Calif. court throws out caddie lawsuit against PGA Tour

[scotee]

Sounds like they did not have much of a case on the bibs. The judge did agree that their complaint of "poor treatment" by the Tour had some merit. Are caddies treated poorly by the PGA Tour?

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/california-court-throws-out-caddie-lawsuit-against-pga-tour/ar-BBpm3zc?li=BBnb7Kz

[KYMAR]

Bibs? We talkin' 'bout bibs? Bibs? We talking bibs?..... Bibs? Case dismissed.

[EKELLY]

Like anyone with a brain didn't see that coming!......LOL

[Hawkeye77]

No surprise there and the case had no merit from the start. Sadly no surprise a judge strays from the law and throws in the "poor treatment" thing. Stick to the facts and the law, no reason to throw them a bone in the form of sympathy when you've dismissed the case and done your job as a judge.

[golfgirlrobin]

You really have to have a boatload of nothing to get a suit tossed at this early stage.

 

While you might not get anywhere on the bib issue, the poor treatment issues need to be taken care of by the players. Get a dozen top players to insist on changes and it happens overnight. If the players don't care that much, then the tour won't move.

[scotee]

I would be curious as to the specific complaints. No access to players areas in the clubhouse and locker room. Anything else? Poor treatment I think would include more than this.

[mizmatt]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

[Holy Moses]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

[golfgirlrobin]

I would be curious as to the specific complaints. No access to players areas in the clubhouse and locker room. Anything else? Poor treatment I think would include more than this.

 

At the Honda Classic last year, they stuck the caddies in a three sided metal shed during a weather delay that included lightening. Lot of people very upset, and, apparently, it wasn't an unusual situation.

[BMC]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

 

The caddies wouldn't be there without the pros. The pros say "wear the bib with Pepsi on it", it's their job. Plenty of good caddies waiting for the opportunity who would be glad to wear it.

 

Caddies can't go in the player's area? They're not players.

[Holy Moses]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

 

The caddies wouldn't be there without the pros. The pros say "wear the bib with Pepsi on it", it's their job. Plenty of good caddies waiting for the opportunity who would be glad to wear it.

 

Caddies can't go in the player's area? They're not players.

 

The Tour needs the caddies to wear the bibs or else they'd be losing $50 million a year. It's not a one-way street. Both of them need each other and they should share the wealth. In any other arena in life do you advertise for someone else an make absolutely nothing for it?

[BMC]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

 

The caddies wouldn't be there without the pros. The pros say "wear the bib with Pepsi on it", it's their job. Plenty of good caddies waiting for the opportunity who would be glad to wear it.

 

Caddies can't go in the player's area? They're not players.

 

The Tour needs the caddies to wear the bibs or else they'd be losing $50 million a year. It's not a one-way street. Both of them need each other and they should share the wealth. In any other arena in life do you advertise for someone else an make absolutely nothing for it?

 

WTF? If I work for Home Depot and they tell me to wear the orange bib, I wear it.

[Holy Moses]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

 

The caddies wouldn't be there without the pros. The pros say "wear the bib with Pepsi on it", it's their job. Plenty of good caddies waiting for the opportunity who would be glad to wear it.

 

Caddies can't go in the player's area? They're not players.

 

The Tour needs the caddies to wear the bibs or else they'd be losing $50 million a year. It's not a one-way street. Both of them need each other and they should share the wealth. In any other arena in life do you advertise for someone else an make absolutely nothing for it?

 

WTF? If I work for Home Depot and they tell me to wear the orange bib, I wear it.

 

You get a paycheck, the caddies get nothing

[ratspros]

 

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

 

The caddies wouldn't be there without the pros. The pros say "wear the bib with Pepsi on it", it's their job. Plenty of good caddies waiting for the opportunity who would be glad to wear it.

 

Caddies can't go in the player's area? They're not players.

 

The Tour needs the caddies to wear the bibs or else they'd be losing $50 million a year. It's not a one-way street. Both of them need each other and they should share the wealth. In any other arena in life do you advertise for someone else an make absolutely nothing for it?

 

WTF? If I work for Home Depot and they tell me to wear the orange bib, I wear it.

 

You get a paycheck, the caddies get nothing

 

Do you think the caddies volunteer their services? They do make a paycheque, a rather good one at that. All this sponsorship money gets thrown into the PGA Tour "pot", along with tv revenue, ticket sales, etc.... This "pot" then gets used to pay salaries, run the Tour and yes even some of this "pot" goes to the purses. The caddies then get paid a portion of the purses by how much their player wins. Let's go on the low side here and say the average Tour purse is $6mm x 48 tournaments a year = $288mm in purses. Lets say these tour players all get cheap and pay out only 7% to their caddies. That's slightly over $20mm paid to the caddies in a year. Divide that by the 160 full time caddies on tour and it averages out to $126,000 per caddie. Now they could NOT wear the bibs and cost the Tour $50mm in revenue. But guess what that lowers the purses by $50mm because I don't think the ol' commish is going to take a pay cut and the cost to run the tour isn't going to change and the amount they give to charities isn't going to be the first thing they cut. Anyways take that $50mm away from the purses and now the caddies can average out at $104,000 a year/caddie. I'm no rocket surgeon but I'm pretty sure I'd rather make $126,000 and wear a bib instead of making $104,000 and not have a bib.

[awil]

You do realize 7% is the number most caddy's get for a top5 /10. 10% for a win 5% for like a top 15/20 depending on the player caddy relationship

 

Other wise it's about 2500$ a week they pay there airfare lodging and food costs along with a rental car if needed

[Holy Moses]

Most caddies are not making a lot of money. Most make less than $100,000 before expenses. And I'm pretty sure the majority of caddies wouldn't mind seeing the overall tournament winnings go down so that they could all be given the security of health insurance and retirement.

 

5% of total bib revenue is what I think they want. It's not a lot to ask for and they deserve it.

[Holy Moses]

You do realize 7% is the number most caddy's get for a top5 /10. 10% for a win 5% for like a top 15/20 depending on the player caddy relationship

 

Other wise it's about 2500$ a week they pay there airfare lodging and food costs along with a rental car if needed

 

$2500 a week? I think that number is way too high. Try $1,000-$1500.

[lake2195]

But most caddies are not on the bag for all 48 tournaments more like 20-30 range so even at 30 events using your same math that's 78k per year take away 30K per year for expenses that's 48k per year. So even if the tour could pay the caddies something like $40 a day to wear the bib over 4 days for 30 tournaments that's 4800 or 10% of what they actually take home at the end of a year.

[golfgirlrobin]

The fact remains, lessen the benefit to the sponsor and you lessen the reasons for them to be involved.

 

People seem to believe that the tour has always, and will always, exist in its current form. Bad economies, changes to tax policies, changing demographics which affect TV viewership, can all make for gaps on the schedule where that caddie is getting 5-7-10% of nothing.

 

The PGA Tour isn't as immune from what shook the LPGA as people think. Think back to the whole Northern Trust issue a few years back when politicians decided to make sponsoring golf tournaments the poster boy for big business excess.

[widow-maker]

Much ado about nothing, and if they are required to wear them, wear them inside out if they disagree. Stupid bibs are reversible. No one notices caddies anyway.

 

The bibs are worth a few million in advertising per tournament. I thought the caddies had a good case legally and morally. Too bad for them.

 

The caddies wouldn't be there without the pros. The pros say "wear the bib with Pepsi on it", it's their job. Plenty of good caddies waiting for the opportunity who would be glad to wear it.

 

Caddies can't go in the player's area? They're not players.

 

The Tour needs the caddies to wear the bibs or else they'd be losing $50 million a year. It's not a one-way street. Both of them need each other and they should share the wealth. In any other arena in life do you advertise for someone else an make absolutely nothing for it?

The players are making that $50 million a year. The caddies are independent contractors paid by the players. If they want their share of the $50 million, then they should get it from the players. The PGA tour does not hire the caddies, nor are they responsible for paying them. If the tour were to pay the caddies, it would come out of the players cut. Either way you slice it, any money going to the caddies comes out of the players share.

[Holy Moses]

It is big business. The Tour doesn't pay taxes, gives away that tax money to charities, and yet won't give a measly 5% to the caddies.

[Holy Moses]

If you don't want to hire me then you shouldn't make any money off me either.

 

The players are also independent contractors. Yet the Tour has a healthcare plan for them. It can work if you want it to work.

[ratspros]

You do realize 7% is the number most caddy's get for a top5 /10. 10% for a win 5% for like a top 15/20 depending on the player caddy relationship

 

Other wise it's about 2500$ a week they pay there airfare lodging and food costs along with a rental car if needed

 

You do realize that the math you provide actually increases the "cheap" percentage of 7% I gave out to a whopping 10.45% your way right.

 

Lets break it down based on the Phoenix Open as its a pretty average tournament purse. (I love Math)

 

Hideki winnner winner chicken dinner gives out 10%. That's $117,000 in caddie earnings

2-5 pay out 7% out of their $1,716,000 in earnings. That's another $120,000 in caddie earnings

Top 23 pay out 5% out of their $2,810,000 in earnings. That's another $140,000 in caddie earnings

 

Now you say others get paid $2,500 a week which I think is wrong. I'm thinking it's more like $1,000 based on conversations with Tour pros. But lets use the numbers you threw out of thin air. 121 Players finished lower than 23rd place x $2,500 a caddie and that's another $302,500 in caddie earnings.

 

So we now have a grand total of $679,500 in caddie earnings and a purse of $6,500,000. Giving us an astronomical percentage of 10.45%.

 

You lower that number caddies get paid outside of the top 20 from $2,500 to $1,000 and the total caddie earnings that week are $498,000. And guess what percentage that is to the purse? 7.66%.

 

So I stick to my original calculations that caddies get about 7% of the total purses on the PGA Tour.

 

Man I love math.

[MtlJeff]

Many people in various jobs advertise for their company and get "nothing" from it. Our company does promotional videos for ourselves and vendors. If that leads to more sales the people in the videos don't get an individual cut from it. The caddies wear bibs as part of their job, they are contracted through the player, if they have an issue with it they can refuse the job. I don't know of any players that put a gun to a persons head and forced them to be a caddy

 

I could go into the 19th hole and start a thread titled "hey guys, what do you think of socialism?" and you can imagine how that thread would go. Or i could say "you know, companies owe their entry level staff way more money and this should come out of management's pay"...and again, there'd be heated fights. But most of the comments over the years in the caddy threads seem to be about "well the tour makes so much money, they should just share it with the caddies"

 

Why? Does any singular viewer watch golf for the caddies? Does the tour need caddies to survive? If the tour banned caddies tomorrow would any players quit or would they figure it's better to just carry their own bag and take the millions rather then go find an office job?

 

Seriously, nothing against caddies. But there's people out in the world in all sorts of walks of life who worry about their jobs, or who make 60K while their CEO makes 13M. Their choices are to quit or deal with it. Don't like it? That's capitalism. Prove your worth.

 

If the caddies think wearing the bib is horrible and unfair, my suggestion would be to go on strike or quit. Like people in the real world do. See how that works out.

[ratspros]

But most caddies are not on the bag for all 48 tournaments more like 20-30 range so even at 30 events using your same math that's 78k per year take away 30K per year for expenses that's 48k per year. So even if the tour could pay the caddies something like $40 a day to wear the bib over 4 days for 30 tournaments that's 4800 or 10% of what they actually take home at the end of a year.

 

Most caddies that aren't on a "top bag" work for other golfers the weeks that their main guy is taking a break. I'd say an average caddie that doesn't have a stud player works 40+ weeks a year. Most of the travel expenses once again are paid by the player not the caddie.

[MadGolfer76]

Was the objection ever about wearing the bibs? I thought it was about not having advertising printed on them? Seems like selective reasoning to me.

[Holy Moses]

Sorry Jeff, people in the real world sue each other all the time over things like this. People with power and money can use the law unfairly. It's almost as if there should be so such thing as labor attorneys because we should just let the market figure it out. Well that doesn't always work because people like caddies are small fish in a big pond.

 

It comes down to the fact that while the caddies are making a certain amount of money for the Tour in bib ad revenue, they can only recoup that money if their player happens to make the cut, something they don't have a lot of control over. Only some get paid for the revenue they brought in. All the caddies want is 5%. Something they can count on and help alleviate a lot of stress in their lives. And I think they have earned that 5%.

[MtlJeff]

Sorry Jeff, people in the real world sue each other all the time over things like this. People with power and money can use the law unfairly. It's almost as if there should be so such thing as labor attorneys because we should just let the market figure it out. Well that doesn't always work because people like caddies are small fish in a big pond.

 

It comes down to the fact that while the caddies are making a certain amount of money for the Tour in bib ad revenue, they can only recoup that money if their player happens to make the cut, something they don't have a lot of control over. Only some get paid for the revenue they brought in. All the caddies want is 5%. Something they can count on and help alleviate a lot of stress in their lives. And I think they have earned that 5%.

 

I don't disagree with you that as a society we could do a better job sharing wealth, i'm not even opposed to it (i'm an east coast Canadian after all man!) ...but it's not the world we live in. There are millions of people like caddies, in every walk of life.... As a society we have decided this is the way it is, that people should take every penny they can get , and if its a zero-sum game so be it. Better you have it then someone else.

 

That 5% comes out of someone's pocket. If the caddies think they deserve it more, go on strike and threaten to quit. If those people are willing to part with the 5%, good on the caddies. If not, better luck next time. The caddies don't "deserve" it any more then your friend (or mine) who works 8am-8pm every day for a company who will fire him the second they can find someone to do his job for 70% of the pay

[bladehunter]

Sorry Jeff, people in the real world sue each other all the time over things like this. People with power and money can use the law unfairly. It's almost as if there should be so such thing as labor attorneys because we should just let the market figure it out. Well that doesn't always work because people like caddies are small fish in a big pond.

 

It comes down to the fact that while the caddies are making a certain amount of money for the Tour in bib ad revenue, they can only recoup that money if their player happens to make the cut, something they don't have a lot of control over. Only some get paid for the revenue they brought in. All the caddies want is 5%. Something they can count on and help alleviate a lot of stress in their lives. And I think they have earned that 5%.

 

 

Moses I agree with you on most points. I think if caddies are to be forced to advertised and not paid for it at least the tour should provide a non metallic structure deemed to be the " caddie lounge " so as to seek shelter during electrical storms. I provide this to my outside animals for gods sake! I do also blame the top tier players though. Several could get together and strong arm the tour quietly into better treatment and probably an inclusion into the health care and retirement plan the tour provides all players. They don't have to be treated equally. But I see no reason to treat them as less than either. I realize that sounds contradictory. But think about it hard. It's really two separate things. The tour gives and gives when it's a good PR move. Yet they refuse to give to those who are hard working toward the common goal . Why not treat people well who are working hard to further the " show " every week ? There will be changes as it will eventually get to be a publicly recognized shortcoming of the tour. My question is why does it have to go that far ? Why not just do the right thing to begin with ?

[Llortamaisey]

If the bib does not fit, you must acquit.