Playing To Win or He Just Doesn't Know Unwritten Rules of Match Play?

[Vindog]

Playing in league play the other night, (mind you we are playing basically for a beer in the long run) but something got to me & was wondering if I just over reacted.

How many people have you played with that during a match, 2 vs 2, are constantly asking you before you hole out .... "so what's this for?" or "what are lying here?" or "You putting for a par or bogey here?" All before you actually hole out and finish the hole!

For some reason this just annoyed the hell out of me because it happened more than once during the round. Each time it seemed as though he was doing it on purpose.

Grant it, I should have played better and blocked it out. If I was playing better and would have made the putts then maybe it wouldn't have annoyed me as much but it did. So if he was trying to get under my skin then he accomplished it. Played one of the worst rounds of my life.

I never said anything to him in the end but asked other guys later around the bar & they said "yeah, he's known for doing that."

 

So what would you have done? Would you have said something to him politely or just ignored it? Am I wrong and over reacting? I know there is no such "rule" per se, but it's just common courtesy to settle all scores off the green after everyone has holed out. It's not like the scores will change.

 

Thoughts?

anyone who asks what I lay before I'm done. I will always shave a stroke on Par 3s and 4s and maybe 2 on a par 5. Then record the proper score when I'm done, that usually gets a comical response, if you want to know ,.... pay attention

 

That's a loss of hole penalty for you. Fortunately, you don't play against anyone who a) knows the rule, or b) feels like calling you on it.

 

Be careful out there!

[LittleLeftToRight]

He has a right to ask you, and you have to tell him the correct number. Nothing in the rules says it has to be in English! Whip out some Chinese, or French. Or Swahili. Whatever.

 

He'll stop asking...

[LeoLeo99]

Playing in league play the other night, (mind you we are playing basically for a beer in the long run) but something got to me & was wondering if I just over reacted.

How many people have you played with that during a match, 2 vs 2, are constantly asking you before you hole out .... "so what's this for?" or "what are lying here?" or "You putting for a par or bogey here?" All before you actually hole out and finish the hole!

For some reason this just annoyed the hell out of me because it happened more than once during the round. Each time it seemed as though he was doing it on purpose.

Grant it, I should have played better and blocked it out. If I was playing better and would have made the putts then maybe it wouldn't have annoyed me as much but it did. So if he was trying to get under my skin then he accomplished it. Played one of the worst rounds of my life.

I never said anything to him in the end but asked other guys later around the bar & they said "yeah, he's known for doing that."

 

So what would you have done? Would you have said something to him politely or just ignored it? Am I wrong and over reacting? I know there is no such "rule" per se, but it's just common courtesy to settle all scores off the green after everyone has holed out. It's not like the scores will change.

 

Thoughts?

 

I wasn't there so hard to tell just went on, but if the opponent was acting a jerk, I'd have no problem saying something impolite. No way you talk to an opponent while they're addressing the ball unless it's to protect them.

[2bGood]

It has happened to me before as well. What really bothered me was the frequency my opponent chose to ask the question. He must have asked on 2/3 of the greens we played that day.

 

I can see it happening a time or two during the match, especially if I was hacking it around, but if it was being used as a ploy to throw me off it didn't really work. Hell, I'm mentally fragile most days on the golf course (and elsewhere), but counting my strokes on a par 4 hole where I hit the fairway, then the green, about to hit my first putt didn't throw me off my game. It just made him seem like a jerk after the third time he asked...

 

To ask you 2 or 3 times in 18 holes does not seem like a big deal.

Gamesmanship and it worked.

 

I would have started announcing what shot I was hitting before I hit it. If I was playing well, I'd keep doing it until he asked me to stop. If he was really being a dick about it, I'd keep doing it all the way till the end and make him putt everything out and I would ask him every shot what he was hitting while still announcing what I was doing. It would be a quick lesson learned for him.

 

Brilliant, especially the part about asking him every shot that he was hitting and making him putt out. There's even the outside chance that Mr. How Many Strokes would learn his lesson and chill with the annoying -- yet completely within the rules -- behavior.

 

In my mind, the unwritten rule on this is to ask only when you're not sure or when there is a good reason to, like when your opponent may have taken extra strokes. People who choose to play this way are more than welcome to do it, they just won't be in my group when I have a choice. Life is too short to spend time on the golf course with jerks.

 

One issue is that higher handicap players can be a bit tougher to keep track of as they are all over the place.

[Sawgrass]

Nothing in the rules says it has to be in English! Whip out some Chinese, or French. Or Swahili. Whatever.

 

 

 

I actually disagree with your interpretation. The Rules don't, of course, specify a particular language. Chinese is fine if both players speak it. The Rules do suggest one's right to understand, a players entitlement to "ascertain" -- to make certain:

 

An opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player, during the play of a hole, the number of strokes he has taken

[fawley]

If your opponent asks because he wants to confirm how the hole stands, and it may influence his next shot, he can and should ask.

 

If your opponent knows where the hole stands and asks because he thinks it's a way to "get in your head", he's a d!ck.

 

I love playing match play, and enjoy gamesmanship within the game (choosing when to concede putts, deciding who putts first or when to pick up in team events etc), but the stuff that is an attempt to get under an opponent's skin is pathetic. I can always see it happening and don't let it bother me, but if that's what you need to do to win a match, then you have some issues.

[Mudguard]

Asking on a slow swing, putts/chips, with fine motor movements, it works surprisingly well.

Give it a try.

 

I have absolutely no intention of giving it a try. I'm playing a match, so I'll let my golf do the talking as much as possible. If someone has an overwhelming urge to ask me how many shots I've had whilst addressing the ball then they might find they will have no putts conceded. I can't believe so many people have such antagonistic matches, all of the matches I've had have been played without any 'gamesmanship'. I will concede that these are either inter-club or Club Championship matches so there is a behaviour expectation, if you're playing for a beer with your mate, then go nuts.

[Splitter]

Gamesmanship and it worked.

 

I would have started announcing what shot I was hitting before I hit it. If I was playing well, I'd keep doing it until he asked me to stop. If he was really being a dick about it, I'd keep doing it all the way till the end and make him putt everything out and I would ask him every shot what he was hitting while still announcing what I was doing. It would be a quick lesson learned for him.

 

This.

 

The guy was a Doosh and it's a Doosh move.

 

You have to recognize it and punch (figuratively) him first.

 

"Hey Jeff, I'm putting for bogey here".

 

Hey Jeff, I'm chipping for bird".

 

Hey Jeff, I really want to make this par putt"

 

And, when he asks as you address, back off and go through your entire pre-shot again. Walk the green if that's what it takes to settle down.

 

Make him and everyone else wait. I would refrain from going after him "hey Jeff, what is this for you?", because it'll just get you out of rhythm. But telling him your score, etc.. puts YOU in control vs. him. When you run into these guys, you have to screw with them twice as hard as they screw with you.

[golfandfishing]

I understand it being within his right to do it ... But right when I'm about to putt he says "what's this for?" I mean literally about to take the putter back... I had already addressed the ball.

How about asking AFTER I stroke it ?? Either way, you get your answer before you play your next shot. Incidentally, the majority of the time he asked was when I was last to putt. So there wasn't another stroke for him to play.

I knew it was within his right... I've been playing for 40+ years I know the rules.

I know, I know ... play better and don't let it get to me. Blah blah blah

 

Total DB move there...

 

Indeed. Pissing in his golf bag is appropriate in this case.

[Sean2]

If he was making a habit of it, i.e., gamesmanship, I would give him the information and then ask him, "Can't you count?" Each and every time. I don't care much for gamesmanship, but if someone is engaging in such practice I am not simply going to lie down and take it either. It then becomes a game within a game. :-)

[golfandfishing]

^^^^

I too would just make it a point to humiliate him. "This is for 3. If I get down in 4 I'll beat your 7." Loud enough for everyone to hear. Or after the hole - " I made 4 there Jimbo, what did you have?" Ask that at least three times before the next tee, and again when he puts his tee in the ground.

 

I don't mind a guy asking in a match, but waiting until that point is not tolerable.

[HatsForBats]

With higher handicappers I ask all the time. Not because I am trying to game them it's just because I can't keep track off all of their strokes and I am hoping it is a high enough number that I can just concede their putt.

[SadTrombone]

It has happened to me before as well. What really bothered me was the frequency my opponent chose to ask the question. He must have asked on 2/3 of the greens we played that day.

 

I can see it happening a time or two during the match, especially if I was hacking it around, but if it was being used as a ploy to throw me off it didn't really work. Hell, I'm mentally fragile most days on the golf course (and elsewhere), but counting my strokes on a par 4 hole where I hit the fairway, then the green, about to hit my first putt didn't throw me off my game. It just made him seem like a jerk after the third time he asked...

 

To ask you 2 or 3 times in 18 holes does not seem like a big deal.

 

Assuming they played 18 holes, that would be 12 times.

 

(2/3)18=x

 

(.67)18=x

 

12=x

[cmb71]

It has happened to me before as well. What really bothered me was the frequency my opponent chose to ask the question. He must have asked on 2/3 of the greens we played that day.

 

I can see it happening a time or two during the match, especially if I was hacking it around, but if it was being used as a ploy to throw me off it didn't really work. Hell, I'm mentally fragile most days on the golf course (and elsewhere), but counting my strokes on a par 4 hole where I hit the fairway, then the green, about to hit my first putt didn't throw me off my game. It just made him seem like a jerk after the third time he asked...

 

To ask you 2 or 3 times in 18 holes does not seem like a big deal.

 

Assuming they played 18 holes, that would be 12 times.

 

(2/3)18=x

 

(.67)18=x

 

12=x

 

Tip of the cap to you, sir. Thank you for clarifying as I may not have been clear, and you are right on. My original post was to say that on two-thirds of the holes (not 2 or 3) he must have asked me about... it wasn't every hole. but certainly most.

 

We did not play 18 though. I finished him 2&1.

[SadTrombone]

It has happened to me before as well. What really bothered me was the frequency my opponent chose to ask the question. He must have asked on 2/3 of the greens we played that day.

 

I can see it happening a time or two during the match, especially if I was hacking it around, but if it was being used as a ploy to throw me off it didn't really work. Hell, I'm mentally fragile most days on the golf course (and elsewhere), but counting my strokes on a par 4 hole where I hit the fairway, then the green, about to hit my first putt didn't throw me off my game. It just made him seem like a jerk after the third time he asked...

 

To ask you 2 or 3 times in 18 holes does not seem like a big deal.

 

Assuming they played 18 holes, that would be 12 times.

 

(2/3)18=x

 

(.67)18=x

 

12=x

 

Tip of the cap to you, sir. Thank you for clarifying as I may not have been clear, and you are right on. My original post was to say that on two-thirds of the holes (not 2 or 3) he must have asked me about... it wasn't every hole. but certainly most.

 

We did not play 18 though. I finished him 2&1.

 

11.39 times then. He probably started to ask as you were closing him out for the 0.39 ;)

[bladehunter]

I understand it being within his right to do it ... But right when I'm about to putt he says "what's this for?" I mean literally about to take the putter back... I had already addressed the ball.

How about asking AFTER I stroke it ?? Either way, you get your answer before you play your next shot. Incidentally, the majority of the time he asked was when I was last to putt. So there wasn't another stroke for him to play.

I knew it was within his right... I've been playing for 40+ years I know the rules.

I know, I know ... play better and don't let it get to me. Blah blah blah

 

Total DB move there...

 

Agreed.

 

As an add, you are only obligated to give your score. It is your opponent's obligation to know if you stroke or not.

 

So after he asks, you only need to answer,"I'm putting for 4." You don't need to answer, "I'm putting for 4, net 3."

 

The OP's problem, as described just above, isn't an "unwritten rule" thing. It's more of an etiquette thing. It would have been more accurate to say, "My opponent kept talking to me after I had addressed the ball."

 

 

maybe this was the issue.. I find playing handicapped match play to be the most annoying thing to keep track of on earth... I mean i truly cannot keep up with how many holes a guy gets shots on and which holes they are, plus how many shots it took him to get to the green etc.. its liek a F-in algebra quiz on every hole....

[Halebopp]

maybe this was the issue.. I find playing handicapped match play to be the most annoying thing to keep track of on earth... I mean i truly cannot keep up with how many holes a guy gets shots on and which holes they are, plus how many shots it took him to get to the green etc.. its liek a F-in algebra quiz on every hole....

 

Why is it difficult to check your playing handicaps before the round, do a very simple substraction and, for example, circle the hole numbers where either of you gets strokes as per the hole handicap ratings? Falls into the very same category in difficultness as checking your marker has written down the correct score for you and then attesting your score to be correct with your signature.

[smeech8000]

maybe this was the issue.. I find playing handicapped match play to be the most annoying thing to keep track of on earth... I mean i truly cannot keep up with how many holes a guy gets shots on and which holes they are, plus how many shots it took him to get to the green etc.. its liek a F-in algebra quiz on every hole....

 

Why is it difficult to check your playing handicaps before the round, do a very simple subtraction and, for example, circle the hole numbers where either of you gets strokes as per the hole handicap ratings? Falls into the very same category in difficultness as checking your marker has written down the correct score for you and then attesting your score to be correct with your signature.

 

Not necessarily true - after a round of golf I can pretty easily recall every shot I hit and substantiate the hole scores written down by the marker if there is a discrepancy with my own marker strip on the card I'm keeping. This is because I am focused on my own game 100% and if I notice what my opponent is doing, great, but I'm not going to be watching him like a hawk to the detriment of my own focus. When you have to give an opponent upwards of four or five a side it gets tiresome to think, "Does he bang here? Well, I'm three here and he lays four net three... I think."

 

It's not so bad in a 1v1 match but when playing fourballs it gets way too busy for me.

 

But that's just me. And bladehunter, apparently. :derisive:

[cardoustie]

I can and will shut down any clown that is intentionally annoying

 

So many ways to pay back these mental midgets that think they are gamesmanship experts

[Halebopp]

maybe this was the issue.. I find playing handicapped match play to be the most annoying thing to keep track of on earth... I mean i truly cannot keep up with how many holes a guy gets shots on and which holes they are, plus how many shots it took him to get to the green etc.. its liek a F-in algebra quiz on every hole....

 

Why is it difficult to check your playing handicaps before the round, do a very simple subtraction and, for example, circle the hole numbers where either of you gets strokes as per the hole handicap ratings? Falls into the very same category in difficultness as checking your marker has written down the correct score for you and then attesting your score to be correct with your signature.

 

Not necessarily true - after a round of golf I can pretty easily recall every shot I hit and substantiate the hole scores written down by the marker if there is a discrepancy with my own marker strip on the card I'm keeping. This is because I am focused on my own game 100% and if I notice what my opponent is doing, great, but I'm not going to be watching him like a hawk to the detriment of my own focus. When you have to give an opponent upwards of four or five a side it gets tiresome to think, "Does he bang here? Well, I'm three here and he lays four net three... I think."

 

It's not so bad in a 1v1 match but when playing fourballs it gets way too busy for me.

 

But that's just me. And bladehunter, apparently. :derisive:

 

Why not just prepare your score card properly before the round whether it is a singles match or a fourball? Then, during the round all you need is quick glance at the card on the tee box to know whether someone is getting strokes on the hole. That's information I prefer to know before the start of the hole anyway as it affects my strategy for the hole starting from the tee box, not something I'd try to figure out on the green. Also, if you don't know how many strokes your opponent has taken, you can always ask. Nothing complicated about it in my opinion. Of course, you can make things complicated for yourself if you don't want to prepare yourself properly.

[smeech8000]

maybe this was the issue.. I find playing handicapped match play to be the most annoying thing to keep track of on earth... I mean i truly cannot keep up with how many holes a guy gets shots on and which holes they are, plus how many shots it took him to get to the green etc.. its liek a F-in algebra quiz on every hole....

 

Why is it difficult to check your playing handicaps before the round, do a very simple subtraction and, for example, circle the hole numbers where either of you gets strokes as per the hole handicap ratings? Falls into the very same category in difficultness as checking your marker has written down the correct score for you and then attesting your score to be correct with your signature.

 

Not necessarily true - after a round of golf I can pretty easily recall every shot I hit and substantiate the hole scores written down by the marker if there is a discrepancy with my own marker strip on the card I'm keeping. This is because I am focused on my own game 100% and if I notice what my opponent is doing, great, but I'm not going to be watching him like a hawk to the detriment of my own focus. When you have to give an opponent upwards of four or five a side it gets tiresome to think, "Does he bang here? Well, I'm three here and he lays four net three... I think."

 

It's not so bad in a 1v1 match but when playing fourballs it gets way too busy for me.

 

But that's just me. And bladehunter, apparently. :derisive:

 

Why not just prepare your score card properly before the round whether it is a singles match or a fourball? Then, during the round all you need is quick glance at the card on the tee box to know whether someone is getting strokes on the hole. That's information I prefer to know before the start of the hole anyway as it affects my strategy for the hole starting from the tee box, not something I'd try to figure out on the green. Also, if you don't know how many strokes your opponent has taken, you can always ask. Nothing complicated about it in my opinion. Of course, you can make things complicated for yourself if you don't want to prepare yourself properly.

 

My card is adequately prepared, I typically dot the upper-right hand corner of the players' holes where they stroke; I'm also aware of my opponents' obligation to give me correct information regarding number of strokes taken, however they are under no obligation to disclose if they stroke on the hole or not. Obviously it is as easy as cross-referencing their response with the marked scorecard, however if we're on the green and it is back on the steering wheel that is not very helpful.

 

I'd just rather concern myself with making a score and I find the best way to do that is not worry about what everyone lies, net, at every single point during the hole. I understand that some people do like to know this information and more power to them for being able to effectively focus on their own game as well. Personally, I have not yet run into a situation where I regretted a choice to play a certain shot or a putt that I or my partner have conceded because we were unaware of the match status.

[beachguy]

It has happened to me before as well. What really bothered me was the frequency my opponent chose to ask the question. He must have asked on 2/3 of the greens we played that day.

 

I can see it happening a time or two during the match, especially if I was hacking it around, but if it was being used as a ploy to throw me off it didn't really work. Hell, I'm mentally fragile most days on the golf course (and elsewhere), but counting my strokes on a par 4 hole where I hit the fairway, then the green, about to hit my first putt didn't throw me off my game. It just made him seem like a jerk after the third time he asked...

 

To ask you 2 or 3 times in 18 holes does not seem like a big deal.

Gamesmanship and it worked.

 

I would have started announcing what shot I was hitting before I hit it. If I was playing well, I'd keep doing it until he asked me to stop. If he was really being a dick about it, I'd keep doing it all the way till the end and make him putt everything out and I would ask him every shot what he was hitting while still announcing what I was doing. It would be a quick lesson learned for him.

 

Brilliant, especially the part about asking him every shot that he was hitting and making him putt out. There's even the outside chance that Mr. How Many Strokes would learn his lesson and chill with the annoying -- yet completely within the rules -- behavior.

 

In my mind, the unwritten rule on this is to ask only when you're not sure or when there is a good reason to, like when your opponent may have taken extra strokes. People who choose to play this way are more than welcome to do it, they just won't be in my group when I have a choice. Life is too short to spend time on the golf course with jerks.

 

One issue is that higher handicap players can be a bit tougher to keep track of as they are all over the place.

 

 

Yea that's the truth

 

 

But I've even had a blow up hole so I like to forget the number of strokes during the hole....that ptsd therapy kicks in

[Halebopp]

 

My card is adequately prepared, I typically dot the upper-right hand corner of the players' holes where they stroke; I'm also aware of my opponents' obligation to give me correct information regarding number of strokes taken, however they are under no obligation to disclose if they stroke on the hole or not. Obviously it is as easy as cross-referencing their response with the marked scorecard, however if we're on the green and it is back on the steering wheel that is not very helpful.

 

I'd just rather concern myself with making a score and I find the best way to do that is not worry about what everyone lies, net, at every single point during the hole. I understand that some people do like to know this information and more power to them for being able to effectively focus on their own game as well. Personally, I have not yet run into a situation where I regretted a choice to play a certain shot or a putt that I or my partner have conceded because we were unaware of the match status.

 

Oh, I got the idea you're (or Bladehunter possibly is?) actively tracking where everyone was standing at any point during a hole but found that very difficult to do. It's a whole different story that you want to concentrate on playing your own game, trying to shoot the best score you can and letting the dice fall where they may. I've got no issues with such an approach. What rubbed me slightly was the idea that it would be detrimentally difficult to follow the standing "shot by shot" if one wanted to do so. :friends:

 

Besides, if higher maths is required to figure out where a player stands, the chances are that player is already out of the hole. :D

[bladehunter]

 

My card is adequately prepared, I typically dot the upper-right hand corner of the players' holes where they stroke; I'm also aware of my opponents' obligation to give me correct information regarding number of strokes taken, however they are under no obligation to disclose if they stroke on the hole or not. Obviously it is as easy as cross-referencing their response with the marked scorecard, however if we're on the green and it is back on the steering wheel that is not very helpful.

 

I'd just rather concern myself with making a score and I find the best way to do that is not worry about what everyone lies, net, at every single point during the hole. I understand that some people do like to know this information and more power to them for being able to effectively focus on their own game as well. Personally, I have not yet run into a situation where I regretted a choice to play a certain shot or a putt that I or my partner have conceded because we were unaware of the match status.

 

Oh, I got the idea you're (or Bladehunter possibly is?) actively tracking where everyone was standing at any point during a hole but found that very difficult to do. It's a whole different story that you want to concentrate on playing your own game, trying to shoot the best score you can and letting the dice fall where they may. I've got no issues with such an approach. What rubbed me slightly was the idea that it would be detrimentally difficult to follow the standing "shot by shot" if one wanted to do so. :friends:

 

Besides, if higher maths is required to figure out where a player stands, the chances are that player is already out of the hole. :D

 

 

Yes. This is what I meant. Saying I'm in the fairway. Looking at 220 out to a par 5. My opponent just hit a bad layup and may not get on in 3.

 

But wait. He's a 21 handicap and probably gets strokes here. ( real scenario I've been through ). So I have to stop , check the card for how many strokes , then do the math for if he gets on in 3 or 4 and what will get him to birdie or par after strokes. Then decide whether it makes sense to go at it in 2 or layup for traditional birdie. Most times you are forced to go at it on 2 as birdie is only way to win hole.

 

 

All that takes me 3-4 minutes to decipher. And it's maddening. Especially when that 21 is really a 15 or so. Instead of thinking " ok par likely wins thishole and birdie surely will ". I have to think of 100 Math problems and scenarios and usually decide safe won't get it done.

[QEight]

All that takes me 3-4 minutes to decipher. And it's maddening. Especially when that 21 is really a 15 or so. Instead of thinking " ok par likely wins thishole and birdie surely will ". I have to think of 100 Math problems and scenarios and usually decide safe won't get it done.

 

3-4 minutes to calculate that? Ok, I can see the issue. But how many times a year you play match play against 21? If you play once a year, does it really matter.

[q-school]

You guys are too good at golf. I have enough trouble remembering my own score plus who all strokes in the hole. I usually ask someone their score only to concede it if it doesn't matter anymore.