Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[vallygolf]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:47 AM, allenartlab said:

@BNGL Do you know whether there are any golf courses in Palm Spring/Palm Desert/La Quinta area that still use Bermuda grass on their greens during the winter season? 

Nearly all of them USE bermuda grass during the winter season.  The greens ARE bermuda greens.  It just goes dormant during the winter and most choose to plant a rye grass over the top that lives only until it gets burned off with the spring and summer heat.  If your question is: Are there courses that leave the dormant bermuda as the playing surface during the winter the answer is yes.  Periodically many courses that overseed will skip a season and paint the greens to promote better turf health (while not a big deal overseeding stresses the bermuda spring rebound).  You would have to call to find out which ones have not overseeded.  Pinehurst #2 is a good example of a course that paints the greens in winter (at least used to) and plays the dormant bermuda.  It can play very very fast.

[TexasTurf]

16 hours ago, vallygolf said:

Nearly all of them USE bermuda grass during the winter season.  The greens ARE bermuda greens.  It just goes dormant during the winter and most choose to plant a rye grass over the top that lives only until it gets burned off with the spring and summer heat.  If your question is: Are there courses that leave the dormant bermuda as the playing surface during the winter the answer is yes.  Periodically many courses that overseed will skip a season and paint the greens to promote better turf health (while not a big deal overseeding stresses the bermuda spring rebound).  You would have to call to find out which ones have not overseeded.  Pinehurst #2 is a good example of a course that paints the greens in winter (at least used to) and plays the dormant bermuda.  It can play very very fast.

Exactly. 

 

And in my opinion dormant bermuda plays much better than overseeded bermuda. But golfers love green and mowing stripes, so they just give them the bad playing conditions that they demand.

 

As one of my good GM friends says, golfers take their clubs out of the trunk, then take their brain out of their heads and put it inside the trunk, then step on the golf course. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by TexasTurf

[mallrat]

2 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Exactly. 

 

And in my opinion dormant bermuda plays much better than overseeded bermuda. But golfers love green and mowing stripes, so they just give them the bad playing conditions that they demand.

 

As one of my good GM friends says, golfers take their clubs out of the trunk, then take their brain out of their heads and put it inside the trunk, then step on the golf course. 

We always said that there is a vacuum in the seats of golf carts and when they sit down it sucks their brains out their booty 

[caniac6]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:03 AM, TexasTurf said:

Exactly. 

 

And in my opinion dormant bermuda plays much better than overseeded bermuda. But golfers love green and mowing stripes, so they just give them the bad playing conditions that they demand.

 

As one of my good GM friends says, golfers take their clubs out of the trunk, then take their brain out of their heads and put it inside the trunk, then step on the golf course. 

Most of the courses around here with bermuda greens paint them. I guess it helps identify the target, and they putt well. 

[allenartlab]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:57 AM, vallygolf said:

Nearly all of them USE bermuda grass during the winter season.  The greens ARE bermuda greens.  It just goes dormant during the winter and most choose to plant a rye grass over the top that lives only until it gets burned off with the spring and summer heat.  If your question is: Are there courses that leave the dormant bermuda as the playing surface during the winter the answer is yes.  Periodically many courses that overseed will skip a season and paint the greens to promote better turf health (while not a big deal overseeding stresses the bermuda spring rebound).  You would have to call to find out which ones have not overseeded.  Pinehurst #2 is a good example of a course that paints the greens in winter (at least used to) and plays the dormant bermuda.  It can play very very fast.

Thanks for your reply!

[allenartlab]

17 hours ago, allenartlab said:

Thanks for your reply!

Just in case anyone else is interested: I found, after calling some public golf course with good reviews in Coachella Valley area, the Classic Club will not overseed this winter. 

[Lobby]

And here I was thinking the city was being cheap for not overseeding the greens on several courses this winter (San Antonio).

 

Thanks.

[TexasTurf]

11 hours ago, Lobby said:

And here I was thinking the city was being cheap for not overseeding the greens on several courses this winter (San Antonio).

 

Thanks.

That could be the case but enjoy the dormant bermuda while you can. The real indicator of whether they are being cheap or not are if they are infested with poa in a few months!

[NDSwim]

In Phoenix, overseeded rye, our course is so wet, constant mud balls.  How often do we need to water the fairways? 

[vallygolf]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:04 PM, NDSwim said:

In Phoenix, overseeded rye, our course is so wet, constant mud balls.  How often do we need to water the fairways? 

Less often than they are and less water.  While the seed is growing in initially it needs to be damp but not wet if that makes sense.... After it gets established it needs much less water, preferably longer watering far fewer times.  At that point a well run/maintained course will not see mud balls in the fairways.  Because the dormant bermuda is thin and sparse in the non overseed rough the fairway overspary (and in some cases the system still waters the dormant rough with the fairways) can leave it pretty damp and muddy.  Tough to manage that.

[NDSwim]

11 hours ago, vallygolf said:

Less often than they are and less water.  While the seed is growing in initially it needs to be damp but not wet if that makes sense.... After it gets established it needs much less water, preferably longer watering far fewer times.  At that point a well run/maintained course will not see mud balls in the fairways.  Because the dormant bermuda is thin and sparse in the non overseed rough the fairway overspary (and in some cases the system still waters the dormant rough with the fairways) can leave it pretty damp and muddy.  Tough to manage that.

Thank you.  Makes sense.  Boggles my mind how wet it is kept.

 

[TexasTurf]

On 12/16/2023 at 4:04 PM, NDSwim said:

In Phoenix, overseeded rye, our course is so wet, constant mud balls.  How often do we need to water the fairways? 

You have to have people willing to push the limits. But more importantly, membership that supports them pushing the limits. Then you're in the elite sweet spot.

[NDSwim]

8 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

You have to have people willing to push the limits. But more importantly, membership that supports them pushing the limits. Then you're in the elite sweet spot.

Members want it pushed and drier, superintendent not so much.

[jkody]

This is the issue at my club. All of the members want the course firmer and drier but the super LOVES perfectly green grass. It's incredibly frustrating because the course has many greens (especially but not exclusively on par 5s) that would work for a running shot but instead the ball just goes splat, and the green surrounds are just plain old squishy.

Edited December 19, 2023 by jkody

[NDSwim]

5 hours ago, jkody said:

This is the issue at my club. All of the members want the course firmer and drier but the super LOVES perfectly green grass. It's incredibly frustrating because the course has many greens (especially but not exclusively on par 5s) that would work for a running shot but instead the ball just goes splat, and the green surrounds are just plain old squishy.

Exactly.

[eers2u]

We are considering using zero turn commercial mowers to mow the rough at our course.  Any experience with this?  Pros/cons?

[mallrat]

1 hour ago, eers2u said:

We are considering using zero turn commercial mowers to mow the rough at our course.  Any experience with this?  Pros/cons?

How much rough do you have to mow and what are your hills like? It takes us 3 full days to mow rough with 2 5 deck mowers and that doesn’t include the range which is another 3-4 hrs? Now price was you could run 5 or 6 for the cost of 1 but do you have the staff for it?

[TexasTurf]

13 hours ago, jkody said:

This is the issue at my club. All of the members want the course firmer and drier but the super LOVES perfectly green grass. It's incredibly frustrating because the course has many greens (especially but not exclusively on par 5s) that would work for a running shot but instead the ball just goes splat, and the green surrounds are just plain old squishy.

Replying to you and NDSwim. This can absolutely be attainable. But you have to be willing to lose some turf or have weak areas along the way until they are improved. But weak dry areas play better than soggy thick areas in my opinion. It takes a while for it to adjust, but worth it in the long run.

[smashdn]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:32 PM, caniac6 said:

Most of the courses around here with bermuda greens paint them. I guess it helps identify the target, and they putt well. 

 

Unless you have a very distinct difference in height of cut between green and the surrounding grass you may need the paint from a Rules of Golf standpoint to help make that distinction.  

[jkody]

13 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Replying to you and NDSwim. This can absolutely be attainable. But you have to be willing to lose some turf or have weak areas along the way until they are improved. But weak dry areas play better than soggy thick areas in my opinion. It takes a while for it to adjust, but worth it in the long run.

 

You mean dry and firm but still green is attainable?

 

We are in western MT so basically 100% of the water on the course in the summer and early fall is from irrigation rather than rain, which is basically nonexistent from July to October. Unfortunately our course is also built on mostly clay so that may compound the problem. To our super's credit, he added huge amounts of short grass around the greens (per the original course plans) this year and we had a tough winter, and so maybe--just maybe--they had to keep everything wetter so the thin and damaged areas would fill in.

[eers2u]

21 hours ago, mallrat said:

How much rough do you have to mow and what are your hills like? It takes us 3 full days to mow rough with 2 5 deck mowers and that doesn’t include the range which is another 3-4 hrs? Now price was you could run 5 or 6 for the cost of 1 but do you have the staff for it?

Course sits on about 135 acres, so not an abundance of rough.  Range is very small, easily mowed in less than an hour.  A few hills, but the majority of the rough is relatively flat.

[TexasTurf]

11 hours ago, jkody said:

 

You mean dry and firm but still green is attainable?

 

We are in western MT so basically 100% of the water on the course in the summer and early fall is from irrigation rather than rain, which is basically nonexistent from July to October. Unfortunately our course is also built on mostly clay so that may compound the problem. To our super's credit, he added huge amounts of short grass around the greens (per the original course plans) this year and we had a tough winter, and so maybe--just maybe--they had to keep everything wetter so the thin and damaged areas would fill in.

If you really want firm, It is going to be a patchy look, not a consistent green. Some areas will be more green, some areas less green or brown, but still alive. You have decide on looks vs. playability. 

[TexasTurf]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:37 PM, eers2u said:

We are considering using zero turn commercial mowers to mow the rough at our course.  Any experience with this?  Pros/cons?

If that is your only option on you budget go for it. But you're going to have damage with tire tracks and damage where they turn.

[ChipNRun]

Here in St. Louis, the golf community has combined efforts in a project called Normandie Reimagined.

 

Normandie, designed by James Foulis in 1901, is the oldest public course west of the Mississippi. It has survived two decades of struggling to stay open. 

 

Several community organizations, with major help of Nicklaus Design, are rebuilding the Normandie Golf Club and linking in several community and youth-related programs into the facility.

============================

 

For our Greenskeepers...

 

The course layout will undergo a major renovation, with about half the holes being completely redesigned. One of the problems arising from Normandie's 122-year existence has been the settling out of some drainage areas, and silting over of some lagoons and creeks. Basically, several landing areas would spot flood if solid rain hit the area.

 

To resolve this, the new design will rebuild or create several lagoons on the course to better handle drainage. And, one interesting technique will be to have shared tee boxes on four of the holes.

 

Golf courses in general are facing tight land spaces, drainage challenges, and the need to make maintenance schemes more efficient. So...

• Will the building of shared tee boxes become more prevalent in golfdom?
• What steps must be taken to ensure that the two sets of golfers don't interfere with each other?

 

[TexasTurf]

12 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Here in St. Louis, the golf community has combined efforts in a project called Normandie Reimagined.

 

Normandie, designed by James Foulis in 1901, is the oldest public course west of the Mississippi. It has survived two decades of struggling to stay open. 

 

Several community organizations, with major help of Nicklaus Design, are rebuilding the Normandie Golf Club and linking in several community and youth-related programs into the facility.

============================

 

For our Greenskeepers...

 

The course layout will undergo a major renovation, with about half the holes being completely redesigned. One of the problems arising from Normandie's 122-year existence has been the settling out of some drainage areas, and silting over of some lagoons and creeks. Basically, several landing areas would spot flood if solid rain hit the area.

 

To resolve this, the new design will rebuild or create several lagoons on the course to better handle drainage. And, one interesting technique will be to have shared tee boxes on four of the holes.

 

Golf courses in general are facing tight land spaces, drainage challenges, and the need to make maintenance schemes more efficient. So...

• Will the building of shared tee boxes become more prevalent in golfdom?
• What steps must be taken to ensure that the two sets of golfers don't interfere with each other?

 

1: More prevalent, no, it is not how most courses are set up. 2: No problem, just space the tees out and make sure they are not in each others playing lines. Cool idea, dont overcomplicate it.

[Bonneville85308]

Say you have a course that is wall-to-wall bermuda grass in a warm climate like AZ. You decide to stop overseeding with rye in winter, so the entire course is dormant bermuda; perhaps painted green if anything. Since the grass is completely dormant, would this eliminate the need for frost delays in winter?

[Dancin]

The frost causes the grass blade to break in two when it is stepped on so no just because it is dormant doesn't mean it isn't susceptible to frost damage.

[Bonneville85308]

56 minutes ago, Dancin said:

The frost causes the grass blade to break in two when it is stepped on so no just because it is dormant doesn't mean it isn't susceptible to frost damage.

 

Thanks. I was just curious if it was something that could be cited as a benefit for skipping overseeding and letting the whole course go dormant.

[kekoa]

Can you tell me why some clubs cut their kikuyu fairways nice and tight whereas others leave the grass a bit shaggy?  I much prefer tighter fairways where the ball sits high and also allows for significantly more roll out on drives.  FWIW, I'm talking about country clubs here and not the local muni.

 

 

thank you,

[needMoinfo]

Work at a course in Texas, poa annua infestation. No super right now, and from my understanding, to late to spray Kerb( Max temp is 55 degrees?) what can I already now that won't affect greens?