Reading the grain on putts

[MPStrat]

This has been a struggle for me on courses I haven't played before. Some putts I'll go 6 feet long and then the next I'll be 5 feet short from reading the grain incorrectly. Any tips?

[Jack Daniels]

The easiest way is to look at the hole and look for the rough edge of the hole to tell you which direction the grain is going. But it says you live in Ohio, so you probably play on bent grass greens. Bent grass grows straight up and down, so there is really not any grain on bent grass greens. That's usually only something you have to deal with on bermuda greens in the south.

[MPStrat]

There's definitely grain here. I never paid attention until last year when I played with some members at Tippecanoe Country Club who demonstrated how much the grain can affect putts in our area

[KMeloney]

I'll be watching this post.

 

All I know about is the whole dark vs light look to the grass. If the grass looks light and shiny, you're looking at the sides of the blades as the blades point away from you. That equals fast. The opposite is true if the grass looks darker. You're looking into the tips of the grass and the shadows created by it pointing toward you. That's going to make things slower. As for seeing the grain side to side and knowing what it's going to do, I usually can't see it. Probably the same as above holds true, and so it would require looking at all sides of the putt.

 

I've never seen grain matter so much as at Merion here in PA. No other course in the area seems to be subjected to such grain extremes. You can be looking at a putt that clearly goes down a tier to the hole where you'll assume that it races down. If the caddie tells you ('cause I can't see it at Merion) the grain is into you and it's slow, believe him, because it will be. The grain there seems to change EVERYTHING. It's pretty crazy.

[GungHoGolf]

From a USGA agronomist:

 

"The bottom line is that grain on bentgrass and bermudagrass putting greens has a minimal effect on ball roll, and when grain is present it grows downhill."

 

http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/article/whitlark-agronomists-11-14-14.pdf

 

[MPStrat]

I'll be watching this post.

 

All I know about is the whole dark vs light look to the grass. If the grass looks light and shiny, you're looking at the sides of the blades as the blades point away from you. That equals fast. The opposite is true if the grass looks darker. You're looking into the tips of the grass and the shadows created by it pointing toward you. That's going to make things slower. As for seeing the grain side to side and knowing what it's going to do, I usually can't see it. Probably the same as above holds true, and so it would require looking at all sides of the putt.

 

I've never seen grain matter so much as at Merion here in PA. No other course in the area seems to be subjected to such grain extremes. You can be looking at a putt that clearly goes down a tier to the hole where you'll assume that it races down. If the caddie tells you ('cause I can't see it at Merion) the grain is into you and it's slow, believe him, because it will be. The grain there seems to change EVERYTHING. It's pretty crazy.

 

It really is crazy how much grain will slow it down or speed it up. Recently, on 2 different courses I was told things like "I know this is going downhill a little but you have to hit it because you are into the grain." They were dead on. Its enough difference to mess you up. I notice it mostly on courses with really nice greens. I was told the same about the dark/light look, but that's even hard to see a lot of times.

[Jack Daniels]

I'll be watching this post.

 

All I know about is the whole dark vs light look to the grass. If the grass looks light and shiny, you're looking at the sides of the blades as the blades point away from you. That equals fast. The opposite is true if the grass looks darker. You're looking into the tips of the grass and the shadows created by it pointing toward you. That's going to make things slower. As for seeing the grain side to side and knowing what it's going to do, I usually can't see it. Probably the same as above holds true, and so it would require looking at all sides of the putt.

 

I've never seen grain matter so much as at Merion here in PA. No other course in the area seems to be subjected to such grain extremes. You can be looking at a putt that clearly goes down a tier to the hole where you'll assume that it races down. If the caddie tells you ('cause I can't see it at Merion) the grain is into you and it's slow, believe him, because it will be. The grain there seems to change EVERYTHING. It's pretty crazy.

 

It really is crazy how much grain will slow it down or speed it up. Recently, on 2 different courses I was told things like "I know this is going downhill a little but you have to hit it because you are into the grain." They were dead on. Its enough difference to mess you up. I notice it mostly on courses with really nice greens. I was told the same about the dark/light look, but that's even hard to see a lot of times.

 

So you're saying that these greens had putts that were downhill AND into the grain? That would be pretty rare.

[KMeloney]

I'll be watching this post.

 

All I know about is the whole dark vs light look to the grass. If the grass looks light and shiny, you're looking at the sides of the blades as the blades point away from you. That equals fast. The opposite is true if the grass looks darker. You're looking into the tips of the grass and the shadows created by it pointing toward you. That's going to make things slower. As for seeing the grain side to side and knowing what it's going to do, I usually can't see it. Probably the same as above holds true, and so it would require looking at all sides of the putt.

 

I've never seen grain matter so much as at Merion here in PA. No other course in the area seems to be subjected to such grain extremes. You can be looking at a putt that clearly goes down a tier to the hole where you'll assume that it races down. If the caddie tells you ('cause I can't see it at Merion) the grain is into you and it's slow, believe him, because it will be. The grain there seems to change EVERYTHING. It's pretty crazy.

 

It really is crazy how much grain will slow it down or speed it up. Recently, on 2 different courses I was told things like "I know this is going downhill a little but you have to hit it because you are into the grain." They were dead on. Its enough difference to mess you up. I notice it mostly on courses with really nice greens. I was told the same about the dark/light look, but that's even hard to see a lot of times.

 

So you're saying that these greens had putts that were downhill AND into the grain? That would be pretty rare.

 

That's what I'm saying. I can't comment on the rarity of it, and maybe the majority of the slowness came at the bottom of the slope, but this ball slowed down like I had never seen before.

 

Is there any truth to the idea that the grain will follow (eventually, at least) the setting sun?

[bluedot]

From a USGA agronomist:

 

"The bottom line is that grain on bentgrass and bermudagrass putting greens has a minimal effect on ball roll, and when grain is present it grows downhill."

 

http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...ts-11-14-14.pdf

 

With all due respect to the USGA agronomist, lumping bentgrass and bermuda together in assessing the significance of grain to putting is amazing to me. To me, there is no comparison, and I think most of the people I play with would agree. I can't imagine anybody saying otherwise, really.

 

On bent greens, read the slope and don't worry about the grain; it just doesn't have much impact. On bermuda, go read the grain at the cup and make SURE you allow for it. Putts on bermuda will go hard down-grain as the lose speed unless there is a huge slope in the other direction.

[axer13]

From a USGA agronomist:

 

"The bottom line is that grain on bentgrass and bermudagrass putting greens has a minimal effect on ball roll, and when grain is present it grows downhill."

 

http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...ts-11-14-14.pdf

 

With all due respect to the USGA agronomist, lumping bentgrass and bermuda together in assessing the significance of grain to putting is amazing to me. To me, there is no comparison, and I think most of the people I play with would agree. I can't imagine anybody saying otherwise, really.

 

On bent greens, read the slope and don't worry about the grain; it just doesn't have much impact. On bermuda, go read the grain at the cup and make SURE you allow for it. Putts on bermuda will go hard down-grain as the lose speed unless there is a huge slope in the other direction.

Yea that was definitely odd he said that. Idk if he means in a perfect world or with the right amount of proper maintenance that you can make the effects of grain minimal with both grasses or what. Every good player I have played with checks the grain and factors that in and seeing the effects of grain is fairly easy on the courses I play.

[bluedot]

From a USGA agronomist:

 

"The bottom line is that grain on bentgrass and bermudagrass putting greens has a minimal effect on ball roll, and when grain is present it grows downhill."

 

http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...ts-11-14-14.pdf

 

With all due respect to the USGA agronomist, lumping bentgrass and bermuda together in assessing the significance of grain to putting is amazing to me. To me, there is no comparison, and I think most of the people I play with would agree. I can't imagine anybody saying otherwise, really.

 

On bent greens, read the slope and don't worry about the grain; it just doesn't have much impact. On bermuda, go read the grain at the cup and make SURE you allow for it. Putts on bermuda will go hard down-grain as the lose speed unless there is a huge slope in the other direction.

Yea that was definitely odd he said that. Idk if he means in a perfect world or with the right amount of proper maintenance that you can make the effects of grain minimal with both grasses or what. Every good player I have played with checks the grain and factors that in and seeing the effects of grain is fairly easy on the courses I play.

 

The only time that grain becomes sort of irrelevant on bermuda greens is when they are running above Tour speeds, say 12 or so on the stimp. That is VERY unusual, to say the least, only found at a few high-end, VERY private courses that don't get a lot of rounds and have an unlimited budget. At the more "normal" speeds of 9 or 10, I have never seen a bermuda green where grain didn't need to be factored into the speed (and break) of a putt.

[RichieHunt]

That basics of grain is that it will NOT cause a right to left putt (or left-to-right putt) to break the opposite direction. It just doesn't happen.

 

What it can do is slow down or speed up the putt. So if you're going into the grain, the putt will be slower and you have to hit the ball harder and it will have less break than normal. Conversely, with the grain the putt will be faster and you have to hit the ball softer and there will be more break than normal.

 

However, there are some issues with all of this:

 

1. It's a bit rare to find a putt where you are either completely into the grain or completely with the grain. Usually it's a mixture of both.

 

2. Many of the green grasses these days...even on Bermuda...are so good that grain isn't even much of a factor. Championship Bermuda, TifEagle, Miniverde, etc...all excellent Bermuda grasses that the grain isn't a real problem. And having grown up on bentgrass greens, it's even better.

 

So in essence, I don't see any reason to try and account for grain. You're not likely to have a putt that is all into the grain or with the grain and it's nearly impossible to determine how the grain will affect the putt with any consistency. The greens grasses are so good these days that grain has far less of an impact. So personally, I never consider grain. I'm just trying to read the putt, make good contact with good speed. A putt doesn't have to be perfect to go in, so I'm just trying to increase the margin for error with a well struck putt at a pretty good speed while not missing on the low side.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[bluedot]

That basics of grain is that it will NOT cause a right to left putt (or left-to-right putt) to break the opposite direction. It just doesn't happen.

 

What it can do is slow down or speed up the putt. So if you're going into the grain, the putt will be slower and you have to hit the ball harder and it will have less break than normal. Conversely, with the grain the putt will be faster and you have to hit the ball softer and there will be more break than normal.

 

However, there are some issues with all of this:

 

1. It's a bit rare to find a putt where you are either completely into the grain or completely with the grain. Usually it's a mixture of both.

 

2. Many of the green grasses these days...even on Bermuda...are so good that grain isn't even much of a factor. Championship Bermuda, TifEagle, Miniverde, etc...all excellent Bermuda grasses that the grain isn't a real problem. And having grown up on bentgrass greens, it's even better.

 

So in essence, I don't see any reason to try and account for grain. You're not likely to have a putt that is all into the grain or with the grain and it's nearly impossible to determine how the grain will affect the putt with any consistency. The greens grasses are so good these days that grain has far less of an impact. So personally, I never consider grain. I'm just trying to read the putt, make good contact with good speed. A putt doesn't have to be perfect to go in, so I'm just trying to increase the margin for error with a well struck putt at a pretty good speed while not missing on the low side.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

Richie,

While I agree with you that a putt won't break to the grain and away from the slope, I'd offer two other thoughts on this:

 

1. On a straight, flat putt on bermuda greens, the ball WILL die to the direction the grain is running, if only slightly. This doesn't really happen on bent grass.

 

2. The grain on bermuda greens can and does "hold" a putt so that it breaks LESS than the slope indicates it should, OR make it break MORE than the slope indicates as it loses speed.

 

But for sure, the new bermuda hybrids are much less "grainy" than old bermuda greens were, and at very fast speeds the grain matters only a little. The great thing about these grasses is that from now to late next fall, greens can be just about as fast and the super wants them to be, with no real danger of heat stress.