Arms or legs, legs or arms?

[Golfbeat]

Is this contrary to what is the prevailing view on GWRX? I just want to get it right. George is actually saying to slow down the arms?

 

http://www.instagram.com/p/_NE-CWCt6x/?taken-by=ggswingtips

[Golfbeat]

I went through many of his videos and he seems to teach almost all his students to speed up the lower body and to slow down the arms.

http://www.instagram.com/p/-SeBCaCt4v/?taken-by=ggswingtips

[airjammer]

Yes he is...the purpose is to get the body more open before impact. Absolute death move if your arms are stuck behind you like a lot of lower handicap golfers. I have watched almost everyone of his videos and one thing you will notice is that most of his students have a pretty steep backswing shoulder plane. I have implemented right arm external rotation in my downswing and since then I have never hit the ball this good (4.3 handicap). Once I got that implemented it keeps my arms in front of me and I haven't got stuck..not once...that is something that I have fought for years. The "over the top" move with right arm external rotation to shallow the club is absolutely golden for me.

[Golfbeat]

None of his students seem stuck. So what is their magic? Bring the arms down fast and then slow them down again?

[airjammer]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1451230850' post='12768064']
None of his students seem stuck. So what is their magic? Bring the arms down fast and then slow them down again?
[/quote]

Sorry, was editing previous post...the magic seems to be external rotation of the right arm coupled with the snead squat...hips only moving forward by 2 inches...hips need to be open a lot before the right arm gets in front of hip and finally go into extension to keep you from hitting the ball too low.

[glk]

I see him teaching a sequenced motion. He appears to focus on lower body and on plane - at least for most of his videos. But I do not see him teaching a slow or passive arm swing.

[Jim Christy]

Don't know much about GG, but from what I've seen so far I like how he approaches matters. It seems fairly obvious he primarily believes the lower influences the upper so works on leg and rotational action first bringing the arms into the party- from the ground up. If the leg drive pivot is correct in transition, so is the arm set generally. Here is one which appears to drive his point home.
[url="http://www.instagram.com/p/_nILsFCt_U/?taken-by=ggswingtips"]http://www.instagram...-by=ggswingtips[/url]

BTW, didn't know there is a "prevailing view" on GWRX, what is it?

[mikpga]

See a lot of arms "get quick" from the top...

"Slowing the arms" down in transition is not a bad "feel/thought"...

[airjammer]

[quote name='Jim Christy' timestamp='1451231725' post='12768092']
Don't know much about GG, but from what I've seen so far I like how he approaches matters. It seems fairly obvious he primarily believes the lower influences the upper so works on leg and rotational action first bringing the arms into the party- from the ground up. If the leg drive pivot is correct in transition, so is the arm set generally. Here is one which appears to drive his point home.
[url="http://www.instagram.com/p/_nILsFCt_U/?taken-by=ggswingtips"]http://www.instagram...-by=ggswingtips[/url]

BTW, didn't know there is a "prevailing view" on GWRX, what is it?
[/quote]

https://www.instagram.com/p/_atGVLCtw9/

This is a drill I do everyday I add a lot of exaggerated external right arm rotation

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1451228186' post='12767956']
I went through many of his videos and he seems to teach almost all his students to speed up the lower body and to slow down the arms.

http://www.instagram.com/p/-SeBCaCt4v/?taken-by=ggswingtips
[/quote]
I have been watching his stuff also lately. He says that about slow arms but if you notice how low the arms and hands are when he has them turn. The hands and arms are just above knees at that point. You can't be slow with the arms and get them there before the turn imo.
Love how shallow he gets everyone.

[mikpga]

Allowing the trail arm to progressively straighten, then allowing your wrists to rehinge during the follow through...

[Golfbeat]

[b] [size=3] Another gold nugget. Here he is teaching to slow the arms down and getting the right shoulder to the center before the club head gets to ball. This will get you open and also gives you compression. [/size][/b]






[url="http://www.instagram.com/p/_VOdImCtx3/?taken-by=ggswingtips"]http://www.instagram...-by=ggswingtips[/url]

[Jim Waldron]

I think most of the heated debate about "passive" vs "active" arms would disappear overnight if folks understood the clear difference between dependent vs independent arm motion. Meaning, when the shoulder girdle (upper part of the Pivot) uncoils in a spiral shape in the three spatial dimensions (most of that motion in the horizontal or toward the target direction) the arms are also being moved in that same direction, at a similar or even same rotational speed later in the downswing as the shoulder girdle, since the two upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle. Especially so if you have a structured Triangle with "cohesive tension" in the arms or sides. A lot of the "slow arms" comments are really describing a slow shoulder girdle or slow pivot motion.

Independent arm motion means upper arms can move independently of the shoulder girdle, mainly through arm muscles moving the arms.

[sheldonjhacker]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1451249264' post='12768828']
I think most of the heated debate about "passive" vs "active" arms would disappear overnight if folks understood the clear difference between dependent vs independent arm motion. Meaning, when the shoulder girdle (upper part of the Pivot) uncoils in a spiral shape in the three spatial dimensions (most of that motion in the horizontal or toward the target direction) the arms are also being moved in that same direction, at a similar or even same rotational speed later in the downswing as the shoulder girdle, since the two upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle. Especially so if you have a structured Triangle with "cohesive tension" in the arms or sides. A lot of the "slow arms" comments are really describing a slow shoulder girdle or slow pivot motion.

Independent arm motion means upper arms can move independently of the shoulder girdle, mainly through arm muscles moving the arms.
[/quote]
Jim-are you saying that we DO want upper arms to move independently of the shoulder girdle? I find if I don't, my shoulder girdle forces my shoulders (R shoulder out and not down) to spin my arms and leads to OTT. thanks

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sheldonjhacker' timestamp='1451249580' post='12768844']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1451249264' post='12768828']
I think most of the heated debate about "passive" vs "active" arms would disappear overnight if folks understood the clear difference between dependent vs independent arm motion. Meaning, when the shoulder girdle (upper part of the Pivot) uncoils in a spiral shape in the three spatial dimensions (most of that motion in the horizontal or toward the target direction) the arms are also being moved in that same direction, at a similar or even same rotational speed later in the downswing as the shoulder girdle, since the two upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle. Especially so if you have a structured Triangle with "cohesive tension" in the arms or sides. A lot of the "slow arms" comments are really describing a slow shoulder girdle or slow pivot motion.

Independent arm motion means upper arms can move independently of the shoulder girdle, mainly through arm muscles moving the arms.
[/quote]
Jim-are you saying that we DO want upper arms to move independently of the shoulder girdle? I find if I don't, my shoulder girdle forces my shoulders (R shoulder out and not down) to spin my arms and leads to OTT. thanks
[/quote]

If your Triangle is good on the backswing, and you don't independently move your arms too much to the right of mid-line so that you are not "stuck" at the Top, then there is only a small amount of toward mid-line independent arm motion that will happen on the downswing prior to impact, and that is from pivot forces along with the un-folding of the right arm angle at the elbow joint causing independent arm motion toward mid-line.

Most OTT issues are not really a result of the shoulder girdle spinning too early or too fast, but rather doing so without also Tilt Switching early on in Transition and then continuing to Tilt as the forward swing contintues.

Tilt Switch creates "right shoulder down", ie right side of shoulder girdle rocks down an equal amount to left side rocking upwards.

When most golfers hear "speed up the arms" their minds interpret that as "swing the upper arms sideways across mid-line of the torso" - mostly due to the Arm Swing Illusion. I want my students to have fast moving arms, but because of the shoulder girdle moving the arms dependently primarily. Some will have "slow arms" more due the the Steering Impulse which is really more of a mental issue, ie a kind of a flinch, than a mechanical issue. They "hold on" during Transition and don't let that natural right arm straightening dynamic happen,

[Golfbeat]

Jim, what do you think of this lower body action? I have never seen it explained like this. Looks a bit like Kelvin M.

http://www.instagram.com/p/7eF8gsCt1F/?taken-by=ggswingtips

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1451260748' post='12769436']
Jim, what do you think of this lower body action? I have never seen it explained like this. Looks a bit like Kelvin M.

[url="http://www.instagram.com/p/7eF8gsCt1F/?taken-by=ggswingtips"]http://www.instagram...-by=ggswingtips[/url]
[/quote]

Not enough info in that short clip for me to comment fairly, so I could be way off-base with this first impressioin. Most stuff posted on youtube, instagram, Fbook, etc is "swing corrective" instruction, ie specific to countering a particular flaw and NOT "model" or "ideal" swing information. If someone actually did that lower body move, it would be a flaw, since it was mostly rotation with not enough lateral shift into left leg. Likely his student had too much lateral shift in his swing and the instructor was showing him an exagerration drill/intent/feel to get away from that too big a lateral sway flaw. Also the student actually increases left knee flex as the move continues and you want to actually be in the process of straightening the left knee during Release, not increasing the flex.

Someone needs to start a thread here on wrx about the radical and clear difference between swing corrective teaching and model teaching, because clearly there are a whole lot of folks here who constantly conflate the two things.