Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[bcjim]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:28 AM, Dancin said:

The frost causes the grass blade to break in two when it is stepped on so no just because it is dormant doesn't mean it isn't susceptible to frost damage.

I know a couple of courses that just don't bother with frost delays and nothing dramatic has ever happened as far as I know.  

 

If a blade of grass breaks, how is that different than being mowed? Also,  it can be below freezing without frost,  and nobody seems to be concerned then. 

[Dancin]

36 minutes ago, bcjim said:

I know a couple of courses that just don't bother with frost delays and nothing dramatic has ever happened as far as I know.  

 

If a blade of grass breaks, how is that different than being mowed? Also,  it can be below freezing without frost,  and nobody seems to be concerned then. 

Frost damage kills the whole blade down to the ground. If you don't care about playing on brown, spotty grass then not a huge deal in fairways. At green height it can be a disaster. I would guess the courses that are letting you out with visible frost may have already watered the greens to remove the frost on them.

[TexasTurf]

2 hours ago, needMoinfo said:

Work at a course in Texas, poa annua infestation. No super right now, and from my understanding, to late to spray Kerb( Max temp is 55 degrees?) what can I already now that won't affect greens?

Where in Texas, and are you on bermuda or bent?

[TexasTurf]

1 hour ago, bcjim said:

I know a couple of courses that just don't bother with frost delays and nothing dramatic has ever happened as far as I know.  

 

If a blade of grass breaks, how is that different than being mowed? Also,  it can be below freezing without frost,  and nobody seems to be concerned then. 

Depends on the grass. There's a local pro here in Dallas that runs off superintendents left and right, that drives carts across the greens during frosty conditions to make a point that it doesn't do anything. But it turns out that he is actually right (city of Dallas public track on bermuda greens).

[TexasTurf]

And in Japan they play on frosty bentgrass greens all winter, with little to no damage. Walking on it isn't a problem it's mainly driving on frosted rough and fwys will turn it off color for a while, like you said, hurts the leaf blades, but doesn't kill anything.

[mallrat]

For us it’s just the chance that it can damage the leaf. We are a Poa course and our grass does not go dormant. So if it does damage the turf you know have to look at and deal with it for a month to a couple months until the grass starts growing again. 
 

We would never even think of sending golfers out if the temps are below 32. 
 

Now one of our biggest issues is if the greens freeze. If they are frozen you can play on them UNLESS rain is coming in. If they are frozen (not frosty) and the rain comes the turf can shift as the top layer will thaw and be frozen underneath.  If it shifts underfoot you can shear off the blade from the root and that will take awhile to come back if at all. 

[mallrat]

5 hours ago, needMoinfo said:

Work at a course in Texas, poa annua infestation. No super right now, and from my understanding, to late to spray Kerb( Max temp is 55 degrees?) what can I already now that won't affect greens?

Embrace the Poa or reseed. I know a couple Supers have lost their job spraying for Poa and not realizing how much their was. 
 

That said Poa can be an excellent putting surface but the problem comes from when there is Poa and another type of grass (bent, Bermuda, fescue, whatever). You would be amazed at how many courses are actually Poa across the US. If you want to go down the rabbit hole this is a great read. 
 

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=61056.0

[Holy Moses]

12 hours ago, needMoinfo said:

Work at a course in Texas, poa annua infestation. No super right now, and from my understanding, to late to spray Kerb( Max temp is 55 degrees?) what can I already now that won't affect greens?

Look into Poa Cure herbicide

 

https://www.poacure.com

[Dancin]

7 hours ago, mallrat said:

Embrace the Poa or reseed. I know a couple Supers have lost their job spraying for Poa and not realizing how much their was.

This ^^ . Personally experienced a super that decided to kill the POA in the middle of summer right before a week of 100+ temperatures. Greens ended up being mostly dirt.

[TexasTurf]

21 hours ago, mallrat said:

For us it’s just the chance that it can damage the leaf. We are a Poa course and our grass does not go dormant. So if it does damage the turf you know have to look at and deal with it for a month to a couple months until the grass starts growing again. 
 

We would never even think of sending golfers out if the temps are below 32. 
 

Now one of our biggest issues is if the greens freeze. If they are frozen you can play on them UNLESS rain is coming in. If they are frozen (not frosty) and the rain comes the turf can shift as the top layer will thaw and be frozen underneath.  If it shifts underfoot you can shear off the blade from the root and that will take awhile to come back if at all. 

USGA test says no problem playing on Poa greens in frost. 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/62/issue-05/the-effect-of-traffic-on-turf-during-frost-and-freezing-conditio.html#issueFilters=volume-62--issue-05&returnable

[TexasTurf]

14 hours ago, Dancin said:

This ^^ . Personally experienced a super that decided to kill the POA in the middle of summer right before a week of 100+ temperatures. Greens ended up being mostly dirt.

Dirt is still better than poa. Good on him. 

[mallrat]

2 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

Dirt is still better than poa. Good on him. 

So Oakmont, Winged Foot, Pine Valley and quite a few others should go to dirt? Interesting take 

[TexasTurf]

7 minutes ago, mallrat said:

So Oakmont, Winged Foot, Pine Valley and quite a few others should go to dirt? Interesting take 

No he said said they were facing 100+ temps. In that situation, poa has to go. But all of the above should switch to bent. Ask any top pro what their least favorite surface is and you will get your answer. 

[mallrat]

6 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

No he said said they were facing 100+ temps. In that situation, poa has to go. But all of the above should switch to bent. Ask any top pro what their least favorite surface is and you will get your answer. 

To be honest I could care less what most pro’s say. I’m not saying that Poa is better than bent but Poa gets a really bad rap. Poa is perfectly fine and in a lot of instances even the pro’s wouldn’t know they were putting on Poa. There are so many ways to manage the seed heads and I know of plenty of courses that you won’t see a seed head even late in the day. 
 

Also, why does Poa have to go?

[st1800e]

25 minutes ago, mallrat said:

There are so many ways to manage the seed heads

Interested to know the methods, can you provide some info? 

[mallrat]

Embark is #1 if you can get ahold of it. They stopped producing it about 3 years ago though. I know a couple courses that are sitting on pallets of the stuff. Weirdly enough it was the byproduct of making bed springs. 
 

We just use Proxy because Embark doesn’t like the color Embark turns the greens and it can stress out some greens. Also just your cultural practices. If you keep your turf healthy they don’t get as stressed. 
 

Poa in general has a really shallow root system so you have to give your greens a little more water. Also from my understanding there is a window a couple years in where they become accustomed to everything and just stop producing seed heads as prolifically. We very rarely see seed heads on the greens and collections, for us it’s our fairways. 

[Dancin]

9 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Dirt is still better than poa. Good on him. 

No that was a horrible decision. Where my course is and the amount of water they give it, poa is never an issue. After he left the new super that came in, said poa is never a problem here because we don't give it enough water or fertilizer for it to grow enough to affect putts. He had the greens the best they have ever been within a couple months and they've been fine ever since.

[Holy Moses]

20 hours ago, st1800e said:

Interested to know the methods, can you provide some info? 

Growth regulators such as Ethephon or Proxy 

[mallrat]

2 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Growth regulators such as Ethephon or Proxy 

we also Primo Maxx more in the summer. Proxy is more in the fall / winter for us. 

[TexasTurf]

23 hours ago, mallrat said:

To be honest I could care less what most pro’s say. I’m not saying that Poa is better than bent but Poa gets a really bad rap. Poa is perfectly fine and in a lot of instances even the pro’s wouldn’t know they were putting on Poa. There are so many ways to manage the seed heads and I know of plenty of courses that you won’t see a seed head even late in the day. 
 

Also, why does Poa have to go?

I care about it because it is our #1 weed, the bane of my existence, and because those guys dictate my employment. But really I'm just pulling your chain. In lots of places it is the best option. Keep up the good work. 

[mallrat]

10 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

I care about it because it is our #1 weed, the bane of my existence, and because those guys dictate my employment. But really I'm just pulling your chain. In lots of places it is the best option. Keep up the good work. 

 
We’re good. And I live in a part of the country where if in a job interview a guy tells you he can keep Poa out he’s either lying or an idiot. 

[dmecca2]

Have any supers out there started using and collecting data from the GS3 ball the usga released? I'm curious to see the day to day accuracy of this and whether supers will release/compare the data, or keep it private.

[davechen]

Hey, y'all.

 

Our course is changing the fairways from rye grass to bermuda.   We're in the DC suburbs, and water costs have been getting out of hand with the warming temperatures.

 

They've done the first application of herbicide to kill the rye, and in a few weeks the course will close for 2 months, supposedly.  In July they'll plant sprigs of bermuda.

 

Has anyone here gone through that process before?  Does 2 months sound right?  What will the playing conditions be like when it first re-opens?  How long will it take before it's really nice?

 

The folks in charge of our club have done a fabulous job as far as course conditions go, so I have no reason to doubt them.  Just feeling a little anxious about the closure.

[Abh159]

1 hour ago, davechen said:

Hey, y'all.

 

Our course is changing the fairways from rye grass to bermuda.   We're in the DC suburbs, and water costs have been getting out of hand with the warming temperatures.

 

They've done the first application of herbicide to kill the rye, and in a few weeks the course will close for 2 months, supposedly.  In July they'll plant sprigs of bermuda.

 

Has anyone here gone through that process before?  Does 2 months sound right?  What will the playing conditions be like when it first re-opens?  How long will it take before it's really nice?

 

The folks in charge of our club have done a fabulous job as far as course conditions go, so I have no reason to doubt them.  Just feeling a little anxious about the closure.

 

 

2 months sounds a little overzealous if you ask me, but if the goal is to get people back out as quickly as possible it should at least be playable by then (assuming everything goes to plan). The sprigs should grow relatively quickly in the summer since bermuda thrives in the heat.

 

However, I wouldn't expect 100% perfect fairways once you get back on the course. Some of the areas won't grow in (Colonial this past week was a good example) or won't make it through the winter. I imagine they'll sod those areas next spring/summer once it warms up enough for the bermuda to grow. 

 

In all honesty it's probably going to be next summer (2025) before you really see the benefits.

[mallrat]

On 4/23/2024 at 6:41 AM, dmecca2 said:

Have any supers out there started using and collecting data from the GS3 ball the usga released? I'm curious to see the day to day accuracy of this and whether supers will release/compare the data, or keep it private.

Only 2 people I know using it work for the USGA (agronomists for the USGA) greens section. Provides some great data and they (as do I) think it’s really cool. 

[smashdn]

22 hours ago, davechen said:

Hey, y'all.

 

Our course is changing the fairways from rye grass to bermuda.   We're in the DC suburbs, and water costs have been getting out of hand with the warming temperatures.

 

They've done the first application of herbicide to kill the rye, and in a few weeks the course will close for 2 months, supposedly.  In July they'll plant sprigs of bermuda.

 

Has anyone here gone through that process before?  Does 2 months sound right?  What will the playing conditions be like when it first re-opens?  How long will it take before it's really nice?

 

The folks in charge of our club have done a fabulous job as far as course conditions go, so I have no reason to doubt them.  Just feeling a little anxious about the closure.

 

Harmony Landing in Goshen, Ky was a rye course but converted to zoysia IIRC.  You may see if you can contact someone there and get some information.

[dmecca2]

On 5/28/2024 at 2:23 PM, mallrat said:

Only 2 people I know using it work for the USGA (agronomists for the USGA) greens section. Provides some great data and they (as do I) think it’s really cool. 

Is there any way to see that data? I know the super at a local club uses it, but he keeps the results close to chest in fear of unhappy members

[golfortennis]

Does anyone know why, on Florida courses, the greens look like they are separated from the fringe by a small trench?  It almost looks like the green was dropped in and didn't quite fit.  

 

I note that I have only seen this on the "better" courses I have played there.  

[Holy Moses]

6 hours ago, golfortennis said:

Does anyone know why, on Florida courses, the greens look like they are separated from the fringe by a small trench?  It almost looks like the green was dropped in and didn't quite fit.  

 

I note that I have only seen this on the "better" courses I have played there.  

I think they are trying to separate out the different varieties of bermuda turf so they don’t mix. One type in the fairway and rough, another on the green. Possibly some edging between them so the stolons or runners don’t move out of their intended area.

Edited June 2, 2024 by Holy Moses

[mallrat]

5 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

I think they are trying to separate out the different varieties of bermuda turf so they don’t mix. One type in the fairway and rough, another on the green. Possibly some edging between them so the stolons or runners don’t move out of their intended area.

Don’t know why but I’ve seen videos of guys going through with edgers and outlining greens. Basically what you said would be my guess. Trying to get down to the roots to keep the varieties separate.