2017 Phoenix area course conditions

[c. howard]

Cool thanks guys! I like your idea fore_life. Going to play las colinas this weekend instead.

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

Anyone up for a Saturday round?

 

I could probably play early Sat am. Have a friend in town that wants to play too. dM me on twitter.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

agree with Fore....the Duke is ok to put on the rotation, fun track, greens are usually good and decent mix of design layout

 

Indeed, Duke is a solid layout with some great holes and interesting green complexes. Only detractor is the real estate routing; however, the corridors are very wide and the housing is not intrusive at all. Don't stand down hole of Mark at this course.

 

Current conditioning is unknown, haven't played it in a while.

 

Should have yelled TWO

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Booked 1pm Verde River Saturday 04/22 $54 there are two spots open if anyone wants to join. Will be my first time playing VR since Lehman got his hands on it curious to see the changes a I logged a lot of rounds out there before.

[teejaywhy]

I'm IN for Saturday. One spot left. I will try not to talk too much about my recent trip to Bandon. :drinks:

[puttnforthe8]

I'm IN for Saturday. One spot left. I will try not to talk too much about my recent trip to Bandon. :drinks:

 

There in 2 weeks!!!!

[fore_life]

Aguila today, greens had been deep tinned but actually still rolled very good. Last round before ABQ next week!

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

I heard from a friend that eagle mountain is in poor shape. I'll try to confirm.

 

Mountain shadows last night:

 

Greens-slow but extremely interesting

Design-fantastic several templates such as: redan, Biarritz, & dell

Pace-great 2 hours for 18 holes (started at 5pm, easily done before sunset)

$40 including green fee, tax & optional $4 yardage book

Tee boxes-fair lots of divots

Bunkers-looked good, I was only in 1

 

I found the course interesting & challenging. Yes 18 straight par 3s is a lot, 12-13 would be perfect. Definitely worth playing here

[ALTSean]

I heard from a friend that eagle mountain is in poor shape. I'll try to confirm.

 

Mountain shadows last night:

 

Greens-slow but extremely interesting

Design-fantastic several templates such as: redan, Biarritz, & dell

Pace-great 2 hours for 18 holes (started at 5pm, easily done before sunset)

$40 including green fee, tax & optional $4 yardage book

Tee boxes-fair lots of divots

Bunkers-looked good, I was only in 1

 

I found the course interesting & challenging. Yes 18 straight par 3s is a lot, 12-13 would be perfect. Definitely worth playing here

 

Did you go to their restaurant at the course? I want to check out this course when I'm visiting family in Phoenix next month.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Verde River for the first time Post Lehman. I'm 50/50 on the changes. I mean it is not so bad that I dont want to go back but the course just isnt the same as it used to be and that is not even counting the development.

 

1: As others have said the large catch bunker well short of the green is just dumb and pointless. It is a 3 wood wedge hole to a somewhat tricky green depending on where the pin is. Setting yourself up on the right side of the fairway is the better play even though the tee box view looks like left is the better option.

2: No Change

3: No Change

4: I dont think they changed anything maybe took a bunker out on the layup but looks the same

5: Same

6: Same. I thought this was a green they should have softened up the contours of for typical mid to long iron approaches. I hit a decent 3 wood off the tee and a towering 6 iron from 178 that couldnt even hold the top tier of the green.

7: Decent job clearing up the layup zone and eliminating the pot bunker about 120 out from the green.

8: Good job turfing long of the green and eliminating the right side bunkering to make it more enticing to drive the green.

9: removed the bunker on the left off the tee that was not really in play. No structural changes just cleaned up the edges of the hole and desert right

10: same

11: same

12: Cleaned up the layup zone similar to 6 removing bunkers short left and all down the right side. Of all the changes I like this one the best

13: Same

14: New green I like better overall the hole plays pretty much the same but the right side has been tweaked and cleaned up some.

15: A Little visual deception off the tee. It looks like they turfed in the wash but it is still there. not a ton of changes other than clearing out the vegitation on the left to give a more open look at the option to carry the wash.

16: no real changes here Still a tough 5 never was a huge fan of this hole.

17: Hate the fact that this is no longer the closing hole. I like the elimination of the bunkers on the left of the green.

18: Hit my best drive of the day on this hole. My reward playing out of the wash. Not a huge fan just a boring closing hole now compared to 17. 3 wood wedge or 9 iron just blah.

 

I do like the new bunker sand as the old bunker sand was that terrible river sand that was thick and rocky

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

I heard from a friend that eagle mountain is in poor shape. I'll try to confirm.

 

Mountain shadows last night:

 

Greens-slow but extremely interesting

Design-fantastic several templates such as: redan, Biarritz, & dell

Pace-great 2 hours for 18 holes (started at 5pm, easily done before sunset)

$40 including green fee, tax & optional $4 yardage book

Tee boxes-fair lots of divots

Bunkers-looked good, I was only in 1

 

I found the course interesting & challenging. Yes 18 straight par 3s is a lot, 12-13 would be perfect. Definitely worth playing here

 

Did you go to their restaurant at the course? I want to check out this course when I'm visiting family in Phoenix next month.

 

No I didn't eat there. I would check yelp. Rustys at the course looks nice but simple. I'm sure the hotel has a a restaurant(s). It has a cool vibe. El chorro across the street has a fantastic patio & happy hour (probably be too hot to sit outside tho)

[teejaywhy]

Verde River for the first time Post Lehman. I'm 50/50 on the changes. I mean it is not so bad that I dont want to go back but the course just isnt the same as it used to be and that is not even counting the development.

 

1: As others have said the large catch bunker well short of the green is just dumb and pointless. It is a 3 wood wedge hole to a somewhat tricky green depending on where the pin is. Setting yourself up on the right side of the fairway is the better play even though the tee box view looks like left is the better option.

2: No Change

3: No Change

4: I dont think they changed anything maybe took a bunker out on the layup but looks the same

5: Same

6: Same. I thought this was a green they should have softened up the contours of for typical mid to long iron approaches. I hit a decent 3 wood off the tee and a towering 6 iron from 178 that couldnt even hold the top tier of the green.

7: Decent job clearing up the layup zone and eliminating the pot bunker about 120 out from the green.

8: Good job turfing long of the green and eliminating the right side bunkering to make it more enticing to drive the green.

9: removed the bunker on the left off the tee that was not really in play. No structural changes just cleaned up the edges of the hole and desert right

10: same

11: same

12: Cleaned up the layup zone similar to 6 removing bunkers short left and all down the right side. Of all the changes I like this one the best

13: Same

14: New green I like better overall the hole plays pretty much the same but the right side has been tweaked and cleaned up some.

15: A Little visual deception off the tee. It looks like they turfed in the wash but it is still there. not a ton of changes other than clearing out the vegitation on the left to give a more open look at the option to carry the wash.

16: no real changes here Still a tough 5 never was a huge fan of this hole.

17: Hate the fact that this is no longer the closing hole. I like the elimination of the bunkers on the left of the green.

18: Hit my best drive of the day on this hole. My reward playing out of the wash. Not a huge fan just a boring closing hole now compared to 17. 3 wood wedge or 9 iron just blah.

 

I do like the new bunker sand as the old bunker sand was that terrible river sand that was thick and rocky

 

 

Played the new Verde River with Matt yesterday. I had only played the previous course 3 times, and not any more recently than about 3 years ago. So for me, the new development was the most striking, and disorienting because the holes, even the ones without change, look so different with the native pulled back and the sight lines changed to the backdrop of homes being constructed.

 

Essentially, three completely new holes (1, 14 and 18) and one hole with a new green (8). The rest of the course has a lot of bunker elimination and softening, mostly for the better. The Kavanaugh style, with steep capes and deep bays, were very fierce and too be avoided, the modified ones are a little less severe but maintain strategic interest. Many of the erased bunkers were mostly redundant, and the ones behind #17 (previously #18) I'm good with because I hate splashed up bunkers behind greens - very penal, especially in this case where you would face a downhill bunker shot to a green falling away to the water hazard. And I guess Weiskopf doesn't like centerline hazards, because most of those have been eradicated.

 

#1 - I don't mind the large bunker. It is a very short hole so it provides mostly visual intimidation for what should be an easy wedge shot to an elevated green.

 

#8 - The new green and bunker configuration makes it more attractive to attempt driving the green. And naturally, that's where we encountered the first back-up of the day.

 

Most all of the holes have the native pulled back and a recontour/re-veg taking place. It's dirt now but I imagine they will be spreading granite in these areas. Will make for more findable balls for those who stray from the turf.

 

As far as the real-estate development, we knew it would come. I do think some of the sites are going to seem intrusive, encroaching on the tee areas mostly. And the sight lines are changing obviously, as we knew they would.

 

All in all, the changes weren't bad. I think I need a few more plays to take it in.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Forgot to write my conclusion about Verde River.

 

All in all the changes are fine. Nothing that totally ruined the course. As most of us who've been playing out there for a long time have already known the homes were going to eventually go in and take away from the scenic values. Still a challenge to play from any tees. Greens still complex and subtle plus a huge pita to read unless you're playing out there on the regular.

 

If you've never played it still worth it. If you used to play it a lot you should make a trip before it goes private.

 

The number 1 thing i love is they've maintained firm and fast fairways which is surprisingly rare in the desert here.

[jewofgolf]

Forgot to write my conclusion about Verde River.

 

All in all the changes are fine. Nothing that totally ruined the course. As most of us who've been playing out there for a long time have already known the homes were going to eventually go in and take away from the scenic values. Still a challenge to play from any tees. Greens still complex and subtle plus a huge pita to read unless you're playing out there on the regular.

 

If you've never played it still worth it. If you used to play it a lot you should make a trip before it goes private.

 

The number 1 thing i love is they've maintained firm and fast fairways which is surprisingly rare in the desert here.

 

It sounds like they changed many of the things I always liked about the experience. That's a shame. I'll probably still head out there before it goes private just to see for myself.

[teejaywhy]

Forgot to write my conclusion about Verde River.

 

All in all the changes are fine. Nothing that totally ruined the course. As most of us who've been playing out there for a long time have already known the homes were going to eventually go in and take away from the scenic values. Still a challenge to play from any tees. Greens still complex and subtle plus a huge pita to read unless you're playing out there on the regular.

 

If you've never played it still worth it. If you used to play it a lot you should make a trip before it goes private.

 

The number 1 thing i love is they've maintained firm and fast fairways which is surprisingly rare in the desert here.

 

It sounds like they changed many of the things I always liked about the experience. That's a shame.

 

What are you talking about?

[DrSchteeve]

My problem with Verde River's changes is that of the things they did to the course itself it is hard to see any of them as improvements. I've seen that before at other places, but it is just weird to me that people who get paid to design golf courses find ways to make them worse, not better. #1 is the best example to me: no, it isn't a terrible hole by itself. But it doesn't belong there - they moved massive amounts of earth and created a huge bunker, both or which are completely out of character with the rest of the course. #18: the good news, they didn't do much to create it. The bad news: what a crappy boring hole to be your finishing hole.

 

All that said, it's still a great course, and though the housing takes a way somewhat, they actually did a pretty good job of keeping the playing corridors unencumbered. And in the mid-tier range of courses (e.g., less than $150 peak season) it is still one of the best options out there. As good or better than, say, Verrado, Estrella, Legend Trail, Legacy, etc.

[jewofgolf]

Forgot to write my conclusion about Verde River.

 

All in all the changes are fine. Nothing that totally ruined the course. As most of us who've been playing out there for a long time have already known the homes were going to eventually go in and take away from the scenic values. Still a challenge to play from any tees. Greens still complex and subtle plus a huge pita to read unless you're playing out there on the regular.

 

If you've never played it still worth it. If you used to play it a lot you should make a trip before it goes private.

 

The number 1 thing i love is they've maintained firm and fast fairways which is surprisingly rare in the desert here.

 

It sounds like they changed many of the things I always liked about the experience. That's a shame.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Old #9 was a great hole. Taking away the bunkers on 18. Softening the green on old 7. Taking away more bunkers. I just always enjoyed the tricky greens and greenside areas and a great finish. All of those mentioned items and now building houses - it all really reduces the value of playing there.

 

Again, having not seen it myself it's hard to judge.

[teejaywhy]

Forgot to write my conclusion about Verde River.

 

All in all the changes are fine. Nothing that totally ruined the course. As most of us who've been playing out there for a long time have already known the homes were going to eventually go in and take away from the scenic values. Still a challenge to play from any tees. Greens still complex and subtle plus a huge pita to read unless you're playing out there on the regular.

 

If you've never played it still worth it. If you used to play it a lot you should make a trip before it goes private.

 

The number 1 thing i love is they've maintained firm and fast fairways which is surprisingly rare in the desert here.

 

It sounds like they changed many of the things I always liked about the experience. That's a shame.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Old #9 was a great hole. Taking away the bunkers on 18. Softening the green on old 7. Taking away more bunkers. I just always enjoyed the tricky greens and greenside areas and a great finish. All of those mentioned items and now building houses - it all really reduces the value of playing there.

 

Again, having not seen it myself it's hard to judge.

 

 

The real estate was coming from day 1. It was a matter of bad timing for the developers that we were lucky to get to play it for a few years before the construction started. And fact is, the development was always targeted to be a 55+ retirement community and I always thought the original course was a bit of a stern test for those who would eventually be supporting the most.

 

The new holes mainly predicated by the re-location of the clubhouse site and I can understand the idea to put it on the high point of the property.

 

Removed bunkers were mostly superfluous., except for the centerline hazards. And I thought you didn't like centerline bunkers, at least that's what I took from your review of Saguaro.

 

When I say the bunkers were softened, I don't mean made easy, a little less penal perhaps but still strategic.

 

Except for the 4 new greens, the remaining Kavanaugh greens remain interesting and perplexing as ever.

[ferrispgm]

Verde River for the first time Post Lehman. I'm 50/50 on the changes. I mean it is not so bad that I dont want to go back but the course just isnt the same as it used to be and that is not even counting the development.

 

1: As others have said the large catch bunker well short of the green is just dumb and pointless. It is a 3 wood wedge hole to a somewhat tricky green depending on where the pin is. Setting yourself up on the right side of the fairway is the better play even though the tee box view looks like left is the better option.

2: No Change

3: No Change

4: I dont think they changed anything maybe took a bunker out on the layup but looks the same

5: Same

6: Same. I thought this was a green they should have softened up the contours of for typical mid to long iron approaches. I hit a decent 3 wood off the tee and a towering 6 iron from 178 that couldnt even hold the top tier of the green.

7: Decent job clearing up the layup zone and eliminating the pot bunker about 120 out from the green.

8: Good job turfing long of the green and eliminating the right side bunkering to make it more enticing to drive the green.

9: removed the bunker on the left off the tee that was not really in play. No structural changes just cleaned up the edges of the hole and desert right

10: same

11: same

12: Cleaned up the layup zone similar to 6 removing bunkers short left and all down the right side. Of all the changes I like this one the best

13: Same

14: New green I like better overall the hole plays pretty much the same but the right side has been tweaked and cleaned up some.

15: A Little visual deception off the tee. It looks like they turfed in the wash but it is still there. not a ton of changes other than clearing out the vegitation on the left to give a more open look at the option to carry the wash.

16: no real changes here Still a tough 5 never was a huge fan of this hole.

17: Hate the fact that this is no longer the closing hole. I like the elimination of the bunkers on the left of the green.

18: Hit my best drive of the day on this hole. My reward playing out of the wash. Not a huge fan just a boring closing hole now compared to 17. 3 wood wedge or 9 iron just blah.

 

I do like the new bunker sand as the old bunker sand was that terrible river sand that was thick and rocky

 

 

Played the new Verde River with Matt yesterday. I had only played the previous course 3 times, and not any more recently than about 3 years ago. So for me, the new development was the most striking, and disorienting because the holes, even the ones without change, look so different with the native pulled back and the site lines changed to the backdrop of homes being constructed.

 

Essentially, three completely new holes (1, 14 and 18) and one hole with a new green (8). The rest of the course has a lot of bunker elimination and softening, mostly for the better. The Kavanaugh style, with steep capes and deep bays, were very fierce and too be avoided, the modified ones are a little less severe but maintain strategic interest. Many of the erased bunkers were mostly redundant, and the ones behind #17 (previously #18) I'm good with because I hate splashed up bunkers behind greens - very penal, especially in this case where you would face a downhill bunker shot to a green falling away to the water hazard. And I guess Weiskopf doesn't like centerline hazards, because most of those have been eradicated.

 

#1 - I don't mind the large bunker. It is a very short hole so it provides mostly visual intimidation for what should be an easy wedge shot to an elevated green.

 

#8 - The new green and bunker configuration makes it more attractive to attempt driving the green. And naturally, that's where we encountered the first back-up of the day.

 

Most all of the holes have the native pulled back and a recontour/re-veg taking place. It's dirt now but I imagine they will be spreading granite in these areas. Will make for more findable balls for those who stray from the turf.

 

As far as the real-estate development, we knew it would come. I do think some of the sites are going to seem intrusive, encroaching on the tee areas mostly. And the sight lines are changing obviously, as we knew they would.

 

All in all, the changes weren't bad. I think I need a few more plays to take it in.

 

 

As is normally the case with your golf course comments, I 99% agree with you. Still a fun course and one of the semi-hidden gems out here....But the new #1 is just stupid and I hate that the old 10 is now the new 18...The original 18th hole I think was one of the best finishing holes out here in my opinion. Required a decent drive and the location of the ball in the fairway really set up how difficult your approach would be with a wedge/9 iron. The only thing I will say is that I liked the bunkers but it's not a big deal they are gone.

 

I definitely want to get back out there again a few times before it goes private.

 

How was the practice area? It wasn't totally completed when I was there last.

[jewofgolf]

Forgot to write my conclusion about Verde River.

 

All in all the changes are fine. Nothing that totally ruined the course. As most of us who've been playing out there for a long time have already known the homes were going to eventually go in and take away from the scenic values. Still a challenge to play from any tees. Greens still complex and subtle plus a huge pita to read unless you're playing out there on the regular.

 

If you've never played it still worth it. If you used to play it a lot you should make a trip before it goes private.

 

The number 1 thing i love is they've maintained firm and fast fairways which is surprisingly rare in the desert here.

 

It sounds like they changed many of the things I always liked about the experience. That's a shame.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Old #9 was a great hole. Taking away the bunkers on 18. Softening the green on old 7. Taking away more bunkers. I just always enjoyed the tricky greens and greenside areas and a great finish. All of those mentioned items and now building houses - it all really reduces the value of playing there.

 

Again, having not seen it myself it's hard to judge.

 

 

The real estate was coming from day 1. It was a matter of bad timing for the developers that we were lucky to get to play it for a few years before the construction started. And fact is, the development was always targeted to be a 55+ retirement community and I always thought the original course was a bit of a stern test for those who would eventually be supporting the most.

 

The new holes mainly predicated by the re-location of the clubhouse site and I can understand the idea to put it on the high point of the property.

 

Removed bunkers were mostly superfluous., except for the centerline hazards. And I thought you didn't like centerline bunkers, at least that's what I took from your review of Saguaro.

 

When I say the bunkers were softened, I don't mean made easy, a little less penal perhaps but still strategic.

 

Except for the 4 new greens, the remaining Kavanaugh greens remain interesting and perplexing as ever.

 

Regarding centerline bunkers, I've really thought that over and I realize now that they are in fact a great design element. I used to feel like a long straight drive should always be rewarded...not necessarily the case!

[puttnforthe8]

Ambiente: Fairways and greens were outstanding. Bunkers were very poor...they seem to be getting lazy about keeping them raked and allowing them to get packed. The main complaint by many was that whoever is cutting the cups is a monumental idiot...they were cut poorly, torn up, uneven.

 

Eagle Mountain: excellent in every respect

 

Bear Creek: Looks like they had left the same cup/hole for weeks as the area was destroyed while the rest of the green was very good. Fairways were ok.

[QMany]

I'm heading out to Scottsdale in three weeks for a good friend's bachelor party. I was hoping to get down to Southern Dunes, but we're playing We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Talking Stick O'odham.

[puttnforthe8]

I'm heading out to Scottsdale in three weeks for a good friend's bachelor party. I was hoping to get down to Southern Dunes, but we're playing We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Talking Stick O'odham.

 

TS over SD??? You must be a Cornhusker to make that kind of choice. :tongue: ;)

[QMany]

I'm heading out to Scottsdale in three weeks for a good friend's bachelor party. I was hoping to get down to Southern Dunes, but we're playing We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Talking Stick O'odham.

TS over SD??? You must be a Cornhusker to make that kind of choice. :tongue: ;)

I did not make that choice, I had to defer to the bachelor.

[Chomper]

Palm Valley on Saturday.

 

Nice layout - some weird holes, local knowledge goes a long way there. Good conditions, greens were slow but fair. Not too much unexpected movement in them.

 

I had not played it before, but it was certainly enjoyable. I can see how some short hitters would not like it - there are some serious forced carries.

[cbbaron]

Ambiente: Fairways and greens were outstanding. Bunkers were very poor...they seem to be getting lazy about keeping them raked and allowing them to get packed. The main complaint by many was that whoever is cutting the cups is a monumental idiot...they were cut poorly, torn up, uneven.

 

Eagle Mountain: excellent in every respect

 

Bear Creek: Looks like they had left the same cup/hole for weeks as the area was destroyed while the rest of the green was very good. Fairways were ok.

I played Eagle Mountain a couple weeks ago got scared when practice was in rough shape but then got on the course and was very happy with conditions

[AzSuperHack76]

Southern Dunes was just about pure this weekend. It's been a while since I have played there, almost a year to be exact, but I don't remember everything being so tight/close cut around the greens. I'm not very comfortable with the putter off the greens in the first cut. Everything was so closely mowed I had no problem 6-10 feet off the green using the putter.

 

Only note would be that some of the bunkers are either too compact or a little too thin, just noticed a couple inconsistencies in the few I was in.

 

Greens were superb.

 

Lots of run out in the fairways, only used the driver once, 3 wood the rest of the time, had good results secondary to the conditions allowing for a good amount of roll.

 

If I lived out there I would play SD so much more. I just need to suck it up and make the drive every couple of months!

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Southern Dunes was just about pure this weekend. It's been a while since I have played there, almost a year to be exact, but I don't remember everything being so tight/close cut around the greens. I'm not very comfortable with the putter off the greens in the first cut. Everything was so closely mowed I had no problem 6-10 feet off the green using the putter.

 

Only note would be that some of the bunkers are either too compact or a little too thin, just noticed a couple inconsistencies in the few I was in.

 

Greens were superb.

 

Lots of run out in the fairways, only used the driver once, 3 wood the rest of the time, had good results secondary to the conditions allowing for a good amount of roll.

 

If I lived out there I would play SD so much more. I just need to suck it up and make the drive every couple of months!

 

 

This is good news, Before Troon took over the green surrounds were very low cut and rolling around 9 vs the green speed of 11. A lot more options from just off the greens vs the troonified wet collars that were grown out a bit. IMO firm fast links style golf is how that course should be set up.

[AzSuperHack76]

I think they are setting it up like that for the US Open qualifier if I had to guess. I think it's the first week of May.

[Salazar]

Southern Dunes was just about pure this weekend. It's been a while since I have played there, almost a year to be exact, but I don't remember everything being so tight/close cut around the greens. I'm not very comfortable with the putter off the greens in the first cut. Everything was so closely mowed I had no problem 6-10 feet off the green using the putter.

 

Only note would be that some of the bunkers are either too compact or a little too thin, just noticed a couple inconsistencies in the few I was in.

 

Greens were superb.

 

Lots of run out in the fairways, only used the driver once, 3 wood the rest of the time, had good results secondary to the conditions allowing for a good amount of roll.

 

If I lived out there I would play SD so much more. I just need to suck it up and make the drive every couple of months!

 

Agree completely. Played Sunday and after blading a chip shot from a few feet off, I stuck with the putter the rest of the round if I was anywhere close to the green, even once from 12 feet off.

 

The bunkers I was in were actually really good IMO. Although I'm pretty content with anything that isn't concrete.

 

I did end up with one mud ball in the middle of the round which I thought was strange. But it was after a pretty high tee shot and there was plenty of roll out the rest of the day. Such a fun course!