We-ko-pa Saguaro

[DrSchteeve]

I know exactly where this is going to go…I’m going to be toasted for criticizing the best course in Arizona (public, anyway, though for the record I consider Southern Dunes the best), but I already took on one favorite (Wickenburg) so why not? As much as I love Saguaro, and I do, and recommend it, and I do, it still bugs me that there are too many similar holes on the course. Here’s what I see…

 

1 – 100 yard wide fairway, subtle dogleg left, and you should keep it left to have best shot into green

2 – Drivable par 4 - well designed, lay ups best favor the left side but well placed fairway bunker left

3 – A true dogleg left, again 100 yard fairway, again keep it left, carry dogleg if you can for best shot into green

4 – A simple long par 5, every course should have one, dogleg left, keep it left for best shot into green

5 – Short par 3, good hole, all about where the pin is

6 – Dogleg left, and the first of 4 somewhat similar hole par 4 holes

7 – Dogleg left par 4

8 – Very good par 5, slight double dogleg

9 – Very short par 3, not bad, but nothing special

10 – Dogleg right, sHort par 4, drivable for very very long hitters.

11 – Good, long par 3

12 – Very slight dogleg left, similar to 1&3, well placed fairway bunker left

13 – Dogleg left par 4

14 – Great double dogleg par 5, one of the best holes on the course, though the split fairway is not likely to allow the green to be reached in 2 by any but the very longest hitters

15 – Very long par 3

16 – Short slight dogleg right par 4. With a difficult green complex that rewards a tee shot favoring the right side of the fairway, a great hole.

17 – Dogleg left par 4

18 – Dogleg left par 4, would have been better as finishing par 5

 

So there you have it: 4 very similar slight dogleg left wide open par 4s – 1,3,12,13; 4 very similar sharper dogleg left par 4s with narrow fairways – 6, 7, 17, and 18. I know the wide open par 4’s are well designed so that the placement of the tee shot matters, I still love the course, and the fact that I can remember every hole vividly means a good course to me (I’ve played it probably 10-15 times). They used the land well, and even on the wide open holes there is some subtlety to the design…but…the similarity of the par 4’s is bothersome.

 

Let the fireworks begin...

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Your definition of dog leg is suspect

[dlygrisse]

I have played this course once, I really enjoyed it, and I would play it again if I am in the area. I am the type of player who really appreciates the subtleties of course design, and I have to say there are lots of really good holes and maybe one of dud. (#9)

 

I think you are being a bit nit picky, but maybe this would stand out to me more if I played it 10 times a year?....kind of like saying Scarlet Johansson has a funny looking little toe.

[az2au]

I'll offer a different perspective (I think, let's see where this goes) but there may some difference in that I almost always play the tips there and think the holes would be a bit different from the back tees:

1. 469 yards, Par 4-This hole is underrated in that staying left makes a huge difference on your approach but the layout of the hole makes is very easy to put it on the right side of the FW. A great example of a huge fairway that really makes a difference on where you place the ball

 

2. 336 yards, Par 4-Driveable but really a hard choice because of how it slopes off on the right. I usually go with a 4 or 5 iron depending on the wind, think it would be a better hole if it were 15 yards shorter as the drive would be a bit more tempting

 

3. 416 yards, Par 4-Classic cape hole with a bunker to punish people who bail out on the right. Not in any way similar to #1 in my mind other than left is better. The cape element makes it quite a bit different.

 

4. 631 yards, Par 5-The bunker in the FW here is in the perfect spot with what I believe is the prevailing wind. Meant to be a 3 shot hole and it is most days although I do remember playing it once when it was way downwind where I could get there in two (it is way downhill after about 260 or so). Great green for the types of shots expected.

 

5. 178 yards, Par 3-I don't love this hole, no reason why, just not my favorite and my least favorite par 3 on the course. I see that you like it so we may just have some opposite opinions on the course as a hole.

 

6. 442 yards, Par 4-Dogleg left but not a cape hole because of how uphill it is. I really don't find it similar to other holes other than the fact that it turns left

 

7. 331 yards, Par 4-blind shot but short. I am never 100% sure what I want to hit off of this tee because of the bunker placement. Can be left or right but there's a centerline bunker that you need to pay attention to.

 

8. 515 yards, Par 5-Short par 5 that plays uphill. I think it might be awkward if you are playing it in three but if you are going for it in two it is a hole that you expect to score on

 

9. 137 yards, Par 3-I think it is a great hole. Usually a wedge but requires a well placed shot. Good shot is often an easy two, miss and it is a hard 3. I know some people hate the 9th as a par 3 but I don't mind it

 

10. 337 yards, Par 4-My least favorite hole on the course because while I can often drive it AND I like to fade the ball the green is just stupid.

 

11. 197 yards, Par 3-Nice hole, green is tougher than you think if you are on the left side

 

12. 476 yards, Par 4-I guess this one is kinda like 3 but not really. It isn't a cape hole because it is too long to cut a significant percentage off and the bunker that is well short of the green is a cool feature

 

13. 470 yards, Par 4-Love this hole, again, perfect small bunker to make you think and the drive matters even though the FW is huge

 

14. 538 yards, Par 5-Excellent risk/reward hole with the right FW. Would prefer the green to be slightly larger or the sand to be better because it is tough to hit a good shot from the bunkers as they are normally rock hard but, oh well.

 

15. 255 yards, Par 3-Plays way shorter and allows a cool running draw shot

 

16. 328 yards, Par 4-Different than any other hole. Tough in the evening sun to hit the shot up to the green

 

17. 402 yards, Par 4-Not really a dogleg left but a little bit I guess, nothing like 6 at all though and even less like 7. The only similarities I can detect is that they are all par 4 golf holes :)

 

18. 508 yards, Par 4-That hill is in a great spot, a good drive and the hole plays much shorter, a poor one and, well, it becomes a par 5.

 

I don't see the similarities but perhaps I'm just not looking from the same spots.

[bluerrpilot]

Your definition of dog leg is suspect

 

I would kinda agree here...just from the example of holes 1 and 3.

 

3 is much more dogleg than 1..depending on tee box and flag 1 is somewhat straight and front pin you dont need to keep it left off the tee. 3 you can go through fwy off the tee and could have forced carry of traps depending on where you are

 

There is a big difference between dogleg and tee box alignment

[One_Putt_Blunder]

My rebuttal

So there you have it: 4 very similar slight dogleg left wide open par 4s – 1,3,12,13; 4 very similar sharper dogleg left par 4s with narrow fairways – 6, 7, 17, and 18. I know the wide open par 4’s are well designed so that the placement of the tee shot matters, I still love the course, and the fact that I can remember every hole vividly means a good course to me (I’ve played it probably 10-15 times). They used the land well, and even on the wide open holes there is some subtlety to the design…but…the similarity of the par 4’s is bothersome

 

1 3 12 and 13 are drastically different in terms of approach shots played

 

1: 7iron to hybrid depending on tee shot and wind

3: PW to 8 iron depending on shot placement

12: 6 iron to 3 wood depending on wind/tee choice and tee shot

13 PW to 6 iron depending on tee shot

Even though 12 and 13 are similar in yardage they play complete opposite of each other as noted by the 2nd shot in. Of those 4 I would say the term dogleg is used appropriately on hole 3

 

 

6-7-17-18 also drastically different in approach shots played and strategy off the tee In fact I will often hit 3 different clubs off the tee on those 4 holes.

 

One of the things I have always thought about Saguaro it was a 2nd shot golf course. the fairways are wide and forgiving but to score you need to execute on your 2nd, One of the reasons I love the course is I often play most of the clubs in my bag. Holes may be similar in yardage 2/10/7 12/13/1 but they present the player different degrees of risk reward, strategy off the tee, and 2nd shots compared to what the yardage might say on the card.

 

 

Here is the "sharper dogleg" narrow fairway 17

[puttnforthe8]

Worst analysis of a Saguaro I have ever heard! Not too mention the silly and obnoxious wording: "drivable par 4"; "dogleg"; "simple long par 5"(#4,631);

 

Please don't play it anymore DS.

[wcb231]

It's a really good golf course. It can feel a LITTLE repetitive in spots, and I'm not sure it's head and shoulders the #1 course in the state, but you're doing it quite a disservice.

 

Also you have no idea what a dogleg is.

[duffer987]

TBH, 15 is as much a dogleg as some of the others in the OP, really missed a trick leaving it off the list, I'm assuming just because it's a par 3 ;)

 

I'm all for having different POVs on things, especially something this subjective, but just to make it clear: OP you don't know what a dogleg is. I'm sure yahoo answers or about.com could sort that right out.

[puttnforthe8]

I think you are being a bit nit picky, but maybe this would stand out to me more if I played it 10 times a year?....kind of like saying Scarlet Johansson has a funny looking little toe.

 

I was weirded out by the toe in the beginning, but eventually I didn't even think about it....she had a way of making me forget about it real quick.

[jjr]

I have to say that the OP's comments regarding the "doglegs" might stem from him being a 13. Although I've only played the course 2x, once being this past Dec.I must say it is a wonderful track, on the other hand i do love Southern Dune's ( 1x this Dec also) I'll be back enjoying both courses in 10 days and can't wait !

[One_Putt_Blunder]

With close to 100 rounds on Saguaro here is my hole by hole from one up tee box

 

1: Strong opener which 4 is good. Straight away Wide fairway Tee shot left of center is favorable especially to any pin on right. Only approach on course where you have a forced carry over desert Prevailing wind at players back although usually calm in morning when teeing off. Average club on my approach 5 iron

 

2: High risk little reward to pull driver here. 215 yard tee shot leaves wedge in. Green countours enable player to use the slope on the left of the hole to play away from the bunkers/desert right and still have good birdie look Prevailing wind Right to left. Average club on approach GW

 

3: Cape style hole anything left of the fairway bunker leaves wedge or 9 iron into an uphill green protected by two bunkers front. Deceptive pin very hard to differentiate between front and back pins looking up the hill The only true dog leg on the course Prevailing wind at players back off tee left to right on approach Average club on approach 9 iron

 

4: Long par 5 intended as a 3 shot hole. Prevailing wind is at players back so if playing in afternoon or strong breeze you can get close to the green in two. Center cut fairway bunker gives player option of carrying over or playing left or right to set up 2nd. Bombers rewarded with wind at their back to carry bunker and flat area on top to get huge downhill roll. 2nd shot player wants to get above the valley at the bottom of the hole to have a good look at green. Long or left of the green are dead. Average club on 3rd 8 iron

 

5: Mid length par 3 wind usually in players face. Probably the most uncharacteristic green on the golf course along with 10. Huge false front and berm on right edge of green. Players can use slop to get to back left pin. I will always play yardage to center green as short or long are tough up and downs. Average club on tee 7 iron

 

6: Mid length par 4 that sweeps from right to left with fairway sloping right to left. Wind plays into and across the player. Player carries a grass wash for their second into a green that has a false front and slopes back to front and right to left. Large bail out area to the right of the green. Average club on approach 5 iron

 

7: Another short par 4 that IMO gives very little reward for being aggressive off the tee. Fairway bunkers in play from 220-270 out narrow green opening that is blind to the player off the tee. Green slopes away from the player so generally find laying up to 100-110 yards and hitting full gap wedge is best option to attack pin. Average club on approach GW

 

8: Uphill gettable par 5 that plays into the wind. Ideal drive will leave me 230-245 back up the hill to get home. I prefer to stay center cut to avoid bunkers on left which block out the green. Never liked the layup on this hole the large bunker on the right just messes with me visually. Prefer to start my 2nd at front right corner of green for best shot at getting up and down for birdie. Average club on 3rd LW

 

9: Seemingly innocuous par 3 that is anything from GW to 8 iron depending on tee/pin location. 3 is always good here as it plays with a prevailing left to right cross wind. Severe slope on front left corner of the green which screams 3 putt if you leave yourself above hole. Back right pins player needs to carry it far enough to avoid putting through fringe of green to get to hole. Average club on tee PW

 

10: of all the short par 4's this has always been the one for me to be aggressive on. Plays pretty much straight away and downwind. Green is very interesting to say the least and very close to their driveable par 4 at Colorado Golf Club. The toilet bowl bunker is not a good place to be and any back pin scares the crap out of me. Average club on approach. Pitch shot with wedge

 

11: Good long par 3 that plays shorter than indicated since plays down wind and a touch downhill. Tons of room left and green slopes left to right so player can play away from bunkers and use the green contours to work ball closer to hole 8iron to 5 iron depending on wind conditions and pin. Average club 6 iron

 

12: Straight away par 4 one ups can be at either 427 yards or 461 depending on where they putt the tee markers. From 461 Im just hoping to hit a good drive and have a 4 iron or hybrid into a green that is 50 yards deep. Wind is across from left to right. Average club on approach Hybrid

 

13 Similar in yardage to 12 but downhill downwind tee shot left center fairway leaves me a much shorter approach anything from PW to 6 iron depending on how I hit my drive and wind conditions. Green slopes front to back. Back right pin is very hard to get to for me with anything above 8 iron and one I will usually aim to miss the green intentionally to the right for a pretty straighforward up and down. As I just cant hold a 6 iron that carries the bunker. There is also a mound out there that will kick errant shots towards the back right section of the green. Average club on Approach 7 iron

 

14: Probably my least favorite green complex on the course. Split fairway with left to right cross wind. I generally go left side and layup with 5 or 4 iron trying to stay right side to have a better angle into the green. The green is 3 tiers with a massive false front. Part of me feels like this is an homage to 16 at Pasatiempo in a ways. Front right pin is kinda a joke as if you hit a putt a foot past the hole its off the green and down the hill. Hit a wedge from the left side of the fairway a yard to far it carriers the green and ends up in desert. The right fairway gives the player a shorter distance to the hole but a narrower fairway and a long forced carry second shot. Aggresive play can be rewarded here though. Long hitters have a good look to get near the green in two and have a great angle into the green. Average club on 3rd SW

 

15: Long downhill par 3 wind into and across from right to left. A good hole where local knowledge pays off. Back left pin might be the longest especially with another green that is 50+ yards deep but a hybrid landing right center green will release off the right to left slope and funnel right to the hole. Average tee shot Hybrid

 

16: Straight up hill par 4 that plays into the wind. 3 wood to left center fairway leaves a semi blind wedge over a bunker distance control going up hill is key here. Too short potential plugged bunker lie. Too long over green and an incredibly fast downhill chip shot. Green slopes back to front so spin control another factor here. Average club on Approach PW

 

17: Straight away par 4 wind into and/or right to left. I prefer tee shot down right side of fairway to open up the 2nd shot. Also hitting drive too far here leaves player with a very tricky wedge shot off severe downhill lie. Green slopes back to front and right to left so aiming right of pin is another bit of local knowledge. Average club on Approach 8 iron

 

18: Brutal closing hole Bombers are exponentially rewarded here. Plays dead into wind everyone knows the fairway wall one needs to carry to have a look at the green. IMO the toughest part is the green complex. It slopes right to left and is protected by bunkers right, so trying to chase a draw into the green is a tough ask getting up and down from the left side to a left pin is tough. Any 4 is a good 4. Average club on Approach hybrid.

 

Completely different topic but I would love to see that hill bulldozed and angle reduced to a slightly uphill landing area. I would like to see a new tee added on the hill left of 17 green to move 18 bake to 530-540 yards. The one ups moved back to 508 and turn it into a par 5. The part that I dont like is that idea is totally hypocritical of Coore/Crenshaws design philosophy to not move dirt.

 

So in 18 holes on average im hitting 10-12 different clubs on approach shots. That is pretty impressive in my book especially you compare it to some routings that are full of par 4's from 390-440 and how many similar approach yardages they offer.

 

 

Here is a more detailed breakdown and pictures of the holes

 

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/we-ko-pa-golf-club/

[dtm6582]

I'm sure yahoo answers or about.com could sort that right out.

 

Hey now, OP might need a slap on the wrist. Not a kick to the crotch.

 

I get the bit about the course feeling repetitive. It's a stretch, but I can see it. But that's pretty much every golf course. A hole can be what, short, medium, or long and can play straight, to the right, or to the left (with the occasional hole that goes right and then left or vice versa). If you're taking the different club selections and drive placements out like OP must be doing then you have to be viewing it on that very basic level. That leaves us with 9 possible combinations on an 18 hole course, 15 if you include the multiple direction change hole. So sure, the course will start to feel repetitive analyzed in that manner.

 

This might be a case of "spoiled by great golf". I would love to see OP play the 9 hole course I grew up playing (built and designed by the local farmers in ND) and then tell me that Saguaro is repetitive.

[jewofgolf]

I played Saguaro once and the only knock was that it was tricky. I think once you play it more and learn where to hit the ball it gets easier.

 

I would not call it repetitive, though. Maybe, just maybe the short par 4's are weak. But that's just me. I don't really like holes that are 330-370 unless they are target holes. I think driveable holes are cool (290-320), though.

 

We all get our opinion!

[teejaywhy]

I think Bill Coore made great use of the property and in some cases, maybe that results in a routing that just doesn't fit some sort of preconceived idea about how a hole sequence must flow. For me, that's much more interesting than to "force" something onto the landscape just because of some "rules" or expectations.

 

I will agree that the look from the tee is somewhat similar on 6 and 7, and maybe a little bit on 17 but beyond that, really no way to say they are the same hole. 6 is a long par 4, 100 yards longer than 7. I really love the greensite on 17, the way the green seems to be draped over the ridge. So very different than the greens at 7 or 6.

 

"2 – Drivable par 4"

A sadly lacking description of one of my favorite holes in the state. Driveable perhaps, if looking only at the scorecard. I wonder how many go for it regularly? A short hole but with plenty of peril on the right. Looks like plenty of room left of the green but from there you face a downhill chip from a tight lie to a green that slopes away to the ravine. Layup is a good choice but must be executed well, any fading shot will end up way right.

 

I love 16 also. A short hole with plenty of bailout left but a line of charm that makes you want to play directly toward the hole but with disaster for any slight miss right.

 

NOT ONE WATER HAZARD ON THE SAGUARO COURSE!!!

 

I really think Saguaro is polarizing because it files in the face of "conventional" golf course design prevalent in the golf boom of the 80's-00's. Many are not comfortable seeing odd and unfamiliar things like blind shots, centerline hazards, half-par holes and bunkering that forces you to make a choice instead of just pinching in the fairway in the drive zone and mandating a singular, serial manner of play.

 

IMO Saguaro is a course that gets better every time you play it. Cholla on the other hand, I like it less with each subsequent play.

[wcb231]

I'm not a huge fan of 16, but I think the other short par 4's are exactly what you want in a short par 4

[mikedejong]

I would like to offer my two cents on this one... There is a definite divide between what the locals look for in a course and what tourists like me look for. When I travel I really like to play courses that offer something that I can't get back home. I fully admit that if I lived there and played these courses every day all year long, my opinions would certainly change. But for me, right now, when I come down Saguaro isn't toward the top of the list for courses I like to play. I enjoy a lot of the courses that are not highly rated by the locals (Quintero, Dinosaur Mtn, etc.) because they are different from what I play at home. I can admit that these courses are gimmicky, not traditional, all that. But they are memorable and interesting to someone who does not have that terrain at home. I have played Saguaro a few times and compared to some of the other courses, I find it a little on the plain side. I don't play the tips because of who I usually am playing with, so I am sure I am not getting the whole experience. And again, if I lived there my opinions would likely change as well. The course to me just seems pretty straight forward, almost easy and not as memorable as some (unpopular opinion I know, and I am prepared to get roasted so let me have it!).

[puttnforthe8]

I would like to offer my two cents on this one... There is a definite divide between what the locals look for in a course and what tourists like me look for. When I travel I really like to play courses that offer something that I can't get back home. I fully admit that if I lived there and played these courses every day all year long, my opinions would certainly change. But for me, right now, when I come down Saguaro isn't toward the top of the list for courses I like to play. I enjoy a lot of the courses that are not highly rated by the locals (Quintero, Dinosaur Mtn, etc.) because they are different from what I play at home. I can admit that these courses are gimmicky, not traditional, all that. But they are memorable and interesting to someone who does not have that terrain at home. I have played Saguaro a few times and compared to some of the other courses, I find it a little on the plain side. I don't play the tips because of who I usually am playing with, so I am sure I am not getting the whole experience. And again, if I lived there my opinions would likely change as well. The course to me just seems pretty straight forward, almost easy and not as memorable as some (unpopular opinion I know, and I am prepared to get roasted so let me have it!).

 

Nobody is going to roast you Mike...we just made a few phone calls to make sure your not let back in the country unless you dig a tunnel!

[mikedejong]

I cant afford to come back anyway right now, so we are all good

[StarFleetGolfer]

#4 is simple? I thought you'd say 9 was an afterthought or something.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

To answer TJY's question I've hit driver twice on two. Once strong wind at my back which is unusual once tee was moved way up to 280. Both times pin was on right which played into my decision. Can play left side and easier to leave makeable putt to right pin on a pitch than left pin. I love the green contours there when playing full wedge. People think I'm nuts when I say play 5 yards left of flag then the ball spins towards hole off the slope.

 

On 7 I've never hit driver. Really don't want a 50-60 bunker shot to a slick green that runs away from me.

 

10 I'll always hit driver much higher birdie conversion than laying up for me. I can often get it right up on front edge leaving a simple pitch. Worse case i have to pitch across the toilet bowl bunker. Even missing in desert to the right is not horrible and leaves a shot.

[DrSchteeve]

#4 is simple? I thought you'd say 9 was an afterthought or something.

 

Perhaps spare is a better term, and there is nothing wrong with simple or spare. It's a good hole, but the challenge on the hole is the length for everyone but the longest hitters.

[DrSchteeve]

So I should let this die, after all, I'm the one being toasted, but as one or more commenters have noted, the course plays very differently from different teeboxes and differently depending on your length, regardless of teebox. Although at 6250, the white tees aren't overly long, that includes the 426 yard #1, 595 yard #4, 423 yard #12, 417 yard #13, and 470 yard #18 (although the tee boxes are usually far up from that on #18, but still usually over 400 yards). For the average white tee player who drives the ball 200 yards (I'm a long hitter by those standards, averaging 220), that's 5 holes that are basically driver, 3 wood or long hybrid (2 for the par 5), then perhaps a pitch. Design elements get lost when you are just trying to hit the ball as far as you can.

 

The solution would be to play the mixed tees, which I do sometimes, but I think just the placement of the tee boxes could make the course play more as designed for the shorter hitters. Interestingly (to me, anyway), the mixed tee philosophy is also in place at Talking Stick, both courses, so I wonder if that is part of the design philosophy of Coore/Crenshaw. That's a different discussion - I have no problem with mixed tees, or playing shorter tees (teejay can vouch for that) - but I find that many players are either unfamiliar with mixed tees or just refuse to play shorter tees.