Will Jack still blame the ball?

[Mark_888]

Jack *never* bashed TW about that or anything. You are mistaken.

 

I believe you are mistaken. Everyone bashed Tiger about his marital infidelity, including Tiger himself.

 

What Jack did in addition, was to put Mickelson up as an example as a great family man and a person of high moral character. I can't comment on the family part, but I believe that someone who obtains illegal profits (that Mickelson was forced to return) on insider stock trading to pay off gambling debts is not a person of high moral character.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Maybe he meant Phil had high molar character. It might have just been a harmless dental comment.

[Hawkeye77]

Jack *never* bashed TW about that or anything. You are mistaken.

 

I believe you are mistaken. Everyone bashed Tiger about his marital infidelity, including Tiger himself.

 

What Jack did in addition, was to put Mickelson up as an example as a great family man and a person of high moral character. I can't comment on the family part, but I believe that someone who obtains illegal profits (that Mickelson was forced to return) on insider stock trading to pay off gambling debts is not a person of high moral character.

 

Complete BS and more useless trolling.

 

Nicklaus said it was none of his business and a private matter for Tiger and his family.

[widow-maker]

As far as Phil and his family... what exactly did Jack say about them that wasn't true?

 

I never said that Jack said things about Phil's family that were not true. What Jack did was put forth Phil as a person of exceptionally high moral character. IMO, a person who has multi-million dollar gambling debts that need to be paid off with illegal profits from insider stock trading is not a person of high moral character.

At the time Jack made those statements, had Phil been involved in insider trading that Jack knew about? How do you expect Jack to know 5 years before Phil gets involved that he's going to do it? At the time Jack made his statement, it was true to his knowledge. Your premise is ridiculous.

[golfer07840]

It seems that most WRXers don't agree with Jack and limiting distance which I think is absurd... Screw it, lets get rid of COR limits, let them play whatever they want, we will build 10,000 yard courses and let them hit 500 yard drives with no curve because of ball design.... The game has changed due to equipment for the worse, it's no longer a skill game, the sweet spots so large it makes it so players swing as hard as they want and no curve to worry about with such low spin...

You're right. No skill is needed. ANYONE can make the PGA Tour. It's so easy!

 

I'm quitting my job tomorrow and going pro. All I need is better equipment! No skill necessary.

[Hawkeye77]

Jack never bashed TW for anything. Where did you see that?.

 

Never? That is a very big word. Nicklaus, like many others, bashed him about his marital infidelity. Nicklaus had a right to say those things, and maybe Tiger deserved a lot the bashing he got (although I don't know enough details of what went on inside his marriage to pass total judgement). To be fair, Tiger admitted he made a lot of mistakes and deserved to be bashed for it.

 

What amazes me was that when Nicklaus was bashing Tiger, he simultaneously heaped tons of praise on Mickelson as great family man, and a person of high moral character. So I was wondering why we have not heard any comments from Nicklaus about Phil's multi-million dollar gambling debts and insider stock trading that forced him to return about $1 million in stock profits, while narrowly escaping criminal prosecution.

 

When I talk about Phil's insider stock trading "problems" some on this forum have expressed ignorance, even though I posted a link above that explains what happened.

 

Why keep posting the same BS over and over. You are making it up.

 

Nicklaus never bashed him and made public statements that it was a private matter.

 

Just the same crap over and over from you.

[Railroading13]

It seems that most WRXers don't agree with Jack and limiting distance which I think is absurd... Screw it, lets get rid of COR limits, let them play whatever they want, we will build 10,000 yard courses and let them hit 500 yard drives with no curve because of ball design.... The game has changed due to equipment for the worse, it's no longer a skill game, the sweet spots so large it makes it so players swing as hard as they want and no curve to worry about with such low spin...

You're right. No skill is needed. ANYONE can make the PGA Tour. It's so easy! I'm quitting my job tomorrow and going pro. All I need is better equipment! No skill necessary.

 

 

Completely misunderstood my point.... I should have clarified... no longer is it purely a game of skill... It is now a mix of athleticism and skill, skewed towards higher swing speeds because it is a lot harder to mishit a shot... Add in the fact that the ball spins less, and yeah, the skill part of the game clearly diminishes. Caps need to be put in place now on the golf ball, otherwise it will continue to get out of control, then 17 cappers like you will be hitting it 300 and that would ruin the game IMO

[Mark_888]

Heroes - Phil Mickelson

 

By Jack Nicklaus

Thursday, Apr. 29, 2010

 

Now that I am five years removed from competitive golf, I, like many of you, have simply become a fan of the game. I have long enjoyed the engaging personality of Phil Mickelson, 39, and the smile that has endeared him to many fans. We have all celebrated Phil's victories and cried with him over the struggles faced by his wife Amy and his mother. Family has always been my priority, and their presence outside the ropes has underlined every win. After he won this year's Masters, I imagine that slipping into a third green jacket would not have meant nearly as much to Phil had he not first slipped into the embrace of his family. That's the way it should be. My wife Barbara and I are proud to call Amy and Phil friends.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1984685_1984949_1985236,00.html

 

Not a coincidence that this appeared in Time Magazine shortly after the full extent of Tiger's family problems were made public. I am not trying to justify Tiger's actions, but I wonder what Jack thinks about Phil's recent multi-million dollar gambling debts and his need to engage in insider stock trading to pay them off.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/understanding-the-mickelson-case-why-lefty-got-lucky

 

Actually, my main criticism is not of Mickelson, but of Nicklaus, who I believe is a duplicitous person. I have highlighted Jack's silence about Mickelson's insider stock trading problems (after wildly praising him as a Hero in 2010), and also Jack's self-serving (and ridiculous) comments that he thinks he faced tougher competition than Tiger Woods or current golfers. During Nicklaus' prime years, there were only about 10 possible winners for most tournaments, and usually only about 5 likely winners.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

I think you've missed Jack's point.

So what is Jacks point? From what I read his point is that the modern ball is too easy to hit stupid distances, like the drive mentioned above.

 

If that's his point, then he is right.

[bladehunter]

Heroes - Phil Mickelson

 

By Jack Nicklaus

Thursday, Apr. 29, 2010

 

Now that I am five years removed from competitive golf, I, like many of you, have simply become a fan of the game. I have long enjoyed the engaging personality of Phil Mickelson, 39, and the smile that has endeared him to many fans. We have all celebrated Phil's victories and cried with him over the struggles faced by his wife Amy and his mother. Family has always been my priority, and their presence outside the ropes has underlined every win. After he won this year's Masters, I imagine that slipping into a third green jacket would not have meant nearly as much to Phil had he not first slipped into the embrace of his family. That's the way it should be. My wife Barbara and I are proud to call Amy and Phil friends.

http://content.time....1985236,00.html

 

Not a coincidence that this appeared in Time Magazine shortly after the full extent of Tiger's family problems were made public. I am not trying to justify Tiger's actions, but I wonder what Jack thinks about Phil's recent multi-million dollar gambling debts and his need to engage in insider stock trading to pay them off.

http://www.golfdiges...lefty-got-lucky

 

Actually, my main criticism is not of Mickelson, but of Nicklaus, who I believe is a duplicitous person. I have highlighted Jack's silence about Mickelson's insider stock trading problems (after wildly praising him as a Hero in 2010), and also Jack's self-serving (and ridiculous) comments that he thinks he faced tougher competition than Tiger Woods or current golfers. During Nicklaus' prime years, there were only about 10 possible winners for most tournaments, and usually only about 5 likely winners.

 

 

 

 

you sure have a phil hard-on.... what the fleck does he have to do with the ball being out of control?

[wobgon]

Heroes - Phil Mickelson

 

By Jack Nicklaus

Thursday, Apr. 29, 2010

 

Now that I am five years removed from competitive golf, I, like many of you, have simply become a fan of the game. I have long enjoyed the engaging personality of Phil Mickelson, 39, and the smile that has endeared him to many fans. We have all celebrated Phil's victories and cried with him over the struggles faced by his wife Amy and his mother. Family has always been my priority, and their presence outside the ropes has underlined every win. After he won this year's Masters, I imagine that slipping into a third green jacket would not have meant nearly as much to Phil had he not first slipped into the embrace of his family. That's the way it should be. My wife Barbara and I are proud to call Amy and Phil friends.

http://content.time....1985236,00.html

 

Not a coincidence that this appeared in Time Magazine shortly after the full extent of Tiger's family problems were made public. I am not trying to justify Tiger's actions, but I wonder what Jack thinks about Phil's recent multi-million dollar gambling debts and his need to engage in insider stock trading to pay them off.

http://www.golfdiges...lefty-got-lucky

 

Actually, my main criticism is not of Mickelson, but of Nicklaus, who I believe is a duplicitous person. I have highlighted Jack's silence about Mickelson's insider stock trading problems (after wildly praising him as a Hero in 2010), and also Jack's self-serving (and ridiculous) comments that he thinks he faced tougher competition than Tiger Woods or current golfers. During Nicklaus' prime years, there were only about 10 possible winners for most tournaments, and usually only about 5 likely winners.

You need to take a break.......Your shtick is really getting old.

[Mark_888]

At the time Jack made those statements, had Phil been involved in insider trading that Jack knew about? How do you expect Jack to know 5 years before Phil gets involved that he's going to do it? At the time Jack made his statement, it was true to his knowledge. Your premise is ridiculous.

 

Obviously he did not know back then. But given his previous praise of Mickelson, maybe Jack could set the record straight and moderate his praise of Mickelson based on more recent information. But Nicklaus said he is a friend of Mickelson, so that is unlikely.

 

The point is that one should not take what Nicklaus says about a subject to have any more weight or influence than anyone else. I don't really care what Nicklaus thinks about the current equipment used to play golf now, because I know everything he says is going to be self-serving to that final point in time when the golf gods will have to decide who the greatest golfer of all time really is.

[hell_is_chrome]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

In 1963 Jack won the long drive contest at the PGA Championship with a drive of 341 yards. When the PGA brought the long drive contest back Louis Oosthuizen won with a drive of 340.

[toc]

Ahhh.. so you're just a big ol tiger woods fan... Good for you!

I think Tiger is (or was) a very good golfer. But that is not the subject of this discussion.

 

The discussion is a comparison of marital infidelity (not illegal) with insider stock trading (which is illegal). If both Tiger and Phil deserve to be bashed for their actions, then fine. But I don't hear many people talking about Phil's "problems" and specifically haven't heard Nicklaus mention them, even though Nicklaus promoted Phil as a person of great family values and high moral character precisely at the time that Tiger was having his problems.

 

I thought it was about golf balls traveling really far...?

[wobgon]

Heroes - Phil Mickelson

 

By Jack Nicklaus

Thursday, Apr. 29, 2010

 

Now that I am five years removed from competitive golf, I, like many of you, have simply become a fan of the game. I have long enjoyed the engaging personality of Phil Mickelson, 39, and the smile that has endeared him to many fans. We have all celebrated Phil's victories and cried with him over the struggles faced by his wife Amy and his mother. Family has always been my priority, and their presence outside the ropes has underlined every win. After he won this year's Masters, I imagine that slipping into a third green jacket would not have meant nearly as much to Phil had he not first slipped into the embrace of his family. That's the way it should be. My wife Barbara and I are proud to call Amy and Phil friends.

http://content.time....1985236,00.html

 

Not a coincidence that this appeared in Time Magazine shortly after the full extent of Tiger's family problems were made public. I am not trying to justify Tiger's actions, but I wonder what Jack thinks about Phil's recent multi-million dollar gambling debts and his need to engage in insider stock trading to pay them off.

http://www.golfdiges...lefty-got-lucky

 

Actually, my main criticism is not of Mickelson, but of Nicklaus, who I believe is a duplicitous person. I have highlighted Jack's silence about Mickelson's insider stock trading problems (after wildly praising him as a Hero in 2010), and also Jack's self-serving (and ridiculous) comments that he thinks he faced tougher competition than Tiger Woods or current golfers. During Nicklaus' prime years, there were only about 10 possible winners for most tournaments, and usually only about 5 likely winners.

 

 

 

 

you sure have a phil hard-on.... what the fleck does he have to do with the ball being out of control?

 

But look at all the time he took to type all that fascinating information.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

It's no longer a skill game? What is it exactly?

 

Please teach me how to shoot low scores without skill and a short game. You are just wrong, the game is different now. They have rules to limit performance, driving distance hasn't increased that much in the last ten years; it is still a skill game.

 

No offence to Jack but the fields were a joke when he won his tournaments compared to what they are today, if I were him I'd just keep quiet and say 'the game is different but great' when asked.

 

I just love it when people give advice to Jack Nicklaus :swoon:

[Mark_888]

what the fleck does he have to do with the ball being out of control?

 

Good question. It has to do whether we take seriously anything that Jack says about the subject. Jack is no longer playing, and anything he says about equipment used today is not said to better the game of golf, but is merely self-serving about his own claim to greatness when he is compared to current golfers.

 

So, I don't have a "hard-on" about Phil (but maybe I do have one about Jack).

[Mark_888]

In 1963 Jack won the long drive contest at the PGA Championships with a drive of 341 yards. When the PGA brought the long drive contest back Louis Oosthuizen won with a drive of 340.

 

Louis Oosthuizen? My dog on all fours is taller than Louis Oosthuizen.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

Ahhh.. so you're just a big ol tiger woods fan... Good for you!

I think Tiger is (or was) a very good golfer. But that is not the subject of this discussion.

 

The discussion is a comparison of marital infidelity (not illegal) with insider stock trading (which is illegal). If both Tiger and Phil deserve to be bashed for their actions, then fine. But I don't hear many people talking about Phil's "problems" and specifically haven't heard Nicklaus mention them, even though Nicklaus promoted Phil as a person of great family values and high moral character precisely at the time that Tiger was having his problems.

 

No, the discussion is about Jack blaming the ball. It has nothing to do with marital infidelity. Granted some people took it there which is typical on Golfwrx as a lot of discussions tend to veer offline.

[widow-maker]

At the time Jack made those statements, had Phil been involved in insider trading that Jack knew about? How do you expect Jack to know 5 years before Phil gets involved that he's going to do it? At the time Jack made his statement, it was true to his knowledge. Your premise is ridiculous.

 

Obviously he did not know back then. But given his previous praise of Mickelson, maybe Jack could set the record straight and moderate his praise of Mickelson based on more recent information. But Nicklaus said he is a friend of Mickelson, so that is unlikely.

 

The point is that one should not take what Nicklaus says about a subject to have any more weight or influence than anyone else. I don't really care what Nicklaus thinks about the current equipment used to play golf now, because I know everything he says is going to be self-serving to that final point in time when the golf gods will have to decide who the greatest golfer of all time really is.

I take what Nicklaus says about golf with more weight because he's the most accomplished golfer of all time. Similarly, I'd take what Jones, Hogan, Palmer and a host of others with high accomplishments say about golf. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them, but they've earned the right to be heard and the reason that sportswriters ask questions and quote them is because the American public wants to hear what they have to say.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

What doesn't compute to me is why it matters that someone can hit an 8-iron from 204 or a mid-iron into 18 at Baltusrol. Why should that need to change? Is it because the people bitching about it can't do it? Because that's exactly what it sounds like when they start popping off about it. Tiger didn't have much of an issue when he hit driver-wedge into 15 in 1997. Jack probably did the same with a toaster and a hatchet (or whatever they were forced to play with back then). Tiger or Jack attempting to say that their games weren't power-based is a joke. The fact that they only made comments about it after they were no longer the longest tells me all I need to know.

 

So there should be no limits to how far the ball should go?

[Mark_888]

But look at all the time he took to type all that fascinating information.

 

It is a shame I have to type, an retype the same info many times, because apparently some didn't know about it, or are not capable of understanding it.

 

So is that the extent of your intellectual rebuttal? You just call it "fascinating" information as if you don't have explain how and why you disagree?

[Mark_888]

I take what Nicklaus says about golf with more weight because he's the most accomplished golfer of all time. Similarly, I'd take what Jones, Hogan, Palmer and a host of others with high accomplishments say about golf. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them, but they've earned the right to be heard and the reason that sportswriters ask questions and quote them is because the American public wants to hear what they have to say.

 

I think everyone has a right to for their opinion to be heard, and provided the opportunity to back up their ideas with logic and evidence. Athletic ability has little to do with it IMO.

 

No one would suggest the best running backs or the best quarterbacks should be in charge of the rules of football.

[farmer]

what the fleck does he have to do with the ball being out of control?

 

Good question. It has to do whether we take seriously anything that Jack says about the subject. Jack is no longer playing, and anything he says about equipment used today is not said to better the game of golf, but is merely self-serving about his own claim to greatness when he is compared to current golfers.

 

So, I don't have a "hard-on" about Phil (but maybe I do have one about Jack).

His "claim" to greatness? For a newbie, an excellent series of troll posts. You're an idiot, but excellent trolling.

[tatertot]

In 1963 Jack won the long drive contest at the PGA Championships with a drive of 341 yards. When the PGA brought the long drive contest back Louis Oosthuizen won with a drive of 340.

 

Louis Oosthuizen? My dog on all fours is taller than Louis Oosthuizen.

 

So this is all a schtick right? You can't really be this dense.

[widow-maker]

I take what Nicklaus says about golf with more weight because he's the most accomplished golfer of all time. Similarly, I'd take what Jones, Hogan, Palmer and a host of others with high accomplishments say about golf. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them, but they've earned the right to be heard and the reason that sportswriters ask questions and quote them is because the American public wants to hear what they have to say.

 

I think everyone has a right to for their opinion to be heard, and provided the opportunity to back up their ideas with logic and evidence. Athletic ability has little to do with it IMO.

 

No one would suggest the best running backs or the best quarterbacks should be in charge of the rules of football.

No, but they often get hired to do TV analysis after their playing days. The American public prefers to hear expert commentary from those who have been involved in the game. Sportswriters go to Jack Nicklaus for his reaction to things as they happen. Why do they pick him instead of picking, say, you. Your point of view may be just as compelling as Jack's, but nobody cares what you have to say about the subject because they don't know who you are. There's a reason Jack has a pulpit any time he wants to use it.

[golfer07840]

It seems that most WRXers don't agree with Jack and limiting distance which I think is absurd... Screw it, lets get rid of COR limits, let them play whatever they want, we will build 10,000 yard courses and let them hit 500 yard drives with no curve because of ball design.... The game has changed due to equipment for the worse, it's no longer a skill game, the sweet spots so large it makes it so players swing as hard as they want and no curve to worry about with such low spin...

You're right. No skill is needed. ANYONE can make the PGA Tour. It's so easy! I'm quitting my job tomorrow and going pro. All I need is better equipment! No skill necessary.

 

 

Completely misunderstood my point.... I should have clarified... no longer is it purely a game of skill... It is now a mix of athleticism and skill, skewed towards higher swing speeds because it is a lot harder to mishit a shot... Add in the fact that the ball spins less, and yeah, the skill part of the game clearly diminishes. Caps need to be put in place now on the golf ball, otherwise it will continue to get out of control, then 17 cappers like you will be hitting it 300 and that would ruin the game IMO

I'm going to state this for the record:

 

I will never hit a ball 300 yds. You could have me hit a mini Super Ball, and I'd never hit it 300 yards.

[wobgon]

In 1963 Jack won the long drive contest at the PGA Championships with a drive of 341 yards. When the PGA brought the long drive contest back Louis Oosthuizen won with a drive of 340.

 

Louis Oosthuizen? My dog on all fours is taller than Louis Oosthuizen.

 

So this is all a schtick right? You can't really be this dense.

Oh, i have to disagree......I really think he can be and is.

[Shilgy]

what the fleck does he have to do with the ball being out of control?

 

Good question. It has to do whether we take seriously anything that Jack says about the subject. Jack is no longer playing, and anything he says about equipment used today is not said to better the game of golf, but is merely self-serving about his own claim to greatness when he is compared to current golfers.

 

So, I don't have a "hard-on" about Phil (but maybe I do have one about Jack).

His "claim" to greatness? For a newbie, an excellent series of troll posts. You're an idiot, but excellent trolling.

Yeah, but he did get his 75 posts in on you guys. Now he's off to the bst.

[Bob57]

Nicklaus says a lot of self-serving stuff, such as trying to convince everyone that there was more competition during his prime years (which is patently absurd). During his prime years, Nicklaus won about 16% of the tournaments he played in, with thin competition at the top. Tiger won about 35% of the tournaments during his prime, with much, much, deeper fields.

 

But obviously the equipment is much better than before, but everyone has access to the same equipment, and there a lot more top quality golfers out there. Also, unless Nicklaus started a strength training regimen to match today's top golfers, he would not hit the ball as far as today's longest hitters.

 

I would suggest you look at the statistics on Jacks % of tournaments won compared to Tiger. Jack Ruined his percentage by playing way too long on the PGA tour well into his 50s. Wouldn't face facts he was no longer competitive and hated the idea of playing the senior tour. From 42 on the only tournament he won was the Masters. He contended in some majors but by and large all he did was pile up missed cuts. That won't happen to Tiger because his body is shot, so he won't be playing beyond his expiration date (had his body held up). Apples to Oranges just like Jacks competition to Tigers competition. The only way that would ever have been settled was each one playing in the others era with the same equipment at the same time. Result would probably be Jack wouldn't have 18 majors and Tiger wouldn't have 14 majors. I always do love the thin competition at the top argument on Jack...Watson, Palmer, Trevino, Player, Floyd, Casper...real thin, while Tiger whooped up on those deep fields May, DiMarco, Mediate...while the decent players took a hike (Els, Mickelson, VJ). Might want to add up the majors of that thin field versus that real deep field of Tigers.. Can't use the one and done argument in the addition as there were plenty of those in Jacks day as well..