or cartpath and pull off trick shots They should try once and then place their next ball with an open shot to the green. It makes absolutely no sense.

I just really don't get the 100% by the rule player (and if good, I'll admit usually wouldn't notice unless they are marking and lining up that 1' putt) who won't try another shot or try and work on something during a round.....

Go out and have fun.
[/quote]
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1444335358' post='12429330']
[quote name='hdr_ric' timestamp='1444282036' post='12426426']
Reason why it's called a frost delay and not a frost cancelation.
[/quote]

There is an alternative approach to this:

Due to frost your tee time has not been cancelled but you are delayed until tomorrow.
[/quote]

Last year at this time I was in the Fins are amateur frost people camp but then I realized the Fins are probably more adept at dealing with frost with their proximity to the north pole and their way might be a better way but as Americans, we'll dig in our heels and say our way is the best way.