Is early extension mainly caused by set up posture?

[iteachgolf]

GG "stock" setup position:

 

Line extends through armpits, kneecaps, and balls of feet.

 

Slightly more upright stance with a slight tucking in of the pelvis.

 

Slight curve in upper back with lower back flat.

 

The weight should feel balanced between the balls of the feet and heels.

 

The setup may be exaggerated for a new student- as a 'feel' for the position change.

 

 

 

Absolutely right. Feels like you're a granny ready to attempt a golf swing.

 

Might feel that way to you but that's a normal setup. Same one almost every other teacher teaches.

 

I've seen quite a few teachers giving lessons, and I've read a LOT of golf instruction. GG and Dana are literally the only two I've ever heard that teach this set up. I'm not saying no one else does, but if they do, they sure are secretive about it....

 

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

[drewtaylor21]

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

 

Dana did tell me he got it from Mac, so you're right there. With all due respect though, the curvature of the spine and condition of the pelvis is not something I've ever heard from you or anyone else, with the exception of DD and GG. When George first put me in that position (posterior pelvic tilt, flexed thoracic spine) I was completely shocked. As a kinesiologist and pretty decent athlete, I have a good idea of what neutral spine/pelvis looks and feels like, and this isn't it. So while I have no doubt that you and most instructors teach alignment of shoulders (or armpits) over knees and balls of feet, there is a big difference happening at the spine and pelvis that these 3 instructors are keying into. That's what myself and Jurr are referring to, and I have yet to hear or see that from anyone else.

 

(I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong and there are plenty of other people teaching that, I just honestly haven't seen it at all)

[MonteScheinblum]

GG "stock" setup position:

 

Line extends through armpits, kneecaps, and balls of feet.

 

Slightly more upright stance with a slight tucking in of the pelvis.

 

Slight curve in upper back with lower back flat.

 

The weight should feel balanced between the balls of the feet and heels.

 

The setup may be exaggerated for a new student- as a 'feel' for the position change.

 

 

 

Absolutely right. Feels like you're a granny ready to attempt a golf swing.

 

Might feel that way to you but that's a normal setup. Same one almost every other teacher teaches.

 

I've seen quite a few teachers giving lessons, and I've read a LOT of golf instruction. GG and Dana are literally the only two I've ever heard that teach this set up. I'm not saying no one else does, but if they do, they sure are secretive about it....

I don't think it's a secret, it's just explained differently.

 

Just for ***ts and giggles I check my setup from 5 minutes ago and all the lessons I had today.

 

Same line works. Pits,knees and balls of feet.

 

Edit....and less anterior. Just not as much as GG and DD are doing.

[Jim Waldron]

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

 

Dana did tell me he got it from Mac, so you're right there. With all due respect though, the curvature of the spine and condition of the pelvis is not something I've ever heard from you or anyone else, with the exception of DD and GG. When George first put me in that position (posterior pelvic tilt, flexed thoracic spine) I was completely shocked. As a kinesiologist and pretty decent athlete, I have a good idea of what neutral spine/pelvis looks and feels like, and this isn't it. So while I have no doubt that you and most instructors teach alignment of shoulders (or armpits) over knees and balls of feet, there is a big difference happening at the spine and pelvis that these 3 instructors are keying into. That's what myself and Jurr are referring to, and I have yet to hear or see that from anyone else.

 

(I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong and there are plenty of other people teaching that, I just honestly haven't seen it at all)

 

 

Well, just for the record, I have been teaching the pelvic tuck as part of my Mid-Body Postural Brace since 1995 to several thousand golf school graduates. And scapula retraction as part of the Upper Body Brace as well.

 

And did not learn either of those from Mac or GG.

 

And similar body alignments, weight over arches, etc.

[iteachgolf]

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

 

Dana did tell me he got it from Mac, so you're right there. With all due respect though, the curvature of the spine and condition of the pelvis is not something I've ever heard from you or anyone else, with the exception of DD and GG. When George first put me in that position (posterior pelvic tilt, flexed thoracic spine) I was completely shocked. As a kinesiologist and pretty decent athlete, I have a good idea of what neutral spine/pelvis looks and feels like, and this isn't it. So while I have no doubt that you and most instructors teach alignment of shoulders (or armpits) over knees and balls of feet, there is a big difference happening at the spine and pelvis that these 3 instructors are keying into. That's what myself and Jurr are referring to, and I have yet to hear or see that from anyone else.

 

(I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong and there are plenty of other people teaching that, I just honestly haven't seen it at all)

 

You're wrong. Again because someone doesn't use the same words doesn't mean they aren't teaching the same thing. Again you're making a bunch of assumptions. I generally only address specific issues or questions and I don't post videos for public consumption on the full swing. Shoulders should round out because arms are in front of and on top of the chest. Just because misinformed teachers have taugh ramrod straight back with chin up posture doesn't mean that plenty don't teach otherwise

 

 

 

[chrisgilly09]

I was doing it before all of you, I win

[drewtaylor21]

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

 

Dana did tell me he got it from Mac, so you're right there. With all due respect though, the curvature of the spine and condition of the pelvis is not something I've ever heard from you or anyone else, with the exception of DD and GG. When George first put me in that position (posterior pelvic tilt, flexed thoracic spine) I was completely shocked. As a kinesiologist and pretty decent athlete, I have a good idea of what neutral spine/pelvis looks and feels like, and this isn't it. So while I have no doubt that you and most instructors teach alignment of shoulders (or armpits) over knees and balls of feet, there is a big difference happening at the spine and pelvis that these 3 instructors are keying into. That's what myself and Jurr are referring to, and I have yet to hear or see that from anyone else.

 

(I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong and there are plenty of other people teaching that, I just honestly haven't seen it at all)

 

 

Well, just for the record, I have been teaching the pelvic tuck as part of my Mid-Body Postural Brace since 1995 to several thousand golf school graduates. And scapula retraction as part of the Upper Body Brace as well.

 

And did not learn either of those from Mac or GG.

 

And similar body alignments, weight over arches, etc.

 

Alright, add another to the list!

 

I would argue that the positions that GG and DD have put me in are certainly more on the scapular protraction side of things FWIW....

[ShutSteepStuck]

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

 

Dana did tell me he got it from Mac, so you're right there. With all due respect though, the curvature of the spine and condition of the pelvis is not something I've ever heard from you or anyone else, with the exception of DD and GG. When George first put me in that position (posterior pelvic tilt, flexed thoracic spine) I was completely shocked. As a kinesiologist and pretty decent athlete, I have a good idea of what neutral spine/pelvis looks and feels like, and this isn't it. So while I have no doubt that you and most instructors teach alignment of shoulders (or armpits) over knees and balls of feet, there is a big difference happening at the spine and pelvis that these 3 instructors are keying into. That's what myself and Jurr are referring to, and I have yet to hear or see that from anyone else.

 

(I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong and there are plenty of other people teaching that, I just honestly haven't seen it at all)

 

 

Well, just for the record, I have been teaching the pelvic tuck as part of my Mid-Body Postural Brace since 1995 to several thousand golf school graduates. And scapula retraction as part of the Upper Body Brace as well.

 

And did not learn either of those from Mac or GG.

 

And similar body alignments, weight over arches, etc.

 

Alright, add another to the list!

 

I would argue that the positions that GG and DD have put me in are certainly more on the scapular protraction side of things FWIW....

 

Come on, Drew...give it a rest. Don't you know by now that all good instructors actually teach the same thing justwithdifferentlanguage?

/sarcasm

[bph7]

I just looked at my videos from when I saw Dan last year, the lines are pretty much exactly on fwiw.

[iteachgolf]

It's the same setup I teach. Mac has been teaching that setup for 20+ years. So have a ton of others. Nobody is secretive. It's brought up a ton of places if you know where to look.

 

Some may use different language but it's the same result. I use shoulders inline with toes and weight balanced over arches of the feet. Which is the same as armpits over balls of the feet.

 

Dana did tell me he got it from Mac, so you're right there. With all due respect though, the curvature of the spine and condition of the pelvis is not something I've ever heard from you or anyone else, with the exception of DD and GG. When George first put me in that position (posterior pelvic tilt, flexed thoracic spine) I was completely shocked. As a kinesiologist and pretty decent athlete, I have a good idea of what neutral spine/pelvis looks and feels like, and this isn't it. So while I have no doubt that you and most instructors teach alignment of shoulders (or armpits) over knees and balls of feet, there is a big difference happening at the spine and pelvis that these 3 instructors are keying into. That's what myself and Jurr are referring to, and I have yet to hear or see that from anyone else.

 

(I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong and there are plenty of other people teaching that, I just honestly haven't seen it at all)

 

 

Well, just for the record, I have been teaching the pelvic tuck as part of my Mid-Body Postural Brace since 1995 to several thousand golf school graduates. And scapula retraction as part of the Upper Body Brace as well.

 

And did not learn either of those from Mac or GG.

 

And similar body alignments, weight over arches, etc.

 

Alright, add another to the list!

 

I would argue that the positions that GG and DD have put me in are certainly more on the scapular protraction side of things FWIW....

 

Come on, Drew...give it a rest. Don't you know by now that all good instructors actually teach the same thing justwithdifferentlanguage?

/sarcasm

 

Your right the photos of my swing and my students have a ton of anterior tilt and extension in the thoracic spine.

[drewtaylor21]

You're wrong. Again because someone doesn't use the same words doesn't mean they aren't teaching the same thing. Again you're making a bunch of assumptions. I generally only address specific issues or questions and I don't post videos for public consumption on the full swing. Shoulders should round out because arms are in front of and on top of the chest. Just because misinformed teachers have taugh ramrod straight back with chin up posture doesn't mean that plenty don't teach otherwise

 

 

Like I said, I'm happy to admit I'm wrong when evidence shows otherwise. Your own setup looks absolutely spot-on with all of this, which isn't surprising since you've studied Mac and you have a great swing. My point was simply that I hadn't heard the spinal and pelvic conditions taught the way DD/GG/Mac teach them. Apparently Jim has taught that as well, so I'm learning all sorts of things today.

 

I disagree that I'm making assumptions, however. I'm simply going off of my experience, which is that I've never heard or seen this stuff directly taught before, including in the video lessons I took with you. Now, to be fair, there were plenty of other things you had me work on that were more important, and only so much time can be spent in an online lesson, so I'm not saying you didn't or don't teach this, just that in my experience, I had never seen it taught before.

 

Others can chime in with their experiences if they'd like to or are able. Ahem. (lol)

[iteachgolf]

I just looked at my videos from when I saw Dan last year, the lines are pretty much exactly on fwiw.

 

[ShutSteepStuck]

I just looked at my videos from when I saw Dan last year, the lines are pretty much exactly on fwiw.

 

 

Looking good!

[iteachgolf]

I just looked at my videos from when I saw Dan last year, the lines are pretty much exactly on fwiw.

 

 

Looking good!

 

 

Went from way out on toes to much more balanced. These are from end of 2014

[PJ1120]

Looks to me that the before has the pits outside the toe line and the after they are slightly inside or at the toe line

[iteachgolf]

Looks to me that the before has the pits outside the toe line and the after they are slightly inside or at the toe line

 

They are definitely inside the toe line. His shoulders are inline with his toes

[Cape]

Line extends through armpits, kneecaps, and balls of feet... Is this for all clubs or should line be slightly further out towards target line as club gets shorter?

[starsail85]

Leadbeter used the line as a reference point in the early 90s

 

The pelvic tuck is not something that I have seen in many books however

[scratch72]

Ron Del Barrio in Studio City Ca. Teaches this type of set up with tucked butt and wt. more towards the heels. He has a lot of Hollywood stars for students, not that it means anything but he is well known in that area. He posted on Here once many years ago and got slammed so hard he never came back. He has some old videos on YouTube. I really like his ideas.

[Golfbeat]

Ron Del Barrio in Studio City Ca. Teaches this type of set up with tucked butt and wt. more towards the heels. He has a lot of Hollywood stars for students, not that it means anything but he is well known in that area. He posted on Here once many years ago and got slammed so hard he never came back. He has some old videos on YouTube. I really like his ideas.

 

Some hollywood stars will not manage to tuck their butts in.

[corymjensen]

Less APT at address reduced my EE during the DS. I used to have tushline way behind my heels at address.

 

what is APT? How do you correct a "too steep" downswing?

[bph7]

Less APT at address reduced my EE during the DS. I used to have tushline way behind my heels at address.

 

what is APT? How do you correct a "too steep" downswing?

 

Anterior pelvic tilt. A million different ways to correct steepness, depends on the player and specific issues.

[northgolf]

 

 

Anterior means toward the front, so APT means the pelvis is tilted forward. Golfbeat's picture shows Kardashian demonstrating a large amount of APT.

[corymjensen]

Ok, so too much APT can be a cause of EE?

[corymjensen]

Sorry I don't want to take away from this conversation, but there seems to be a lot of knowledgable folks in this thread. If some wouldn't mind, I thought I've had a problem with EE, obviously it is something in my swing causing EE. Could some of you migrate over and comment: http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1388492-early-extension-etc/

[ruxpin23]

On 4/20/2016 at 10:58 AM, iteachgolf said:

The hips extend in the backswing. No need to extend them at setup. Sitting on a bar stool doesn't increase forward bend from the hips.

 

Hips should be neutral at setup. Here are 8 of top 10 players in the world. Didn't include the one left handed one or it'd have been 9/10

 

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac268/scratchgolfputters/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsxg7dly97.png

To me, I would have considered all of these pros having their butt out

[Dufferonius]

Re: Setup with rounded shoulders:

 

On 4/23/2016 at 1:27 PM, drewtaylor21 said:

 

I've seen quite a few teachers giving lessons, and I've read a LOT of golf instruction. GG and Dana are literally the only two I've ever heard that teach this set up. I'm not saying no one else does, but if they do, they sure are secretive about it....

The people with whom I'm currently training, True Motion Golf, teach that setup stance, exactly.

 

The man who started the business has a degree in biomechanics. He claims that setup is more biomechanically-sound than the traditional shoulders-back stance.  Both more efficient and less inclined to result in back injury.

 

ETA: Also, now that I think of it, I believe the instructors over at The Sand Trap teach that setup posture?

Edited September 24, 2022 by Dufferonius
Added another point