Sand - Can't release it too early?

[Golfbeat]

I have always been terrible from the sand. Blading and chunking regularly. Today, I started to hit the best shots ever and was actually able to get them close to the pin on the practice green.

 

I felt as if I was flipping at the ball feeling that my left arm and hand stopped moving when arriving at my right foot. From there on it was all right hand. I guess that this feeling get's the shaft leaning backwards and create a shallow angle of attack?

 

Anyone else that had a breakthrough feel in the sand?

[naj959]

I kind of have a similar feeling or swing thought. I bought Monte's short game video and use his technique for all of my shots around the green. Essentially I intentionally release the "lag" and flip. My goal is to hit the shot fat and an inch or two behind the ball. This really engages the bounce and as long as I don't decelerate, the ball pops out nice high and soft. If you stall, you will chunk it. The video explains the concept in greater detail and I would highly recommend it. Once you really understand the concepts and what has to happen, the short game really does get fool proof.

[birly-shirly]

The best thing I've ever done for my bunker play is a Phil Rodgers drill. Draw a square in the sand, 8" wide with the ball in the middle. Clear the full width of the box with your divot. No other swing thoughts - just get the club in the sand far enough back, and make it exit far enough through. Practice until you don't need to draw the lines...

[SadTrombone]

Dave Pelz' Short Game Bible

I feel like the club is just skipping through the sand, real shallow, like a rock across a pond.

I recommend picking up a copy of SGB. Great read. Lots of information.

[oikos1]

[i]"I have always been terrible from the sand. Blading and chunking regularly. Today, I started to hit the best shots ever..."[/i]

It's a f@#cking sandbox! Seriously, it's Tonka trucks and shovels and rakes you swiped from the garage.

Every golfer should be decent from the sand. Well done...

[Millbrook]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1449446226' post='12688348']
I kind of have a similar feeling or swing thought. I bought Monte's short game video and use his technique for all of my shots around the green. Essentially I intentionally release the "lag" and flip. My goal is to hit the shot fat and an inch or two behind the ball. This really engages the bounce and as long as I don't decelerate, the ball pops out nice high and soft. If you stall, you will chunk it. The video explains the concept in greater detail and I would highly recommend it. Once you really understand the concepts and what has to happen, the short game really does get fool proof.
[/quote]

My approach is similar to this. We have a lot of raised greens for drainage on my course and I had to learn a high flop to manage shots around the green. I also use it from about 30 yds out providing the lie is not too tight. I applied the same in bunkers and it works so long as it's soft sand.

Interestingly as I reduced flipping in my normal swing I began to lose this shot and had to relearn it.

However I would not go as far as saying the left arm and hand stops at the right foot although you may have a more open stance for the sand shot which affects ball position.

Montes short game video is definitely worth getting and the key is to keep the right hand moving. My description for it whether in the bunker or not is; soft hands, longer slowish swing, accelerate into the ball with the feel of unhinging the right wrist (flip) to try to get the club head to pass the hands but keep the right hand moving so the club head does not actually achieve this.

Monte also talks of letting the momentum of the club c0ck the wrists and the overall feel for me is working with the momentum of the club with acceleration into the strike..

[Golfbeat]

I have Monte's short game video as well and understood the concept of keeping the right hand going. However, I guess that the left hand went as well and this lead to the bad shots. I must consciously have the left arm/hand stall well before impact for it to work. I use a 60 degree wedge with 12 degrees of bounce and the sand is loose but not fluffy.

[Jim Christy]

This guy knows a thing or two about sand...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KeEDjrJisY[/media]

[Millbrook]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1449492024' post='12689836']
I have Monte's short game video as well and understood the concept of keeping the right hand going. However, I guess that the left hand went as well and this lead to the bad shots. I must consciously have the left arm/hand stall well before impact for it to work. I use a 60 degree wedge with 12 degrees of bounce and the sand is loose but not fluffy.
[/quote]

Yes the left wrist doesn't want to break, it uncocks then the left arm moves away, hands in unison and you get a full follow through. If the left wrist breaks it becomes more of a stabbing motion.

[Golfbeat]

Chris Ryan describes my feeling best from 4:40 onwards. Stalling the left arm. I only feel it happens earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrV8JQn4HTc

[Millbrook]

I like Chris Ryan a lot but that has confounded me even though he also mentions this technique for shots round the green where I play a high flop.

May I suggest you watch it on youtube and adjust the setting to the slowest possible speed and watch the shots he plays towards the end. I'm not sure he does exactly what he describes, I dont see a left arm stall. I'd agree with what he describes as a good thought for a shallow swing but it looks to me like a flat left wrist at impact then the right hand turns over - because it covers the left hand it may be obscuring the left wrist break..

Regarding your own experience could it be that it needs more weight into your right side?

I'll have to check what I actually do, it is more likely he is right than I am.

[Golfbeat]

My weight is on my left side. I an just talking about a feeling. I have never taken a video of myself from the sand so I do not know what actually happens. My interest is in feelings that work not what actually happens.

[Millbrook]

Just watched his other bunker video and there is a graphic on the screen at impact showing wrist angle and it does look like a left wrist break. Will have to check out my approach before I add more.

[Millbrook]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1449501884' post='12690404']
My weight is on my left side. I an just talking about a feeling. I have never taken a video of myself from the sand so I do not know what actually happens. My interest is in feelings that work not what actually happens.
[/quote]

Apologies I meant weight on left side not right.

[Millbrook]

I don't have a bunker in the back garden but have just spent 30min hitting flop shots with plastic balls to see if I can isolate a feel.

What I came up with is the club starts to release at 9 0'clock with the intention of stopping the hands at 6 O'clock and the club catching up and passing the hands at 6 O'clock

[naj959]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1449492024' post='12689836']
I have Monte's short game video as well and understood the concept of keeping the right hand going. However, I guess that the left hand went as well and this lead to the bad shots. I must consciously have the left arm/hand stall well before impact for it to work. I use a 60 degree wedge with 12 degrees of bounce and the sand is loose but not fluffy.
[/quote]

Keeping the right hand going is a must but so is not trying to hold the angle. My problem was I would keep the right arm moving but because I didn't release my wrist angle I would still chunk it from being overly steep. I didn't really "get it" until I watched Monte's video for the 20th time and the part about his students feeling like they flipped on purpose turned on a lightbulb. If you're still mishitting short shots, my guess is that you've still got some of that hinge and hold mentality ingrained in your move. I know I did. Once I stopped trying to hold that angle and let it go my contact and touch improved dramatically. For chips and pitches it's pretty much automatic now but in a bunker I have to make a conscious effort to thump the sand behind the ball.

[Ajlepisto]

There's a Mark Crossfield video playing with Lee Westwood and it looks like Lee gives a bunker lesson to another one of the players and is showing to actually flip and reveal the bounce through the sand a lot more and sooner than people would think. And it comes out really soft.

[jewofgolf]

You know I have always struggled with changing bunker conditions, particularly firm ones. I finally figured out that you have to tune in to both the speed of swing, amount of "throw" and aim.

For soft sand, you swing quickly, throw a lot, and the ball comes out where the face points.

For firm sand, slow down the pace, throw very little, and the ball comes out left (more dig so more path dictated direction).

[deathbymuffin]

This is basically the shot that Stan Utley teaches in Art of the Short Game. I just picked up the book at the library last week and I feel comfortable out of the sand for the first time in 20 years. Preset the handle behind the clubhead and don't let it move past that starting point on the downswing. Just release the wrists/clubhead, keep the right palm facing the sky, and you're able to properly utilize the bounce and get easy repeatable bunker shots. As a handle-dragger, the Utley short game stuff was just what I needed.

[Golfbeat]

Yes - handle dragging is a killer in the sand and close to the green. Actually, handle dragging is a killer full stop.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='deathbymuffin' timestamp='1449605831' post='12695858']
This is basically the shot that Stan Utley teaches in Art of the Short Game. I just picked up the book at the library last week and I feel comfortable out of the sand for the first time in 20 years. Preset the handle behind the clubhead and don't let it move past that starting point on the downswing. Just release the wrists/clubhead, keep the right palm facing the sky, and you're able to properly utilize the bounce and get easy repeatable bunker shots. As a handle-dragger, the Utley short game stuff was just what I needed.
[/quote]

Except that's not what he does at all. Utley teaches what he feels like he does not what he actually does. He has a bunch of shaft lean as he approaches the ball in a bunker.


To the OP you absolutely can release it too early and something i see very often. This causes club to ascend too quickly making divot too short requiring perfect timing. Certainly not the easiest way to hit bunker shots

[NCHACK85]

I normally dig in. Bend more at the knees. Open the face more if you need a higher shot. Club butt at the belt buckle, shallow swing, don't forget the follow through. Get arms moving. Also works for pitches in the rough when it's sitting down. The ball will follow the sand. I try to make a long divot, shallow. Ball around the arm pit. If you need it to check move the ball a little back. I'm sure there's more to it.

[cardoustie]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1449433679' post='12687702']
I have always been terrible from the sand. Blading and chunking regularly. Today, I started to hit the best shots ever and was actually able to get them close to the pin on the practice green.

I felt as if I was flipping at the ball feeling that my left arm and hand stopped moving when arriving at my right foot. From there on it was all right hand. I guess that this feeling get's the shaft leaning backwards and create a shallow angle of attack?

Anyone else that had a breakthrough feel in the sand?
[/quote]

I use this feel for short high shots off tight lies .. You're onto a good feel for you ... Keep it up

[Golfbeat]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1449672142' post='12698598']
[quote name='deathbymuffin' timestamp='1449605831' post='12695858']
This is basically the shot that Stan Utley teaches in Art of the Short Game. I just picked up the book at the library last week and I feel comfortable out of the sand for the first time in 20 years. Preset the handle behind the clubhead and don't let it move past that starting point on the downswing. Just release the wrists/clubhead, keep the right palm facing the sky, and you're able to properly utilize the bounce and get easy repeatable bunker shots. As a handle-dragger, the Utley short game stuff was just what I needed.
[/quote]

Except that's not what he does at all. Utley teaches what he feels like he does not what he actually does. He has a bunch of shaft lean as he approaches the ball in a bunker.


To the OP you absolutely can release it too early and something i see very often. This causes club to ascend too quickly making divot too short requiring perfect timing. Certainly not the easiest way to hit bunker shots
[/quote]

I am probably like Utley. I feel that I release it too early and then actually release it correctly.

[Golfbeat]

Just came back from the range and confirmed that my feel works both for the sand and for the Monte short game method. Stall the left arm and hand over the right foot and release the right hand to the finish. Zero blades and chunks, bounce gliding through the shot. First time ever that I felt in control and could actually lob the ball in a relaxed manner to the target.