Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[oldschoolrocker]

The jury is still out on the sonic devices, with regards to our mole problem, but, so far the initial results are looking very positive.

[BNGL]

The jury is still out on the sonic devices, with regards to our mole problem, but, so far the initial results are looking very positive.

 

That’s good! Might have to give them a try if they work for y’all

[mallrat]

If I may chime in on the Chambers issue.

 

My old Super went to school and is good friends with the super there at that time. As early as 4 years before the open he was advocating for letting the greens go all Poa and managing them as such but the USGA said no. They then came back and made them replace the greens 2 years before the Open and had them hand pulling Poa heads. Well the fescue is naturally so thin that it never filled back in and you all saw what happened. He was then fired very shortly after the Open because of the greens.

 

Fast forward and they are now letting the greens go all Poa.

[caniac6]

The Golf Channel replayed a conversation between Geoff Shackleford and David Fay where David Fay blamed the problems at the 2004 US Open on a rogue greenskeeper that rolled #7 in the middle of the night. Shackleford thought it was so crazy, he asked him if Carl Spackler did it. It seems the USGA can come up with a nutty excuse for everything. Yesterday, Mike Davis said he didn't think the wind would blow. The wind always seems to blow more in the afternoon, and being close to the ocean, that would seem to be a given. Unfortunately, the USGA seems to get more attention, and for all the wrong reasons, than the players at the US Open. Just kind of wanted to get your thoughts.

[BNGL]

The Golf Channel replayed a conversation between Geoff Shackleford and David Fay where David Fay blamed the problems at the 2004 US Open on a rogue greenskeeper that rolled #7 in the middle of the night. Shackleford thought it was so crazy, he asked him if Carl Spackler did it. It seems the USGA can come up with a nutty excuse for everything. Yesterday, Mike Davis said he didn't think the wind would blow. The wind always seems to blow more in the afternoon, and being close to the ocean, that would seem to be a given. Unfortunately, the USGA seems to get more attention, and for all the wrong reasons, than the players at the US Open. Just kind of wanted to get your thoughts.

 

My club in florida is right on the ocean. As far as the rogue greenskeeper, I have never met David Fay, but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Think about that, at a US Open you have probably close to 100 volunteers, highly qualified volunteers the supers of other US Open host sites (because if you want a US Open or are hosting a US Open soon you need to get your hands dirty as early as possible because it is unlike any event setup). So not only was one of the greenskeepers knowledgeable about his job, but those around him all know what is going on, and seeing someone on a greens roller where he isn't supposed to be is nearly impossible in my opinion. I stress to my guys, don't mow or roll this area, and if I do it at a playground for billionaires the grounds staff of the club hosting the National Championship would definitely do it. That being said, a couple of rolls is not getting you much speed at all, especially at that level where the green speeds are already fast and firm. All it would do is maintain that speed longer into the day

 

I have met Mike a few times, he's a dope and a liar. That is as simple as I can say it. When I stress my greens like they do on TV, (we have two big events) I send out 6 hoses in the afternoons around 1230ish and it keeps the conditions uniform through out the day, and a fair, fast and firm, surface

[raynorfan1]

The Golf Channel replayed a conversation between Geoff Shackleford and David Fay where David Fay blamed the problems at the 2004 US Open on a rogue greenskeeper that rolled #7 in the middle of the night. Shackleford thought it was so crazy, he asked him if Carl Spackler did it. It seems the USGA can come up with a nutty excuse for everything. Yesterday, Mike Davis said he didn't think the wind would blow. The wind always seems to blow more in the afternoon, and being close to the ocean, that would seem to be a given. Unfortunately, the USGA seems to get more attention, and for all the wrong reasons, than the players at the US Open. Just kind of wanted to get your thoughts.

 

My club in florida is right on the ocean. As far as the rogue greenskeeper, I have never met David Fay, but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Think about that, at a US Open you have probably close to 100 volunteers, highly qualified volunteers the supers of other US Open host sites (because if you want a US Open or are hosting a US Open soon you need to get your hands dirty as early as possible because it is unlike any event setup). So not only was one of the greenskeepers knowledgeable about his job, but those around him all know what is going on, and seeing someone on a greens roller where he isn't supposed to be is nearly impossible in my opinion. I stress to my guys, don't mow or roll this area, and if I do it at a playground for billionaires the grounds staff of the club hosting the National Championship would definitely do it. That being said, a couple of rolls is not getting you much speed at all, especially at that level where the green speeds are already fast and firm. All it would do is maintain that speed longer into the day

 

I have met Mike a few times, he's a dope and a liar. That is as simple as I can say it. When I stress my greens like they do on TV, (we have two big events) I send out 6 hoses in the afternoons around 1230ish and it keeps the conditions uniform through out the day, and a fair, fast and firm, surface

 

Agree that the “rogue” greens keeper theory is absurd. I could imagine that somebody somewhere decided they didn’t need to roll #7, and that message didn’t make it down to the crew doing the rolling. But that’s just more incompetent management...

 

I think the USGA really painted themselves into a corner post 2004 when they declared that watering the greens mid round was a grave error and embarrassment that would never happen again. They should be sitting on every green with a hose, roller, and mower to do whatever necessary during the day to keep the green as close to the spec that they want as possible.

 

Poa seed heads starting? Mow ‘em. Passing shower comes through? Roll ‘em.

[BNGL]

The Golf Channel replayed a conversation between Geoff Shackleford and David Fay where David Fay blamed the problems at the 2004 US Open on a rogue greenskeeper that rolled #7 in the middle of the night. Shackleford thought it was so crazy, he asked him if Carl Spackler did it. It seems the USGA can come up with a nutty excuse for everything. Yesterday, Mike Davis said he didn't think the wind would blow. The wind always seems to blow more in the afternoon, and being close to the ocean, that would seem to be a given. Unfortunately, the USGA seems to get more attention, and for all the wrong reasons, than the players at the US Open. Just kind of wanted to get your thoughts.

 

My club in florida is right on the ocean. As far as the rogue greenskeeper, I have never met David Fay, but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Think about that, at a US Open you have probably close to 100 volunteers, highly qualified volunteers the supers of other US Open host sites (because if you want a US Open or are hosting a US Open soon you need to get your hands dirty as early as possible because it is unlike any event setup). So not only was one of the greenskeepers knowledgeable about his job, but those around him all know what is going on, and seeing someone on a greens roller where he isn't supposed to be is nearly impossible in my opinion. I stress to my guys, don't mow or roll this area, and if I do it at a playground for billionaires the grounds staff of the club hosting the National Championship would definitely do it. That being said, a couple of rolls is not getting you much speed at all, especially at that level where the green speeds are already fast and firm. All it would do is maintain that speed longer into the day

 

I have met Mike a few times, he's a dope and a liar. That is as simple as I can say it. When I stress my greens like they do on TV, (we have two big events) I send out 6 hoses in the afternoons around 1230ish and it keeps the conditions uniform through out the day, and a fair, fast and firm, surface

 

Agree that the "rogue" greens keeper theory is absurd. I could imagine that somebody somewhere decided they didn't need to roll #7, and that message didn't make it down to the crew doing the rolling. But that's just more incompetent management...

 

I think the USGA really painted themselves into a corner post 2004 when they declared that watering the greens mid round was a grave error and embarrassment that would never happen again. They should be sitting on every green with a hose, roller, and mower to do whatever necessary during the day to keep the green as close to the spec that they want as possible.

 

Poa seed heads starting? Mow 'em. Passing shower comes through? Roll 'em.

 

1000 percent agree, it absolutely reflects more poorly on the USGA if that is true. They micromanage every detail, and if that story is true....regardless they messed it up either way.

[Naptime]

Are links courses maintained in a fundamentally differently manner than non-links courses? Or is it basically the same techniques and technologies with a bit longer rough?

[ltjackson]

What's your opinion on houses built on the fairways edge? Florida resident myself and while my normal track doesn't have any housing lots, I have played on both public and semi-private courses with houses and fenced in back yards 10 paces away from the fairway.

 

Any negative effects from their yards trickle onto the course?

[BNGL]

Are links courses maintained in a fundamentally differently manner than non-links courses? Or is it basically the same techniques and technologies with a bit longer rough?

 

Grass is grass, the things that changes are the environmental factors. It’ll still need around 13 pounds of N per year, or adversely react to 40 fluid oz of primo. Biggest difference I think is expectations of course conditions, I checked the temperature over there and saw 90’s if that continues expect something Liverpool in 06(?), a firm fast bouncing kind of golf. My club is closed for the summer, but I’d lose my job if I let it get brown and baked like a British Open course.

 

So I don’t think it would be dramatically different than a parkland layout. It just comes with knowing your property, the areas that dry out or are deficient in nutrients.

[mallrat]

If I may chime in, a lot of the course conditions for links are up to the Supers and owners. Many courses with fescue are maintained similarly but being fescue, brown is perfectly healthy (somewhat).

 

But the way they are maintained is dependent on those in charge. How do they want the bunkers, bunker faces, surrounds maintained. Also from my understanding there is a technique to getting the knee high fescue and keeping it playable. We mow it once in the early season when it is starting to spring to life and then towards the end of the season. If you just let it go is when it gets so thick it’s unplayable.

 

But as BNGL said, this is the USA and brown is bad.

[spud3]

I wish we had more courses that let their fairways bake out. It's fun to play on those...

[mallrat]

It’s going to take owners with balls and a Super who isn’t afraid of losing his job, IMO. I like them also.

 

I think we will start seeing it here and there with Pinehursf and I believe Trinity Forest. I actually want to see kind of a reverse USA course with baked out fairways and healthy lush rough, nothing overly deep but a good 1.5 - 2” and very green, then a light IR/step cut and some healthy turf but baked out fairways. I think the problem is there is a balance there that is a VERY fine line.

[spud3]

I guess my question would be along the lines of Naptime's (great moniker, BTW) - how does a course maintain that baked out condition while still keeping the surface playable? When my yard goes brown in the summer, there's a certain amount of die-off. I would think any club strikes/divots to turf in that state would not re-grow until the fall rains greened things up again.

[Dancin]

I guess my question would be along the lines of Naptime's (great moniker, BTW) - how does a course maintain that baked out condition while still keeping the surface playable? When my yard goes brown in the summer, there's a certain amount of die-off. I would think any club strikes/divots to turf in that state would not re-grow until the fall rains greened things up again.

 

Most links courses are fescue grass sitting on top of 30 feet or more of sand with roots shooting down multiple feet so they have a very healthy root structure vs whatever grass variety is in your yard that likely has a root structure measured in inches due to poor soil beneath the inch or two of top soil the builder bothered to put down

[raynorfan1]

I guess my question would be along the lines of Naptime's (great moniker, BTW) - how does a course maintain that baked out condition while still keeping the surface playable? When my yard goes brown in the summer, there's a certain amount of die-off. I would think any club strikes/divots to turf in that state would not re-grow until the fall rains greened things up again.

 

Real "firm and fast" conditions can't co-exist with American golf. Full stop.

 

Most (Northern) courses have fairways and roughs that are a mix of poa, bentgrass, and rye. If you let your super "just bake them out, like Scotland!", the grass is dead and not coming back. If you 'lose' bentgrass or poa (i.e. let it brown out), it's dead and not coming back.

 

UK links courses are mostly fescue, with some bent in the mix. The fine fescue in play on links courses can brown out and go dormant - and then bounce right back when the water comes.

 

So why not just regrass American courses with fescue? Fescue has pretty specific climate / soil conditions required to thrive - a cool, wet climate with well drained soil. Somewhere like Bandon Dunes is perfect. Most of the rest of the country is too hot and humid in the summer for fescue to survive, and the soil (and subsoil) won't support the roots. On top of that, dormant fescue has a really hard time with cart traffic. Fine at Bandon (walking only); perfect for the UK (where carts basically don't exist); impossible for 99.9% of US courses (where carts are an integral part of the experience).

 

Firm and fast is fun...but it's just something we can't have here.

[mallrat]

Sorry and not to contradict you but I live in a VERY dry climate 8 months a year and the couple courses that have used fescue, well it’s doing very well. Except for the greens which the Poa is taking over.

 

Also, from my understanding you can almost always water Poa out of trouble. At least according to the Supers at my last course

[BNGL]

http://theaposition.com/teemoore/golf/personalities/1707/open-championship-q-amp-a-with-ken-nice-bandon-dunes

 

Great Q and A with Ken Nice of Bandon Dunes.

[spud3]

Great read! Thanks for that!

[Dancin]

Sorry and not to contradict you but I live in a VERY dry climate 8 months a year and the couple courses that have used fescue, well it's doing very well. Except for the greens which the Poa is taking over.

 

Also, from my understanding you can almost always water Poa out of trouble. At least according to the Supers at my last course

 

Agree. At fairway height, established fescue has no problems even in 100 degree heat as long as carts aren't allowed on it. At green height it needs the Scottish weather.

[chauchilam]

As we see the costs of playing golf go up, what are courses and superintendents trying to focus on to keep costs low and customers playing while ensuring the integrity of the grounds?

[BNGL]

As we see the costs of playing golf go up, what are courses and superintendents trying to focus on to keep costs low and customers playing while ensuring the integrity of the grounds?

 

That is the million dollar question my friend. And our friends at the USGA have come up with some pretty good solutions, after talking to supervisors and working in the industry themselves. Here is the link that I would say is pretty solid. Just from having looked at the tabs, I can say that I have done almost all of those at one point or another.

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/usga-sustainability/budget-labor.html

 

For the record, I have great relationships with many at the USGA Green Section they come do a site visit regularly and have even done some experimenting on our greens (with our permission). These guys know their stuff and are a joy to work with.

[dhc1]

Is there a way to measure fairway firmness to get "fast and firm" so that balls that land on the skirts bounce onto greens? I read something about clegg hammers but don't much about them.

[BNGL]

Is there a way to measure fairway firmness to get "fast and firm" so that balls that land on the skirts bounce onto greens? I read something about clegg hammers but don't much about them.

 

Yes, they are called TruFirm meters. Typically they are used on greens, but they are being used in bunkers and on tees, so I see no reason that they could not be used on fairways, although I do not know of anyone recording fairway measurements. The only time I ever worried about it, was when the tour was coming around typically about 6-10 weeks before the event.

 

 

Great video by OSU explaining what Trufirm meters and how they're used. Good question.

[ebrasmus21]

BNGL -

 

I live in central CA. Summers here are brutal (we are currently at something like 25+ consecutive days over 100*).

 

My club has Bermuda fairways and bent greens. Our super keeps the course SUPER wet during the summer. The fairways and greens are insanely wet. Mud balls in the fairway during July? Greens get pitchmarks from short chips and sand shots. A full-wedge makes a crater in the green.

 

How does bent handle 100* weather? Also, does Bermuda really need that much water?

[Schley]

Thanks bngl for all the insights.

[BNGL]

BNGL -

 

I live in central CA. Summers here are brutal (we are currently at something like 25+ consecutive days over 100*).

 

My club has Bermuda fairways and bent greens. Our super keeps the course SUPER wet during the summer. The fairways and greens are insanely wet. Mud balls in the fairway during July? Greens get pitchmarks from short chips and sand shots. A full-wedge makes a crater in the green.

 

How does bent handle 100* weather? Also, does Bermuda really need that much water?

 

Bent does not like heat....period. It much prefers the cool and moist European climate it originated from. That being said, daytime temperatures are an important variable, but he night time temps, and soil temps are far more important. You can have sustained temperatures above 90 during the day, as long as the nighttime temps drop to mid 60s and the soil temps are in the 50-60 degree range, you can manage the stress. BUT courses are pressured to present exceptional playing conditions, which often revolves around green speed and roll, so the greens are often still cut down to play nicely. That low height of cut, combined with high temperatures, and traffic from golf players (however minimal) all creates a high stress environment for turf.

 

Bermuda is far more tolerant of high temperatures. Bermuda originated in the savannah of Africa, so it is adapted to hot environments. It is far easier to manage wet spots, than dry spots. At least in my opinion, although that goes against the brown is beautiful initiative that I believe in and should be applied more often, but I do think a club would lose significant business if golf players saw brown out there. So I think some make the decision that I will flood it and keep it green, because of pressures from management or customers.

[BNGL]

Thanks bngl for all the insights.

 

You're welcome. Just trying to give people better a understanding of what goes on.

[ebrasmus21]

BNGL -

 

I live in central CA. Summers here are brutal (we are currently at something like 25+ consecutive days over 100*).

 

My club has Bermuda fairways and bent greens. Our super keeps the course SUPER wet during the summer. The fairways and greens are insanely wet. Mud balls in the fairway during July? Greens get pitchmarks from short chips and sand shots. A full-wedge makes a crater in the green.

 

How does bent handle 100* weather? Also, does Bermuda really need that much water?

 

Bent does not like heat....period. It much prefers the cool and moist European climate it originated from. That being said, daytime temperatures are an important variable, but he night time temps, and soil temps are far more important. You can have sustained temperatures above 90 during the day, as long as the nighttime temps drop to mid 60s and the soil temps are in the 50-60 degree range, you can manage the stress. BUT courses are pressured to present exceptional playing conditions, which often revolves around green speed and roll, so the greens are often still cut down to play nicely. That low height of cut, combined with high temperatures, and traffic from golf players (however minimal) all creates a high stress environment for turf.

 

Bermuda is far more tolerant of high temperatures. Bermuda originated in the savannah of Africa, so it is adapted to hot environments. It is far easier to manage wet spots, than dry spots. At least in my opinion, although that goes against the brown is beautiful initiative that I believe in and should be applied more often, but I do think a club would lose significant business if golf players saw brown out there. So I think some make the decision that I will flood it and keep it green, because of pressures from management or customers.

 

Very interesting, thanks for the perspective!

[Carl Spackler3]

Good Afternoon GolfWRX,

 

As the title says hit me up with any questions that you may have in relation to golf course agronomy, or why certain practices are done at certain times. Whatever the question you have, if I don't have the answer I will provide it for you.

 

Fairways, Greens, and remember to repair your ball marks!

with the exception of cutting greens for obvious reasons, why are cutting crews not cutting from18 to 1 rather than 1 to 18. Back to front will run into constantly different groups, I was followed on 12 of 18 holes by a tee cutter and trap trike