Pelvis is the key?

[Golfbeat]

Would you consider this the ideal position to get into the ball? Do you feel that you get close to this position looking specifically at the position of the lower body?

 

 

 

 

 

The pelvis/hips versus the arms is for me still the toughest to solve. I see still two lines of thought: one that seems to prevail with Monte and iTeach that if you swing the arms correctly, on the right plane and fast enough that the lower body will usually accommodate the swing, the other that the lower body needs to have an more active role in combination with correct arm work.

 

Could it be that some instructors have their own correct lower body movements so much on automatic that they do not "feel" the difficulties that amateurs could have with keeping the pelvis back? Or is it really only an arm and hands thing and people simply don't make the right arm and hands move?

 

I am interested to know what works for you and why?

[MonteScheinblum]

It's a combination of both. It's not that I only give lessons on the arm swing, it's more that lower body swinging is over taught so more people get upper body intents to link things up.

[Golfbeat]

Thanks Monte, I know that it is hard to generalize but would you then say that you can get most students in the position in the above picture by mainly focusing on the correct arm swing then? In particular, students with a ballerina move?

[MonteScheinblum]

Yes.

[Golfbeat]

Thanks Monte, that is very helpful!

[Millbrook]

I've just learnt something which is very significant regarding the lower body/hips move - for me at least but it will take posting a couple of videos to explain and I'm short of time.

Sorry to be a tease but will try to put it together tomorrow morning.

[color=#282828]'Could it be that some instructors have their own correct lower body movements so much on automatic that they do not "feel" the difficulties that amateurs could have with keeping the pelvis back?'[/color]

[color=#282828]I believe there is a lot of truth in this without denigrating the respected instructors on here.[/color]

[iamhuey]

happy gilmore, its all in the hips
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PbRZ5QMAs0

[Millbrook]

[size=4]Golfbeat, In responding to your post I wanted to add the videos which I found useful to put my thoughts in context and because the videos add more than I could explain easily.[/size]

[size=4]Mizunostaffer started a thread entitled – The left hip clears whilst the right hip holds – a similar issue to yours perhaps. In that thread you commented;[/size]

[size=4][i]‘It seems to me that the right hip does not turn back enough in the back swing. In the downswing the first move should be the left knee to the target and the right knee kept back to create the squat. Only then should the turn happen and the right knee connects to the left knee.’[/i][/size]

[size=4]He responded that his right hip did not get deep enough.[/size]

[size=4]Dave C posted the Hogan Power Drill video from Shawn Clement;[/size]

[size=4][media]http://youtu.be/NNwSfz0_KDM[/media][/size]

[size=4]At 1.30 SC describes the key part. The right back pocket stays against the window as the left back pocket moves onto the window. I recall describing this at the end of a golf lesson and the coach put his hands out and moved them in a circular/rotary action and said but we don’t want this.[/size]

[size=4]I’d not grasped what he meant until seeing this video again and realised that I had described it to him in a way which meant the right butt came off the window. Clearly I had not grasped the message.[/size]

[size=4]I added (with the help of Lefthook) another SC video on the same topic;[/size]

[media]http://youtu.be/ggLTM9bfD54[/media]

[size=4]At the beginning of this video he talks of the fundementals of momentum being – get out of it’s way. He quotes Harvey Pennick that on the backswing the right side clears to allow the arms full access to the backswing and create width.[/size]
[size=4]At 2.10 in this video he talks about the misinterpretation of Hogans 5F’s on how to start the downswing. [/size]
[size=4]At 2.30 he shows how lateral movement occurs but says ‘the lateral movement occurs in the backswing’. When the right hip clears in the backswing it moves towards the target and that is the lateral move. When the right hip holds it’s position it forces the left side around and forward. It gives the arms space for the downswing.[/size]

[size=4]I had never thought of the lateral move this way - Montes Zipper Away and Bump Dump and Turn come to mind here. Both of which have worked and not worked for me. The problem is not in the instruction but the inevitable misinterpretation as the new stuff collides with embedded patterns.[/size]

[size=4]Understanding how to keep the tush line and thinking of the lateral move occurring in the backswing helps me a lot. Folks may disagree with the latter but even if it is not actually correct it's a useful fiction for me.[/size]

[Millbrook]

Had to do a second post in order to get the third video in.



If you look at the following video of Mike Malaskas live lesson with Giulia Sergas (she has a lovely swing)

[media]http://youtu.be/ZmiTKswtKLE[/media]


[color=#282828]He starts by telling her that her first move down was a little twisty and it was making her steep – shows the right hip moving outwards. He goes on to describe force going into the right foot on the backswing which is the same as getting the right hip deep but adds a feel [/color]which I found useful. However he says if the right hip goes too deep there is no force getting into the right foot – a useful pointer not to overdo the deep right hip.

He goes onto describe the arm action you’ll be familiar with from the other thread – keeping the club in front of the hands and not being too shallow.
At 3.20 he in effect is saying if you get the arm action correct then the body will respond. He says that from then on in it’s all about controlling momentum.

At 5.27 he says ‘you cannot invade the space you are trying to swing your arms into’ and goes onto to say that in order to manage the momentum of the club wanting to pull away from you you have to push away from it. The hips are pushing back without the shoulders coming up.

He goes on to show what happens if the right hip comes forward and invades the space and shows what we would recognise as EE.

His idea of managing momentum and opposing forces is the same as keeping the right butt on the mirror as the left butt returns to the mirror.

When I take these different elements of what the hips/lower body does there is a consistency which produces the position in your original post.

To answer the question posed. I’m not sure, in fact I know, that I cannot get there by working the arms properly alone. I have no doubt Monte can get his students to do it but there are too many things I could do wrong with the lower body to invade the space needed for the arms to work correctly.

It isn’t for me that the lower body needs to be more active just that it needs to be more [b]educated[/b] and as Monte said not over taught. It seems that when you get the lower body in the right position in the backswing and moving correctly it allows the arms the potential to move correctly.

[Lefthook]

Yes!

How to move the lower body is vital.

Shawn Clement is a special breed. I think he is the only one I've seen on tape who actually moves his pelvis away from the ball during the down swing. It seems to be working pretty well though. But the normal among those who do it really well is to not thrust towards the target.

Once again, I recommend studying material from Kelvin Miyahira. He has a very good understanding of how to move the lower body - certainly the best I've seen. I guess you have to pay to read his articles these days, but there are a few videos up that explains a few things.

[Poser]

snead really had that face wide open from there crazy

[donaldp83]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1445597639' post='12495704']
[size=4]Golfbeat, In responding to your post I wanted to add the videos which I found useful to put my thoughts in context and because the videos add more than I could explain easily.[/size]

[size=4]Mizunostaffer started a thread entitled – The left hip clears whilst the right hip holds – a similar issue to yours perhaps. In that thread you commented;[/size]

[size=4][i]‘It seems to me that the right hip does not turn back enough in the back swing. In the downswing the first move should be the left knee to the target and the right knee kept back to create the squat. Only then should the turn happen and the right knee connects to the left knee.’[/i][/size]

[size=4]He responded that his right hip did not get deep enough.[/size]

[size=4]Dave C posted the Hogan Power Drill video from Shawn Clement;[/size]

[size=4][media]http://youtu.be/NNwSfz0_KDM[/media][/size]

[size=4]At 1.30 SC describes the key part. The right back pocket stays against the window as the left back pocket moves onto the window. I recall describing this at the end of a golf lesson and the coach put his hands out and moved them in a circular/rotary action and said but we don’t want this.[/size]

[size=4]I’d not grasped what he meant until seeing this video again and realised that I had described it to him in a way which meant the right butt came off the window. Clearly I had not grasped the message.[/size]

[size=4]I added (with the help of Lefthook) another SC video on the same topic;[/size]

[media]http://youtu.be/ggLTM9bfD54[/media]

[size=4]At the beginning of this video he talks of the fundementals of momentum being – get out of it’s way. He quotes Harvey Pennick that on the backswing the right side clears to allow the arms full access to the backswing and create width.[/size]
[size=4]At 2.10 in this video he talks about the misinterpretation of Hogans 5F’s on how to start the downswing. [/size]
[size=4]At 2.30 he shows how lateral movement occurs but says ‘the lateral movement occurs in the backswing’. When the right hip clears in the backswing it moves towards the target and that is the lateral move. When the right hip holds it’s position it forces the left side around and forward. It gives the arms space for the downswing.[/size]

[size=4]I had never thought of the lateral move this way - Montes Zipper Away and Bump Dump and Turn come to mind here. Both of which have worked and not worked for me. The problem is not in the instruction but the inevitable misinterpretation as the new stuff collides with embedded patterns.[/size]

[size=4]Understanding how to keep the tush line and thinking of the lateral move occurring in the backswing helps me a lot. Folks may disagree with the latter but even if it is not actually correct it's a useful fiction for me.[/size]
[/quote]

Great videos.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='Poser' timestamp='1445601937' post='12495838']
snead really had that face wide open from there crazy
[/quote]No doubt. But, the danger of looking at old photos like this is you really don't know what the intent of the shot is or if he was swinging well at the time. That being said, I could watch clips of Snead swing all day long, best swing ever in my opinion.