Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[BNGL]

OK, i've got one for ya. i go to my brother in laws course to play. i enjoy walking and so does he. i use a push cart. i go to the pro shop and pay for my round. pro asks if i'm riding and i tell him i'm walking with my push cart. he tells me i can't use my push cart that i have to rent one of there's. i politely tell him that i have no problem paying their rental fee but would like to use mine. he tells me no way, your cart has grass from other courses on it and that can contaminate their course. at this point i am puzzled and look at him at asked if i can wear my shoes cause my shoes have grass on them. he looks at me and says those are the rules so i just paid for the cart and road. but really, grass from another course?

 

He’s full of s***. Just looking for extra revenue. I mean on the surface his claim is valid, but is his course in a dome? Completely isolated and controlled from the surrounding area? I don’t worry about that, you’re going to get far more contamination from seeds blown by the wind and dropped by animals that poop on the property than by a golfers push cart or golf spikes.

 

I only worry about it one time, when we overseed the tee tops at our practice facility. And even then it’s not the shoes (lest they’re wet) it’s the spreaders. Well use 6 rotary and two drop spreaders that will be thoroughly cleaned before heading back on to the course, where we don’t overseed.

[Destroyer]

well i figured that. i have no problem a golf course trying to make money. i would have been happy to pay the rental fee and just use my push cart. you can call it a trail fee or what ever. just don't give some stupid reason.

[BNGL]

well i figured that. i have no problem a golf course trying to make money. i would have been happy to pay the rental fee and just use my push cart. you can call it a trail fee or what ever. just don't give some stupid reason.

 

Yeah I’m with you totally, I have zero tolerance for stupidity which unfortunately is becoming more and more common. Just be straight up, “Hey even if you bring your own cart, you still have to pay our fee to use your cart it’s our trail fee.”

 

[augustgolf]

I actually can see the point that this golf course is trying to make.

 

And, BNGL, I also understand your position.

 

Many a friend that is a superintendent complains about how, after spending $$$ to re-do their greens/fairways/tees...whatever...that people coming from other courses that have poa contamination in a major fashion, come onto the course that has been re-done to eliminate poa...and, here it comes from an outside source.

 

However, like you state - it's gonna come onto a course some how, some way, any ways

 

In your Florida situation - summer heat will take it out. In cool season grasses, it is a much larger problem.

 

FWIW - understanding both sides, it is a pretty ****** move to have happen what happened. Too much drama.

[mallrat]

BNGL, what kind of experience do you have w/ Poa?

 

I ask because I hate watching golf coverage and hearing the commentators go on and on about how poor Poa is, how uneven it rolls, etc., etc. Maybe it comes from living in a place where Poa is the norm or playing some courses where their Poa is better than some of the bent greens i’ve played. Maybe they don’t get that not all Poa produces seed heads?

 

Just curious about your take on it and I feel bad for the Supers that kill themselves to get their courses ready and then have these idiots on TV constantly degrade the course.

[BNGL]

Other than eliminating it, none. I’ve had bermuda, zoysia, and paspalum.

 

TV announcers have to say something. I’ve spoken to Nick Faldo and Dottie Pepper about stuff like that. The issue with poa on greens is that it can be great, think Oakmont, or suck like the mottled Pebble Beach look (it’s because there’s a bunch of different varieties blended together).

 

Funny thing about events, I’ve set them up, there’s not really any growth from the plant on the greens. You could collect the clippings from the morning mow (every greens mower PG, CG, 1-18) and not have enough grass in it to fill a coke can. It’s just not growing. Can the poa green be bumpy? Absolutely they can be but it ain’t from growth of the plant. It’s more likely spike marks and ball marks.

[mallrat]

Other than eliminating it, none. I’ve had bermuda, zoysia, and paspalum.

 

TV announcers have to say something. I’ve spoken to Nick Faldo and Dottie Pepper about stuff like that. The issue with poa on greens is that it can be great, think Oakmont, or suck like the mottled Pebble Beach look (it’s because there’s a bunch of different varieties blended together).

 

Funny thing about events, I’ve set them up, there’s not really any growth from the plant on the greens. You could collect the clippings from the morning mow (every greens mower PG, CG, 1-18) and not have enough grass in it to fill a coke can. It’s just not growing. Can the poa green be bumpy? Absolutely they can be but it ain’t from growth of the plant. It’s more likely spike marks and ball marks.

 

Funny you say that about the varietals, 1 of the guys on our landscape crew was a super for 25 years and he was explaining that to me. He was also saying the goal is to get the varietals to make the transition from a perennial to an annual, which he was saying Poa will do on its own over time. He said once it goes annual it will stop producing a seed head.

 

Fascinating stuff to me.

[BNGL]

Other than eliminating it, none. Ive had bermuda, zoysia, and paspalum.

 

TV announcers have to say something. Ive spoken to Nick Faldo and Dottie Pepper about stuff like that. The issue with poa on greens is that it can be great, think Oakmont, or suck like the mottled Pebble Beach look (its because theres a bunch of different varieties blended together).

 

Funny thing about events, Ive set them up, theres not really any growth from the plant on the greens. You could collect the clippings from the morning mow (every greens mower PG, CG, 1-18) and not have enough grass in it to fill a coke can. Its just not growing. Can the poa green be bumpy? Absolutely they can be but it aint from growth of the plant. Its more likely spike marks and ball marks.

 

Funny you say that about the varietals, 1 of the guys on our landscape crew was a super for 25 years and he was explaining that to me. He was also saying the goal is to get the varietals to make the transition from a perennial to an annual, which he was saying Poa will do on its own over time. He said once it goes annual it will stop producing a seed head.

 

Fascinating stuff to me.

 

Hmm I haven’t heard that, so I’ll definitely have to look into that.

 

I’ve never classified poa as either annual or perennial (Annual just means it has to come back from a seed). There’s a few strains of poa that are true annuals, and some that are true perennials then there’s everything else. That’s what makes the bumps on television.

 

Personally annuals are far easier to control from a chemical standpoint because I can prevent germination from occurring with a properly timed application of a pre emergent. But since poa can produce seed all year I have to account for when the most opportune times are which would be spring time, so an effective plan would be to apply pre emergents and PGRs in the early fall (late August early September I’ve seen literature that reports control to nearly 100 percent; 91 and 99 respectively) to hopefully stymie the growth of the plant enough to stop seed production.

[Dancin]

BNGL -

I recently got to play Country Club of Orlando and was amazed at how it played fast and firm and the ground game was definitely an option, but due to all the rain this year in Orlando it was looking really green too. Kind of the best of everything. They no longer overseed in the winter which I'm sure really helps, but I'm wondering why more Florida courses don't go down this path when renovating? The renovation Ron Forse did of this old Ross course has really brought this course back to the top. It felt like playing a course in North Carolina rather than a typical Florida course.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't have a sand base or anything different in the middle of Orlando vs other parts of Florida, so I don't understand why other clubs couldn't do this and make their fairways play similar.

[BNGL]

BNGL -

I recently got to play Country Club of Orlando and was amazed at how it played fast and firm and the ground game was definitely an option, but due to all the rain this year in Orlando it was looking really green too. Kind of the best of everything. They no longer overseed in the winter which I'm sure really helps, but I'm wondering why more Florida courses don't go down this path when renovating? The renovation Ron Forse did of this old Ross course has really brought this course back to the top. It felt like playing a course in North Carolina rather than a typical Florida course.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't have a sand base or anything different in the middle of Orlando vs other parts of Florida, so I don't understand why other clubs couldn't do this and make their fairways play similar.

 

What path?

[augustgolf]

BNGL -

I recently got to play Country Club of Orlando and was amazed at how it played fast and firm and the ground game was definitely an option, but due to all the rain this year in Orlando it was looking really green too. Kind of the best of everything. They no longer overseed in the winter which I'm sure really helps, but I'm wondering why more Florida courses don't go down this path when renovating? The renovation Ron Forse did of this old Ross course has really brought this course back to the top. It felt like playing a course in North Carolina rather than a typical Florida course.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't have a sand base or anything different in the middle of Orlando vs other parts of Florida, so I don't understand why other clubs couldn't do this and make their fairways play similar.

 

What path?

 

 

[Baitkiller]

Pocket knife (small) for fixing pitch marks?

Yea or nae

[BNGL]

Pocket knife (small) for fixing pitch marks?

Yea or nae

 

Pocket knife? I haven’t seen that. I’d say it’s better than nothing but I’d think you’d potentially shear a lot of the roots when you’d insert the knife into the profile. Which will leave a nice dead spot that will require lots of time to heal.

 

Just remember to push from the outside towards the center never pull up.

[hurley999s]

BNGL, first thanks for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge. It’s been very informative reading through this thread.

 

I have a couple questions - one simple and another a bit vague. Easy one first.

 

My course in NJ is going through a massive renovation (privately acquired 2 years ago), and one of the big changes they’re working on is converting the greens from Pencross Bent to 007. I understand from them it’s a thinner blade, more resilient to summer heat and disease, should play overall as a truer putting surface. Seems exciting, and just curious about your opinion of 007 overall.

 

Second, there’s a meeting in a month or so for the board to review progress and overall plans and I’d like your opinion on maybe a couple questions to ask / topics to bring up that 1) express interest in the changes going on and acknowledge the tremendous work of the staff to date, but 2) doesn’t come across as elementary. Basically if you were holding a presentation to members with your GM and pro, what kinds of questions would you like to hear that would be thought provoking or lead to good discussion?

 

Bonus - another recent bit of info, a duo of shapers were recently brought aboard who did Mammoth Dunes. Sounds really cool from what I’ve read about them, and on the surface level I can definitely see the value in shapers, but being really naive to the technical details of course architecture and maintenance, I’m interested in your thoughts on shapers in general and if you’re familiar with the two I referenced.

 

Thanks again for your insight!

[Dancin]

BNGL -

I recently got to play Country Club of Orlando and was amazed at how it played fast and firm and the ground game was definitely an option, but due to all the rain this year in Orlando it was looking really green too. Kind of the best of everything. They no longer overseed in the winter which I'm sure really helps, but I'm wondering why more Florida courses don't go down this path when renovating? The renovation Ron Forse did of this old Ross course has really brought this course back to the top. It felt like playing a course in North Carolina rather than a typical Florida course.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't have a sand base or anything different in the middle of Orlando vs other parts of Florida, so I don't understand why other clubs couldn't do this and make their fairways play similar.

 

What path?

 

Fast and firm fairways. If they can do it at CCO and get conditions that look good, why don't others? Most Florida courses I've played are overseeded and the ball doesn't roll in the fairways. I figured they overseeded for looks in winter but CCO looked great without it.

[BNGL]

BNGL, first thanks for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge. It’s been very informative reading through this thread.

 

I have a couple questions - one simple and another a bit vague. Easy one first.

 

My course in NJ is going through a massive renovation (privately acquired 2 years ago), and one of the big changes they’re working on is converting the greens from Pencross Bent to 007. I understand from them it’s a thinner blade, more resilient to summer heat and disease, should play overall as a truer putting surface. Seems exciting, and just curious about your opinion of 007 overall.

 

Second, there’s a meeting in a month or so for the board to review progress and overall plans and I’d like your opinion on maybe a couple questions to ask / topics to bring up that 1) express interest in the changes going on and acknowledge the tremendous work of the staff to date, but 2) doesn’t come across as elementary. Basically if you were holding a presentation to members with your GM and pro, what kinds of questions would you like to hear that would be thought provoking or lead to good discussion?

 

Bonus - another recent bit of info, a duo of shapers were recently brought aboard who did Mammoth Dunes. Sounds really cool from what I’ve read about them, and on the surface level I can definitely see the value in shapers, but being really naive to the technical details of course architecture and maintenance, I’m interested in your thoughts on shapers in general and if you’re familiar with the two I referenced.

 

Thanks again for your insight!

 

Personally I have not done too much work with bent grasses, but I do remember reading about that when it was first developed and being used. Just from what I have perused this morning it sounds great. You’ll have increased heat tolerance, finer leaf blade, increased salt and disease tolerance. Those are four fine qualities right there, the finer leaf blade will allow for better playability, increased heat tolerance will relieve some stress for your crew, salt tolerance is great especially as water quality for golf courses becomes worse and worse, and disease resistance will help save the club money on chemical (as long as the plant stays healthy it can ward off many fungi and diseases on its own).

 

No question is ever elementary or too simple, at least in my opinion, particularly if you’re part of a membership that is flipping the bill. When I was younger someone asked me why I ask dumb questions, I responded because someone else might have the same question I do but is too timid to ask it for fear of being called dumb, I’ve been called way worse that in my time lol!

 

Im not familiar with those two shapers in particular but I have worked with some in Orlando and where I am now. Those guys are absolutely fantastic. I can look at a blueprint and tell you what it’s supposed to look like, but these guys can take a machine and produce it. There position has evolved over the years, it used to be a defined line of golf course designer and shaper, now its transitioned between designer and shaper making things work the best way possible if that makes sense.

These guys are probably the most important person on any construction site because they go beyond just shaping and grading they must consider drainage patterns and be proficient in quite a few machines, more than a bobcat or skid steer.

 

https://www.linksmagazine.com/untold-story-golf-course-shapers/

 

Great article in Links Magazine about Golf Course Shapers.

[hurley999s]

Very cool. Appreciate the response! That link was a great read - very eye opening for me as I’m just a golfer and before reading through this thread just had a very minimal understanding of your world and that of the architects/designers. I can see myself getting entirely more into this stuff than I should considering it’s not my profession!

[Baitkiller]

Pocket knife (small) for fixing pitch marks?

Yea or nae

 

Pocket knife? I haven’t seen that. I’d say it’s better than nothing but I’d think you’d potentially shear a lot of the roots when you’d insert the knife into the profile. Which will leave a nice dead spot that will require lots of time to heal.

 

Just remember to push from the outside towards the center never pull up.

 

I have a good buddy who is the super at a local private club and he pretty much said the same thing. "better than nothing" was his quote. See, if I have pants on, my knife is in my pocket (clipped onto). Its always there and reaching for it is as second nature as scratching my nuts. I try to carry a fork tool but I sometimes forget it. using a Tee is cumbersome.

Thank you for the reply.

[mallrat]

I think they actually make a clip on- flip out fork tool.

[Baitkiller]

Of course they do silly.

 

 

And I would lose that thing too, or simply forget to take it out after a round. Then it hits the night table, wife "puts it away". Next round I'm back to square one. My pocket knife? It goes from pocket to pocket when I get dressed every single day 365 a year without fail. I would have a breakdown if I left it a home. We are attached at the hip as they say....(rim shot) . So you see, I have something with me at all times guaranteed that may or may not do the trick. I have not used it yet for pitch marks, just use tees or a tool if I remembered it that day or borrow somebodies. Just thought I would find out if the idea was as bad as I had originally thought or not and here we have the guy to ask. Seems like its not a hanging offense after all. Rest at ease, Ill still try to keep several tools in the bag.

[BNGL]

BNGL -

I recently got to play Country Club of Orlando and was amazed at how it played fast and firm and the ground game was definitely an option, but due to all the rain this year in Orlando it was looking really green too. Kind of the best of everything. They no longer overseed in the winter which I'm sure really helps, but I'm wondering why more Florida courses don't go down this path when renovating? The renovation Ron Forse did of this old Ross course has really brought this course back to the top. It felt like playing a course in North Carolina rather than a typical Florida course.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't have a sand base or anything different in the middle of Orlando vs other parts of Florida, so I don't understand why other clubs couldn't do this and make their fairways play similar.

 

What path?

 

Fast and firm fairways. If they can do it at CCO and get conditions that look good, why don't others? Most Florida courses I've played are overseeded and the ball doesn't roll in the fairways. I figured they overseeded for looks in winter but CCO looked great without it.

 

Well there’s a couple things to consider about CCO or Interlachen compared to Falcons Fire or Shingle Creek. CCO is a private members golf club, not really meant to be used as a part of a resort or by many guests (although they do let out some non member play if I remember correctly particularly in the summer time), so playability is stressed more than aesthetics. When I was at Falcons Fire we overseeded every year, that was our thing, wall to wall and burn the stripes into the turf. We attracted a lot of golfers from the cold white north with our thick deep dark green grass.

 

Country Club of Orlando doesn’t have to appeal to tourists, and winter time is the perfect time in Florida to firm things up with dormant turf. When you overseed and it pops that turf requires far more inputs; water feet and chem to be maintained so it typically plays softer. Dormant turf isn’t dead it just isn’t utilizing much energy so it’s inputs are naturally less resulting in firmer bouncier conditions.

 

The reason it’s so green is the temperatures are abnormally high for this time of year. So the turf is photosynthesizing and growing just like in summer time, but it’s still cool enough and dry enough to be firm.

 

The one club that I wish would do that is Grand Cypress with their New Course. It’s a terrific I idea and well executed but not really replicating links golf in my opinion I have played it several times and it’s far too green! I mentioned that to the director once when it first opened and he said that he thought the same but was worried people wouldnt pay the rate to play or rate it highly if it was properly maintained as a links golf course.

 

 

 

 

[Dancin]

The one club that I wish would do that is Grand Cypress with their New Course. It’s a terrific I idea and well executed but not really replicating links golf in my opinion I have played it several times and it’s far too green! I mentioned that to the director once when it first opened and he said that he thought the same but was worried people wouldnt pay the rate to play or rate it highly if it was properly maintained as a links golf course.

 

Completely agree. That course could be so good if they let it play like a real links course. There's nothing more annoying than a course with greens that look like they should accept running shots and then to see your ball grab and stop in the approach when you actually try the shot.

[BNGL]

The one club that I wish would do that is Grand Cypress with their New Course. It’s a terrific I idea and well executed but not really replicating links golf in my opinion I have played it several times and it’s far too green! I mentioned that to the director once when it first opened and he said that he thought the same but was worried people wouldnt pay the rate to play or rate it highly if it was properly maintained as a links golf course.

 

Completely agree. That course could be so good if they let it play like a real links course. There's nothing more annoying than a course with greens that look like they should accept running shots and then to see your ball grab and stop in the approach when you actually try the shot.

 

Yes thank you! Been saying that for awhile since it opened and No ones agreed with me lol. It’s a terrific course, but punched 3 irons aren’t meant to plug in the fairway or approach.

[caniac6]

Pocket knife (small) for fixing pitch marks?

Yea or nae

 

Pocket knife? I haven’t seen that. I’d say it’s better than nothing but I’d think you’d potentially shear a lot of the roots when you’d insert the knife into the profile. Which will leave a nice dead spot that will require lots of time to heal.

 

Just remember to push from the outside towards the center never pull up.

I know one thing, I have never cut myself with a divot tool.

[mallrat]

When you have worked or volunteered at Tour how does the super assign tasks? Mainly regarding his/her own crew vs incoming volunteers that are Supers and assts? Does that make sense?

[BNGL]

When you have worked or volunteered at Tour how does the super assign tasks? Mainly regarding his/her own crew vs incoming volunteers that are Supers and assts? Does that make sense?

 

Absolutely it does. Let me gather my thoughts and get back to you this evening!

[BNGL]

When you have worked or volunteered at Tour how does the super assign tasks? Mainly regarding his/her own crew vs incoming volunteers that are Supers and assts? Does that make sense?

 

Each place might be a little different, but generally if the crew is large enough then they’ll be on the mowers and equipment. Typically the volunteers will just be on a handheld or tow behind blower, moving ramps for bunker crews, hand raking bunkers, or on a hose. But that being said I do know of courses that have walk mowed fairways for events (US Open at Congressional I believe) that was all hands on deck. I’m a little hesitant to put people I don’t know on a mower (plus I don’t want to rely on them either I know the regular crew will show up and get the job done), not because they don’t know how to mow, but because they may not necessarily know their way around the property. Perfect example is this week at Bay Hill. 8 green and 2 tee are fairly close, close enough that the tour asks to have 8 green done 15 minutes before the first tee time to make sure that no unnecessary noise is affecting those on the tee at 2. So whomever has that route needs to do their first couple greens, then go to 8, then finish their route.

[MaxBuck]

I'm curious as to why some bermudagrass greens are exceptionally grainy and others are not very grainy at all. As someone who grew up in the midwest and played bentgrass most of my life, I'm having to adjust to bermuda now - and it's not easy! Bent greens can sometimes be a bit grainy, but it's uncommon.

 

Separately, my own way of testing grain is to run my fingers along the grass surface to test which direction feels the most bristly. Is that legal per the rules of golf? I've never found the shiny-vs-dull or dark-vs-light to be very easy to distinguish.

 

Edit: had to change a bleeped-out porcupine-based word *****ly to "bristly." I guess I understand why, but it's amusing.

[sui generis]

I'm curious as to why some bermudagrass greens are exceptionally grainy and others are not very grainy at all. As someone who grew up in the midwest and played bentgrass most of my life, I'm having to adjust to bermuda now - and it's not easy! Bent greens can sometimes be a bit grainy, but it's uncommon.

 

Separately, my own way of testing grain is to run my fingers along the grass surface to test which direction feels the most bristly. Is that legal per the rules of golf? I've never found the shiny-vs-dull or dark-vs-light to be very easy to distinguish.

 

Edit: had to change a bleeped-out porcupine-based word *****ly to "bristly." I guess I understand why, but it's amusing.

 

http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13

 

13.1.e. No Deliberate Testing of Greens

 

During a round and while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, a player must not deliberately take either of these actions to test the putting green or a wrong green:

 

Rub the surface, or

 

Roll a ball.

 

Exception – Testing Greens When Between Two Holes: Between two holes, a player may rub the surface or roll a ball on the putting green of the hole just completed and on any practice green (see Rule 5.5b).

[MaxBuck]

http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13

 

13.1.e. No Deliberate Testing of Greens

 

During a round and while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, a player must not deliberately take either of these actions to test the putting green or a wrong green:

 

Rub the surface ...

 

Thanks from this lazy golfer (should have researched it myself). Guess I'm lucky no one has called me on this ...