Verrado vs. Ambiente

[DrSchteeve]

Not on crack (never tried it, but probably would like it too much), but given the discussion in another thread comparing these 2 courses, thought I would take a crack (pun intended) at a comparison. Something I have done, never heard of anyone else doing it, so the methodology is very open to question, is to go hole-by-hole and pick the best hole. Perhaps a better comparison would be just comparing par 3's to 3's, 4's to 4's, etc. but that's more thinking. So just for fun..... and subject to edit, because my hole-by-hole memory is a little flawed, especially on the back 9's....

 

1. Verrado – about as boring a hole as you can imagine – not necessarily a bad thing, as a first hole, but other than a fairway bunker left there is nothing to think about. Ambiente – bunker right in driver play, bunkers left if you hook, from the very first hole, you have to think, along with a really good green complex. Ambiente, not close.

2. Verrado – great hole that makes you choose both your tee shot and shot into the green, both aggeressive and conservative options. 2.Ambiente – a good short par 3, bunkers left and right. Verrado.

3. Verrado – downhill par 3, rather boring, plenty of bailouts, not as good as #2 on Ambiente. Ambiente – open par 5 with a chance for the green in 2, even for short hitters if they play the right tee box, green complex decently guarded but allows a runup shot if you choose. Ambiente.

4. Verrado – tough par 4, long shots needed with fairway bunkering and a good open green complex that allows bump and runs. Ambiente – short par 4 tempts you off the tee, but excellent bunkering both off the tee and around the green. Verrado.

5. Verrado – boring par 5. Period. Ambiente – another short par 4, this one driveable but guarded by water all along the right and traps near the green. Ambiente, not even close.

6.Verrado – decent medium iron par 3. Ambiente – long par 4, nice bunkering well short of the green produces visual intimidation but the green complex is open for bump and run shots. Ambiente.

7. Verrado – interesting par 5, plenty of bunkering, options to go for the green or not. Ambiente – long par 5, 3 shot hole for all but the longest hitters, right guarded by waste area all along the right, green well protected even for shorter 3^rd shots. Push, but Ambiente if you had to choose.

8. Verrado – long par 4, blind first shot, good hole. Ambiente – long par 3, great hole. Push, nod to Ambiente (even though the Verrado hole is memorable, it is a blind first shot and basically just 2 long shots to a green complex that isn’t that interesting). The Ambiente par 3 is a nice long par 3, and helps emphasize that Ambiente has good variation in the par 3's. But still a push.

9. Verrado – medium par 4, a little thought off the tee and into the green. Ambiente – medium par 4, nice bunkering in fairways protecting left and right, great green complex requires precision. Ambiente, not close.

 

Score on the front: Ambiente 5, Verrado 2, Push 2.

 

10. Verrado – par 5, similar to #7. Ambiente - driveable par 4, well set up to encourage going for the green, great green complex that requires shot below the hole. Ambiente, not close.

11. Verrado medium par 4 but plenty of trouble options. Ambiente – medium par 3 to Biarritz green. Push, but nod to Ambiente, who doesn't love a Biarritz green?

12 . Verrado – long par 4, up hill, just a great hole, nice bunker in the middle of the fairway for visual intimidation, with a nice green complex that values being below the hole. Ambiente – long par 4, great green complex that requires precision even with a long iron shot. Verrado, not close, this is a great hole.

13. Verrado – short par 4, up hill, funky green, very memorable hole, but not necessarily a great hole. The green has a false front and two tiers. Ambiente – short par 4, but not driveable, nice green complex. Push, nod to Verrado for memorability, even though the green complex is questionable.

14. Verrado – par 3, downhill, nice views, good hole requires precise shot -similar to #3 but shorter and needs a better shot. Ambiente – par 5, 3 shot hole, feels a bit "cramped" as Brian notes. Verrado.

15. Verrado - par 5, 3 shot hole. Ambiente – fantastic par 3 with a 2 tier green that makes the shot interesting wherever the pin is located, with water long. Ambiente, not close.

16. Verrado - par 4, decent longish hole, not especially memorable or "interesting". Ambiente - par 5 pretty similar to 14, very good green complex. Push.

17. Verrado – short par 3, boring, nothing there. Ambiente – medium par 4, good green complex and bunkering near the green. Ambiente – there’s just nothing in the Verrado hole, could call push but the Verrado hole doesn't deserve even that.

18. Verrado – great long par 4 guarded by water at the green. Ambiente – medium par 4, good birdie hole. Verrado, not close.

 

Score on the back: Ambiente 3, Verrado 3, Push 3.

 

Sum it up: 8 Ambiente, 5 Verrado, 5 pushes.

 

Just looking at par 3's: Verrado has a very boring collection of 2 downhill par 3 of similar length (#3 and #14, though #14 is shorter and requires a precise shot ), another basic unmemorable par 3 of similar length (#6), and one short that is very boring (#17, although there is water that shouldn't be in play). Ambiente has a short well bunkered par 3 (#2), a long hole (#8), a Biarritz (#11), and a medium to longish hole to a 2 tiered green (#15). Comparing the par 3's, it's not close. Ambiente.

 

Flail away boys…

[puttnforthe8]

Nice job DS.

 

#3 Verrado wins, the par 5 at Ambiente is ok

#5 is more of a push...the par 5 is much better than it looks. unless you hit the ball 215 off the tee like you do! :P

#6 is more of a push to me; it is a heck of a par 3...just not good looking...put it in "better surroundings" it would be awesome

#11 just because it is a B-green does not make it better....push to me; plus visual is better at Verrado

#15 Verrado par 5 is better; that par 3 is dumb -water and bunker left are just dumb and if the pin is in the lower green, then it is a boring shot (yes, you can play a gimmick shot to the top and hope it rolls down...but in reality, it is just a lower green.

#17 think the par 3 with with water right and a underrated green with tough locations possible is better

 

 

To reiterate: Verrado is much more "interesting"; Ambiente does have more holes that are better. Verrado has more holes that are significantly better. And imo, Verrado is way more of a challenge than Ambiente - recent tournament I saw double digit HCs breaking 80 at a inordinate clip.

[DrSchteeve]

Nice job DS.

 

#3 Verrado wins, the par 5 at Ambiente is ok - and what redeems a boring downhill hole with bailouts everywhere?

 

#5 is more of a push...the par 5 is much better than it looks. unless you hit the ball 215 off the tee like you do! Point taken.

 

#6 is more of a push to me; it is a heck of a par 3...just not good looking...put it in "better surroundings" it would be awesome -but it doesn't have better surroundings...

 

#11 just because it is a B-green does not make it better....push to me; plus visual is better at Verrado - nah, not close.

 

#15 Verrado par 5 is better; that par 3 is dumb -water and bunker left are just dumb and if the pin is in the lower green, then it is a boring shot (yes, you can play a gimmick shot to the top and hope it rolls down...but in reality, it is just a lower green. - again, you are just wrong on this one, "interesting", not close, Ambiente wins

 

#17 think the par 3 with with water right and a underrated green with tough locations possible is better - u r on crack!

 

To reiterate: Verrado is much more "interesting"; Ambiente does have more holes that are better. Verrado has more holes that are significantly better. And imo, Verrado is way more of a challenge than Ambiente - recent tournament I saw double digit HCs breaking 80 at a inordinate clip.

 

So we need vote: who is more likely on crack?!? I agree!!! Or, better yet, we should meet up and play both courses, twice, once on crack, once without...

[puttnforthe8]

Nice job DS.

 

#3 Verrado wins, the par 5 at Ambiente is ok - and what redeems a boring downhill hole with bailouts everywhere?

 

#5 is more of a push...the par 5 is much better than it looks. unless you hit the ball 215 off the tee like you do! Point taken.

 

#6 is more of a push to me; it is a heck of a par 3...just not good looking...put it in "better surroundings" it would be awesome -but it doesn't have better surroundings...

 

#11 just because it is a B-green does not make it better....push to me; plus visual is better at Verrado - nah, not close.

 

#15 Verrado par 5 is better; that par 3 is dumb -water and bunker left are just dumb and if the pin is in the lower green, then it is a boring shot (yes, you can play a gimmick shot to the top and hope it rolls down...but in reality, it is just a lower green. - again, you are just wrong on this one, "interesting", not close, Ambiente wins

 

#17 think the par 3 with with water right and a underrated green with tough locations possible is better - u r on crack!

 

To reiterate: Verrado is much more "interesting"; Ambiente does have more holes that are better. Verrado has more holes that are significantly better. And imo, Verrado is way more of a challenge than Ambiente - recent tournament I saw double digit HCs breaking 80 at a inordinate clip.

 

So we need vote: who is more likely on crack?!? I agree!!! Or, better yet, we should meet up and play both courses, twice, once on crack, once without...

 

At least on a 5th of Fireball!

 

This summer bro...we will do both! Deal? We will bring TJ our for the technical assessment and Matt out for the review assessment. $20 a hole, you vs. me.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I'm posting to bookmark this. It's been a few years since i played Verrado. While I've played Ambiente many many times. Not fair for me to truly compare the two until i get back out to Verrado which hopefully will be soon.

 

I don't recall Verrado being all that much better or memorable to be honest which is why it's not higher in my top 25. Some of my thoughts on design have changed so I'd love to get back out there again to give it a fair assessment and re evaluation for my top 25.

[DrSchteeve]

Nice job DS.

 

#3 Verrado wins, the par 5 at Ambiente is ok - and what redeems a boring downhill hole with bailouts everywhere?

 

#5 is more of a push...the par 5 is much better than it looks. unless you hit the ball 215 off the tee like you do! Point taken.

 

#6 is more of a push to me; it is a heck of a par 3...just not good looking...put it in "better surroundings" it would be awesome -but it doesn't have better surroundings...

 

#11 just because it is a B-green does not make it better....push to me; plus visual is better at Verrado - nah, not close.

 

#15 Verrado par 5 is better; that par 3 is dumb -water and bunker left are just dumb and if the pin is in the lower green, then it is a boring shot (yes, you can play a gimmick shot to the top and hope it rolls down...but in reality, it is just a lower green. - again, you are just wrong on this one, "interesting", not close, Ambiente wins

 

#17 think the par 3 with with water right and a underrated green with tough locations possible is better - u r on crack!

 

To reiterate: Verrado is much more "interesting"; Ambiente does have more holes that are better. Verrado has more holes that are significantly better. And imo, Verrado is way more of a challenge than Ambiente - recent tournament I saw double digit HCs breaking 80 at a inordinate clip.

 

So we need vote: who is more likely on crack?!? I agree!!! Or, better yet, we should meet up and play both courses, twice, once on crack, once without...

 

At least on a 5th of Fireball!

 

This summer bro...we will do both! Deal? We will bring TJ our for the technical assessment and Matt out for the review assessment. $20 a hole, you vs. me.

 

In! You from the tips, me from the ladies tees...

[puttnforthe8]

I'm posting to bookmark this. It's been a few years since i played Verrado. While I've played Ambiente many many times. Not fair for me to truly compare the two until i get back out to Verrado which hopefully will be soon.

 

I don't recall Verrado being all that much better or memorable to be honest which is why it's not higher in my top 25. Some of my thoughts on design have changed so I'd love to get back out there again to give it a fair assessment and re evaluation for my top 25.

 

One of 2 in! TJ...commit!

[puttnforthe8]

Nice job DS.

 

#3 Verrado wins, the par 5 at Ambiente is ok - and what redeems a boring downhill hole with bailouts everywhere?

 

#5 is more of a push...the par 5 is much better than it looks. unless you hit the ball 215 off the tee like you do! Point taken.

 

#6 is more of a push to me; it is a heck of a par 3...just not good looking...put it in "better surroundings" it would be awesome -but it doesn't have better surroundings...

 

#11 just because it is a B-green does not make it better....push to me; plus visual is better at Verrado - nah, not close.

 

#15 Verrado par 5 is better; that par 3 is dumb -water and bunker left are just dumb and if the pin is in the lower green, then it is a boring shot (yes, you can play a gimmick shot to the top and hope it rolls down...but in reality, it is just a lower green. - again, you are just wrong on this one, "interesting", not close, Ambiente wins

 

#17 think the par 3 with with water right and a underrated green with tough locations possible is better - u r on crack!

 

To reiterate: Verrado is much more "interesting"; Ambiente does have more holes that are better. Verrado has more holes that are significantly better. And imo, Verrado is way more of a challenge than Ambiente - recent tournament I saw double digit HCs breaking 80 at a inordinate clip.

 

So we need vote: who is more likely on crack?!? I agree!!! Or, better yet, we should meet up and play both courses, twice, once on crack, once without...

 

At least on a 5th of Fireball!

 

This summer bro...we will do both! Deal? We will bring TJ our for the technical assessment and Matt out for the review assessment. $20 a hole, you vs. me.

 

In! You from the tips, me from the ladies tees...

 

Why? You are a self-proclaimed 9.5...or is that a vanity cap? I am a 7....so you can have a stroke on the # 1 & #2 HC holes. Step up! A course, deserves to be evaluated in how it makes a player pucker up on that 4 footer when $$$ are on the line!

[DrSchteeve]

Nice job DS.

 

#3 Verrado wins, the par 5 at Ambiente is ok - and what redeems a boring downhill hole with bailouts everywhere?

 

#5 is more of a push...the par 5 is much better than it looks. unless you hit the ball 215 off the tee like you do! Point taken.

 

#6 is more of a push to me; it is a heck of a par 3...just not good looking...put it in "better surroundings" it would be awesome -but it doesn't have better surroundings...

 

#11 just because it is a B-green does not make it better....push to me; plus visual is better at Verrado - nah, not close.

 

#15 Verrado par 5 is better; that par 3 is dumb -water and bunker left are just dumb and if the pin is in the lower green, then it is a boring shot (yes, you can play a gimmick shot to the top and hope it rolls down...but in reality, it is just a lower green. - again, you are just wrong on this one, "interesting", not close, Ambiente wins

 

#17 think the par 3 with with water right and a underrated green with tough locations possible is better - u r on crack!

 

To reiterate: Verrado is much more "interesting"; Ambiente does have more holes that are better. Verrado has more holes that are significantly better. And imo, Verrado is way more of a challenge than Ambiente - recent tournament I saw double digit HCs breaking 80 at a inordinate clip.

 

So we need vote: who is more likely on crack?!? I agree!!! Or, better yet, we should meet up and play both courses, twice, once on crack, once without...

 

At least on a 5th of Fireball!

 

This summer bro...we will do both! Deal? We will bring TJ our for the technical assessment and Matt out for the review assessment. $20 a hole, you vs. me.

 

In! You from the tips, me from the ladies tees...

 

Why? You are a self-proclaimed 9.5...or is that a vanity cap? I am a 7....so you can have a stroke on the # 1 & #2 HC holes. Step up! A course, deserves to be evaluated in how it makes a player pucker up on that 4 footer when $$$ are on the line!

 

Vanity cap, perhaps, don't get me started on how the handicap system fails to account for distance. And I'm heading for rotator cuff surgery or a shoulder replacement, snore.................... you get the picture.......but I'll still play.......Verrado White's are 6,228, Ambiente Camel's are 6,223, you can play from there or longer, your choice, but that's where I play.

 

C'mon teejay, I know you want to play from the longer tees with the big boys, which is fine with me, I'm sure we can work something out. Remember, last time we played you had 4 birdies....

[fore_life]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[DrSchteeve]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

OK, Fore, we'll let you in....now we need a 6th-8th....are we smelling an outing yet....? Brian?

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I'm posting to bookmark this. It's been a few years since i played Verrado. While I've played Ambiente many many times. Not fair for me to truly compare the two until i get back out to Verrado which hopefully will be soon.

 

I don't recall Verrado being all that much better or memorable to be honest which is why it's not higher in my top 25. Some of my thoughts on design have changed so I'd love to get back out there again to give it a fair assessment and re evaluation for my top 25.

 

One of 2 in! TJ...commit!

 

When does Victory shut down? I would love to do a 36 hole day out there to make the most of the drive

[az2au]

I should be able to make it depending on the dates. Something that I hadn't thought of is that I have only played Verrado from the tips and one up. Not sure that makes a lot of difference but it may. Similar can be said for Ambiente and I wonder if that is a bigger factor than I considered.

[DrSchteeve]

I'm posting to bookmark this. It's been a few years since i played Verrado. While I've played Ambiente many many times. Not fair for me to truly compare the two until i get back out to Verrado which hopefully will be soon.

 

I don't recall Verrado being all that much better or memorable to be honest which is why it's not higher in my top 25. Some of my thoughts on design have changed so I'd love to get back out there again to give it a fair assessment and re evaluation for my top 25.

 

One of 2 in! TJ...commit!

 

When does Victory shut down? I would love to do a 36 hole day out there to make the most of the drive

 

Called pro shop. They don't have a firm date, but somewhere May 15-20, to reopen in mid-September. Probably next weekend would have to be it.

 

Soooooooo.... talked with pro shop. We can play next weekend, either Saturday or Sunday, $65 per round, no discount for playing both, so $130 to play both (except Puttn will get free golf after he spanks me), should try to tee off before 8. They recommend the original Founder's course first then the Victory course.

[teejaywhy]

An interesting way to compare, very thoughtful Steve.

 

Without the detailed analysis, I would rank them similarly, both very good layouts, neither significantly better than the other. Perhaps Verrado with the slight edge.

 

For a more analytical comparison, I like using the Golfweek criteria. Perhaps a different outcome would result.

 

I'm in for the eval tour and observer of the crackhead match.

 

[DrSchteeve]

I should be able to make it depending on the dates. Something that I hadn't thought of is that I have only played Verrado from the tips and one up. Not sure that makes a lot of difference but it may. Similar can be said for Ambiente and I wonder if that is a bigger factor than I considered.

 

I did mean to put that into my original review(s) - some courses play very differently from the tips vs. the shorter tees. I sometimes play 6500 or slightly more but I usually play 6000 to 6200, which is where I played for most of my rounds at both courses.

[DrSchteeve]

Here's the deal. Saturday, May 13, tee times for 2 4somes, start at original Founder's course 7:41 and 7:52, then lunch, whatever, tee times something like 1:20 and 1:30 for the Victory course (not sure if there is wiggle room to move up those times). $65 per round, $130 total.

 

I'm going to start a separate thread, both in the regular forum and the Tourneys forum, I just need confirmations so I can drop the second foursome if we don't have enough (or add?).

[teejaywhy]

Out unfortunately, have a prior engagement.

 

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I'm posting to bookmark this. It's been a few years since i played Verrado. While I've played Ambiente many many times. Not fair for me to truly compare the two until i get back out to Verrado which hopefully will be soon.

 

I don't recall Verrado being all that much better or memorable to be honest which is why it's not higher in my top 25. Some of my thoughts on design have changed so I'd love to get back out there again to give it a fair assessment and re evaluation for my top 25.

 

One of 2 in! TJ...commit!

 

When does Victory shut down? I would love to do a 36 hole day out there to make the most of the drive

 

Called pro shop. They don't have a firm date, but somewhere May 15-20, to reopen in mid-September. Probably next weekend would have to be it.

 

Soooooooo.... talked with pro shop. We can play next weekend, either Saturday or Sunday, $65 per round, no discount for playing both, so $130 to play both (except Puttn will get free golf after he spanks me), should try to tee off before 8. They recommend the original Founder's course first then the Victory course.

 

 

$49 on Teeoff for The Founders in the morning or $39 in afternoon if play Victory first.

 

https://www.teeoff.com/golf-course/verrado-golf-club-buckeye-az-85396-tee-times?date=05-13-2017

 

Victory is $49 1pm or later so the cheapest way would be Founders first via teeoff, Victory second close to 1pm $100 vs $130.

 

With us closing on our condo purchase in the next 45 days or so and still not having the closing costs total locked down yet I really dont want to spend $100+ on golf + lunch etc in a day. Since I have a feeling our closing costs will come back higher rather than lower. Guess Ill have to wait till fall for Victory.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Got back out to Verrado again today. I reshuffled my rankings again and moved it up. It is better than I remember but still Ambiente over Verrado for me by quite a bit actually.

 

I'm not going to do a hole by hole comparison

 

Verrado Founders

Pro's Verrado has a better backdrop and setting but that does not really make the course better in my book. Good mix of par 3 yardage.

 

Cons. It is far from a walkers course. Too much average offset by only a couple very good holes.

 

Ambiente

 

Pros, Better Green complexes, better strategic options both off the tee and on approach. Walkable

 

Cons. A tad repetitive at times by virtue of being on a dead flat piece of land. The last par 3 is a bad hole/green complex.

 

Overall I moved up Founders 2 or 3 spots on my list to just outside top 10, put it over Estrella. I would still rather play Verde River even after the changes.

 

Note. # 11 at Ambiente is not a Biaritz green.