Shoulder turn + (left knee bend + right leg straighten) = Backswing

[Ghost of Snead]

I still don't see why he says Jason days p6 is suboptimal, lol. You know how he hits it so high?

 

Because he is not an instructor and has no clue. There is no optimal P6; parts have to match.

[Ghost of Snead]

I still don't see why he says Jason days p6 is suboptimal, lol. You know how he hits it so high?

 

His hands are behind the turn and his shaft is high off the ground indicating a steeper than optimal approach. Both features are more often associated with amateurs. See the MORAD P6 thread. maybe this was just a bad swing ?

 

Define optimal approach and what is steeper ? His shaft plane or AOA ? Bad swing - maybe not.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Optimal approach is a shallow AoA that requires less hand manipulation in the impact zone and is more repeatable.

[Ghost of Snead]

Optimal approach is a shallow AoA that requires less hand manipulation in the impact zone and is more repeatable.

 

Like Sergio ?

[jut111]

Do you even know what AOA is?

Optimal approach is a shallow AoA that requires less hand manipulation in the impact zone and is more repeatable.

 

and you can tell j day doesn't meet your description how?

[SunkTheBirdie]

I don't care about Jason Day. It's off topic. If you want to talk about Jason Day start a thread and I'll talk About his swing.

[SunkTheBirdie]

From another thread ....

I like the enthusiasm STB, but simplifying aspects of anatomy to base a theory is fine for anecdotes, not for anything accurate. Your descriptions basically missed thoracic rotation and less importantly several scap muscles.

 

I like your idea, right hip high, left shoulder low, but I wouldn't say you've given any evidence to why there is a relationship.

 

I think more-or-less we want to swing the club on something resembling a plane. With the body we are given, it contorts to achieve this. Right hip may be high or level with left, but it should be rotated to aid vertebrae (mostly thoracic), scapulae and humerus create sufficient and safe range of motion of left arm and club on a 'plane'. The fact the clubhead CoM is not inline with the shaft axis and the body is irregularly shaped for the task, it distorts the 'plane' we try to achieve.

 

Monte and others answered the OP question. To add to this, if you are still "lifting" or "shrugging" shoulder to make a backswing, you may have some movement deficiencies.

 

Thoracic rotation occurs when you turn the shoulders to start.

 

I like the term thoracic better than shoulder. Upper body coil might be more digestible.

 

Can you try my feel drill ? (Outlined in the OP).

It delays the lower body pivot to the end of the swing. See what you feel. Did performing the lower body pivot change your shoulder plane ?

[Ghost of Snead]

I don't care about Jason Day. It's off topic. If you want to talk about Jason Day start a thread and I'll talk About his swing.

 

If you don't want real-life examples like Jason Day or countless other pros, perhaps you can draw some stick figures or make some out of Playdoh and take pictures.

 

Or you could upload your own swing performing the drill with all of the necessary lines drawn to convince us you're right.

[jut111]

It was said earlier in the thread and ignored but I'll remind you. Your spine is not rigid. I'm glad someone taught you about thoracic rotation, now work on thoracic bend/tilt.

[jut111]

Sunk, why did you delete the video of the drill you posted last night? I wanted to view that later for "reference" purposes.

[TB07]

I was say it can contribute. If good swings have the upper body moving BEFORE the lower body in the BS then how can the hips dictate what the shoulders do?

If you are turning the shoulders first and the hips haven't moved ... I'd say that is a flat start to a shoulder turn.

 

If the right hip eventually gets deep you can make up for the flat start.

 

For a given spinal angle at address, the only way to get your shoulders turning more vertical than what was dictated at address, you need to get your right hip as deep as possible. Any other manipulation like left shoulder down just creates shoulder motion that is not perpendicular to the spine.

 

And you would be wrong. Good swings measures have the upper body starting before the hips. Upper is also side bending. So if good players have hips moving last you are advocating something good players don't do. Might work well as a thought but it's not actually happening.

[TB07]

I have a deep hip turn but my hips tend to turn too flat even though my shoulders are steeper. If hips dictate the shoulders than I should have a flat shoulder turn.

 

What happens to your left knee ?

Does it have more rotation than it should ? Or is it mostly flexing in the BS ?

 

Flexing toward the target/ball line.

[Apollo 13]

It sounds like Mike Austin's swing theory... am I close?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpU2D-yrT8

[SunkTheBirdie]

TB07 you bring up great points. I haven't thought about the timing of shoulder rotation vs hip turning. But for the purposes of this concept I don't think it matters. The key idea is the final depth of the right hip determines how steep the shoulders can turn.

 

I think the key to the shoulder turn is preventing the right shoulder going to deep in the BS.

 

Do people agree that left side bend comes from left knee bending right hip back hips rotating as you do that ?

[SunkTheBirdie]

I think the key to the shoulder turn is preventing the right shoulder going to deep in the BS.

And that is mostly controlled with the left knee bend and right hip height ? Hmmmm. Interesting.

 

If you take the two components of a "deep right hip" - right hip depth and right hip height. Right hip depth makes the shoulder plane flatter ! and right hip height makes it steeper. flatter(EDIT)

 

If you do my drill, and play around with the left knee bend vs deep right hip ... it seems the left knee bend is what prevents the right shoulder from going too deep. :).

 

How do you get your right hip higher in the BS ? You straighten the right leg :)

 

This is just awesome.

I'm not going to use the term deep right hip anymore. I'm going to deep and high right hip.

Didn't a wise man once say that in the backswing you get the right hip as far as you can from the ball ? yes, yes he did.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Of course right hip depth is very key to the Downswing shoulder plane.

 

Link for later

https://www.physioadvisor.com.au/health/anatomy/bones/thoracic-vertebrae/

[Ghost of Snead]

I think the key to the shoulder turn is preventing the right shoulder going to deep in the BS.

And that is mostly controlled with the left knee bend and right hip height ? Hmmmm. Interesting.

 

If you take the two components of a "deep right hip" - right hip depth and right hip height. Right hip depth makes the shoulder plane flatter ! and right hip height makes it flatter.

 

If you do my drill, and play around with the left knee bend vs deep right hip ... it seems the left knee bend is what prevents the right shoulder from going too deep. :).

 

How do you get your right hip higher in the BS ? You straighten the right leg :)

 

This is just awesome.

I'm not going to use the term deep right hip anymore. I'm going to deep and high right hip.

Didn't a wise man once say that in the backswing you get the right hip as far as you can from the ball ? yes, yes he did.

 

Awesome that you agree with yourself and can pat yourself on the back even though others don't agree with you.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

[bph7]

Sunk, why did you delete the video of the drill you posted last night? I wanted to view that later for "reference" purposes.

 

He's edited multiple posts in this thread to misrepresent the debate in his favor.

[Ghost of Snead]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

 

This is true, but some are just blind and can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Sunk, why did you delete the video of the drill you posted last night? I wanted to view that later for "reference" purposes.

 

He's edited multiple posts in this thread to misrepresent the debate in his favor.

 

He's also been known to edit other people's quotes which I'm sure he knows is against the TOS.

[TB07]

TB07 you bring up great points. I haven't thought about the timing of shoulder rotation vs hip turning. But for the purposes of this concept I don't think it matters. The key idea is the final depth of the right hip determines how steep the shoulders can turn.

 

I think the key to the shoulder turn is preventing the right shoulder going to deep in the BS.

 

Do people agree that left side bend comes from left knee bending right hip back hips rotating as you do that ?

 

Well it does matter. Why can't the hips turn deep and the shoulders be too flat? They are separate movements that have to be coordinated. I agree that it will help influence one another but not always. It's not always the case that one makes the other move correctly. You said the hips definitively move the shoulders going back and that's just simply not true. If you modify that and say the hips influence the shoulders than I'd agree, but it's also not just hip depth it's the angle as well.

[iteachgolf]

I still don't see why he says Jason days p6 is suboptimal, lol. You know how he hits it so high?

 

His hands are behind the turn and his shaft is high off the ground indicating a steeper than optimal approach. Both features are more often associated with amateurs. See the MORAD P6 thread. maybe this was just a bad swing ?

 

Those things make an individual shallower not steeper. Hands lower and more forward increase steepness. You're in over your head here

[iteachgolf]

Overwhelming majority don't get the right shoulder deep enough in the backswing. Extremely rare too see someone with a right shoulder that is too deep

[Millbrook]

I think I'm following this. The question I have is that the right leg straightening and the deep right hip are surely linked. The deeper the hip moves the more it travels away from the foot the more the leg straightens. It does not follow that in order to have a deep right hip you straighten the right leg.

 

In the context of differentiating the upper body coil from the pivot it's interesting.

 

Any thoughts about the downswing. I think I was reversing the process and going into transition by straightening the left leg which caused a steepening and EE.

 

Once I thought about the hips returning to level as a step in the downswing I think I'm getting a better hip turn to impact and no EE.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Overwhelming majority don't get the right shoulder deep enough in the backswing. Extremely rare too see someone with a right shoulder that is too deep

 

Are we using different definitions of deep ?

 

Deep to me is ... distance from the ball target line (along the ground).

[iteachgolf]

Overwhelming majority don't get the right shoulder deep enough in the backswing. Extremely rare too see someone with a right shoulder that is too deep

 

Are we using different definitions of deep ?

 

Deep to me is ... distance from the ball target line (along the ground).

 

There isn't another definition of deep. Most never get right shoulder deep enough. And it's not even close.

[starsail85]

Overwhelming majority don't get the right shoulder deep enough in the backswing. Extremely rare too see someone with a right shoulder that is too deep

 

Are we using different definitions of deep ?

 

Deep to me is ... distance from the ball target line (along the ground).

 

There isn't another definition of deep. Most never get right shoulder deep enough. And it's not even close.

 

Is there a good test to see how deep r shoulder is, or a reference point?

 

 

[iteachgolf]

Overwhelming majority don't get the right shoulder deep enough in the backswing. Extremely rare too see someone with a right shoulder that is too deep

 

Are we using different definitions of deep ?

 

Deep to me is ... distance from the ball target line (along the ground).

 

There isn't another definition of deep. Most never get right shoulder deep enough. And it's not even close.

 

Is there a good test to see how deep r shoulder is, or a reference point?

 

Right shoulder in relation to right foot from DTL.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Sunk, why did you delete the video of the drill you posted last night? I wanted to view that later for "reference" purposes.

 

He's edited multiple posts in this thread to misrepresent the debate in his favor.

 

I have not.

I'm happy to be wrong.

 

What video ? What drill ?

I did make a post about a YouTube link but it was actually video of large breasted women. It wasn't a swing video. If you didn't see it that's the issue. A moderator deleted the entire post likely after Ghost of Snead reported it.

[Ghost of Snead]

Sunk, why did you delete the video of the drill you posted last night? I wanted to view that later for "reference" purposes.

 

He's edited multiple posts in this thread to misrepresent the debate in his favor.

 

I have not.

I'm happy to be wrong.

 

What video ? What drill ?

I did make a post about a YouTube link but it was actually video of large breasted women. It wasn't a swing video. If you didn't see it that's the issue. A moderator deleted the entire post likely after Ghost of Snead reported it.

 

Didn't have to report it .... the mods are sharp enough to see what's going on. So watch you accuse ..