Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have

[Dpavs]

Rakes inside the bunkers do not bother me as long as they are on the green-side (up slope) of the bunker. All in all I prefer them on the outside. If a ball is prevented from going in the bunker by a rake, it's a lucky break but that's just part of the game isn't it? Before we go down the "lucky break that was preventable" road, let's remember that a ball resting against a rake on a down-slope in a bunker is an unlucky break which is equally preventable right? Might just be me, but I prefer lucky breaks!

Edited November 2, 2024 by Dpavs

[ThinkingPlus]

7 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Agreed. With the amount of demand and play currently I don't understand how a lack of rakes and sand can be possible, unless you're deliberately not trying to care. Both of those issues are extremely easy to fix with no disruption to daily play, at any level.

Sand is an issue down here because there isn't a local supply. Also the considerable wind makes frequent sand replacement necessary. Single courses are typically unable or unwilling to pay for the minimum rail car of sand from SA. They try to share a load every now and then, but path of least resistance results in lots of bunkers without sand.

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, Dpavs said:

Rakes inside the bunkers do not bother me as long as they are on the green-side (up slope) of the bunker. All in all I prefer them on the outside. If a ball is prevented from going in the bunker by a rake, it's a lucky break but that's just part of the game isn't it? Before we go down the "luck break that was preventable" road, let's remember that a ball resting against a rake on a down-slope in a bunker is an unlucky break which is equally preventable right? Might just be me, but I prefer lucky breaks!

 

But it's worse than that.  If you can't get your ball to stay(you are not allowed to push it down to gain a "ledge"), and you are forced to drop outside the bunker, you get nailed with a penalty.

 

Rakes out!  

[golfortennis]

On 10/31/2024 at 6:58 PM, mallrat said:

I was taught the takes are superintendent dependent. All of my previous Supers wanted them placed in the bunker. 2 wanted the handle to run horizontal with the bunker edge, with the rake or top closer to the green the other wanted them placed in the bunkers like a T, so the handle was perpendicular vs parallel to the bunker edge. The parallel argument was that the head was still on a slope so technically the ball should roll down the slope away from the head of the rake.

 

Now, from what I was taught, the most important part, bunker takes always are placed in low points. Rakes placed on steep slopes or the high side encourage golfers to enter there which will disrupt the bunker much more than entering in a flat area. 

 

That is a great plan.....until the first guy of the day goes into that bunker.  Then he will play his shot, grab the rake, and put it somewhere where he is exiting, which may be an even worse spot.  

 

Sadly, this is a prime example of not being able to fix stupid.

[Nels55]

Almost anytime I go into a bunker at my course I am raking up someone else's mess.  I always make sure the rake(s) are in a good spot outside the bunker when finished.  LOL I suppose a lot of people would say that I am the stupid one.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

5 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

That is a great plan.....until the first guy of the day goes into that bunker.  Then he will play his shot, grab the rake, and put it somewhere where he is exiting, which may be an even worse spot.  

 

Sadly, this is a prime example of not being able to fix stupid.

 

I think it's more a combination of golf newbies, golfers who just haven't learned golf etiquette, and golfers who just don't care. 

 

At least, that's what I see at my home course. 

[TexasTurf]

16 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Sand is an issue down here because there isn't a local supply. Also the considerable wind makes frequent sand replacement necessary. Single courses are typically unable or unwilling to pay for the minimum rail car of sand from SA. They try to share a load every now and then, but path of least resistance results in lots of bunkers without sand.

Understood. But sounds like you need a whole train of sand, not just a rail car - when you spread it out one car doesn't go a long way. Maybe even a few trains. The path of least resistance is the problem, you're going to have to fight uphill, or into the grain as golfers would say. We just renovated our course bunkers and it took several trains from Idaho to fill them up.

Edited November 3, 2024 by TexasTurf

[ThinkingPlus]

6 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Understood. But sounds like you need a whole train of sand, not just a rail car - when you spread it out one car doesn't go a long way. Maybe even a few trains. The path of least resistance is the problem, you're going to have to fight uphill, or into the grain as golfers would say. We just renovated our course bunkers and it took several trains from Idaho to fill them up.

Most courses down here have very few bunkers. Too expensive to maintain. Even if the course started with more sand bunkers, as time goes by they get converted to grass.

[caniac6]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Most courses down here have very few bunkers. Too expensive to maintain. Even if the course started with more sand bunkers, as time goes by they get converted to grass.

I played Musgrove Mill in SC, and they only had a few maintained bunkers, but a lot of waste areas. Maybe that’s the way to go.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

I played Musgrove Mill in SC, and they only had a few maintained bunkers, but a lot of waste areas. Maybe that’s the way to go.

That's the problem. We already have greenside waste bunkers. I think there are only 2 fairway-ish bunkers so not much saving there. Leaving them as-is would be fine.

[TexasTurf]

11 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That's the problem. We already have greenside waste bunkers. I think there are only 2 fairway-ish bunkers so not much saving there. Leaving them as-is would be fine.

I'm curious, what is in the waste bunkers down there?

[mallrat]

23 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Understood. But sounds like you need a whole train of sand, not just a rail car - when you spread it out one car doesn't go a long way. Maybe even a few trains. The path of least resistance is the problem, you're going to have to fight uphill, or into the grain as golfers would say. We just renovated our course bunkers and it took several trains from Idaho to fill them up.

What sand did you use? We use Better than Rivendell. I know of one course here that uses the pure white sand but from my understanding, most in the PNW won’t use it because the bunkers will get algae in them. So we use the beach looking, tan sand. I believe they get it from dredging the Columbia River 

[caniac6]

6 hours ago, mallrat said:

What sand did you use? We use Better than Rivendell. I know of one course here that uses the pure white sand but from my understanding, most in the PNW won’t use it because the bunkers will get algae in them. So we use the beach looking, tan sand. I believe they get it from dredging the Columbia River 

We are getting to play Old Town Club on a reciprocal while our course is getting renovated. OTC uses Yadkin River sand which is dark tan. Our sand comes from Spruce Pines, NC, and is supposed to be the same kind of sand that is used at Augusta. The river is just a bit firmer, and I like it better than the powdery white sand. The river sand looks more more natural, too. OTC is a Perry Maxwell course that was renovated by Coore & Crenshaw, the home of Wake Forest Golf, and the best course I have played.

[Dpavs]

8 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

I'm curious, what is in the waste bunkers down there?

 

If you're asking about my course, the answer would usually be me.

[ThinkingPlus]

9 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

I'm curious, what is in the waste bunkers down there?

They aren't really waste bunkers. They just play like a waste bunker. Just dirt, clay, and a little sand maybe. Turns to concrete if they don't fluff them some.

 

It's a mix. Some bunkers have sand. Some have much less sand. Some don't have any sand left and it's just dirt and clay.

[TexasTurf]

On 11/3/2024 at 11:22 PM, mallrat said:

What sand did you use? We use Better than Rivendell. I know of one course here that uses the pure white sand but from my understanding, most in the PNW won’t use it because the bunkers will get algae in them. So we use the beach looking, tan sand. I believe they get it from dredging the Columbia River 

We used white sand from Idaho. Very white, very consistent, all small particles, no big particles like the whites from Arkansas and Ohio that get caught between the clubface and take spin off. Playing out of our new bunkers is like cheating, you get the same result every time. That's obviously not the case and unattainable at most places.

 

If I was anywhere else I would choose whatever is affordable, fills them up, and keeps your from breaking your wrist on the liner.

[TexasTurf]

16 hours ago, Dpavs said:

 

If you're asking about my course, the answer would usually be me.

Well played.

[ThinkingPlus]

@ChaosTheory You might ask your question about irrigation system cost within this thread.

[caniac6]

Our course closed in April for a renovation. We opened mid November. The greens were rebuilt, new irrigation system, and added 40 bunkers. The greens have a lot of patches from a nursery green, and a lot of very thin areas. Some of the sod work is absolutely horrible, and some of the sod looks dead, not just dormant. The new contours around greens have created new drainage issues, and the maintenance crew seems to make a point of driving through the wet areas. The design looks good, but the finished product looks very sloppy. How long should it take an established course to recover from this kind of project?

[PeteNC]

31 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Our course closed in April for a renovation. We opened mid November. The greens were rebuilt, new irrigation system, and added 40 bunkers. The greens have a lot of patches from a nursery green, and a lot of very thin areas. Some of the sod work is absolutely horrible, and some of the sod looks dead, not just dormant. The new contours around greens have created new drainage issues, and the maintenance crew seems to make a point of driving through the wet areas. The design looks good, but the finished product looks very sloppy. How long should it take an established course to recover from this kind of project?

 

Ya'll have bent or bermuda greens?  

[caniac6]

8 hours ago, PeteNC said:

 

Ya'll have bent or bermuda greens?  

Bent

[TexasTurf]

Fantastic question. 1 year at best with a lot of work. This is very typical and normal following a renovation. Nothing grass wise is going to get better over the winter, because it's not growing, it is what is and isn't going to change until it gets warm again and the grass starts growing.

 

They can't replace the dead sod now, because it can't root in and will just die once it freezes, so wait until late spring early summer to do so. What you can do now is the drainage, but that won't recover until late next summer.

 

Also need to apply an unthinkable amount of sand next summer to smooth everything out. Don't kill the messenger, but this project is still in the "just getting started" phase.

 

 

16 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Our course closed in April for a renovation. We opened mid November. The greens were rebuilt, new irrigation system, and added 40 bunkers. The greens have a lot of patches from a nursery green, and a lot of very thin areas. Some of the sod work is absolutely horrible, and some of the sod looks dead, not just dormant. The new contours around greens have created new drainage issues, and the maintenance crew seems to make a point of driving through the wet areas. The design looks good, but the finished product looks very sloppy. How long should it take an established course to recover from this kind of project?

Edited December 20, 2024 by TexasTurf

[mallrat]

Also, where are you located?

 

our renovation was completely playable in 3 months. That said this was year 4 and you can still see areas in the fairways where the grasses are overtaking what we sodded. Some rough is still on the thin side but a lot of that is due to traffic. 
 

Drainage issues are a poor design by the architects and if the crew is making it worse by driving through, well your super better start chewing some butts out. At least drainage can be addressed fairly easily for the most part bone issue we did have, unknowingly is the heavy equipment from the renovation crushed some corrugated drainage pipe accidentally. 
 

I can’t even imagine seems on the greens. We have 2 greens where 4 years out you can still see the line of what we cut up and laid back down but there is no disruption to play. 

[caniac6]

11 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

Fantastic question. 1 year at best with a lot of work. This is very typical and normal following a renovation. Nothing grass wise is going to get better over the winter, because it's not growing, it is what is and isn't going to change until it gets warm again and the grass starts growing.

 

They can't replace the dead sod now, because it can't root in and will just die once it freezes, so wait until late spring early summer to do so. What you can do now is the drainage, but that won't recover until late next summer.

 

Also need to apply an unthinkable amount of sand next summer to smooth everything out. Don't kill the messenger, but this project is still in the "just getting started" phase.

 

 

The crew is doing some screwy stuff, too. Putting cups in weak areas on greens, not moving them for a week. Driving through wet areas, and very poor sod work. I told the guys I play with that attention to detail will be the difference between a good finished product and a poor one, and now we seem to be tending towards poor. Just little things like not enough rakes, not enough drinking water. Just aggravating crap.

[delftw]

Apologies if this has already been asked....

 

But when it comes to the CA desert courses & Coachella valley (which there are A LOT of)...and maybe Southern Florida? Why aren't these facilities going with zoysia?

 

I worked in the Coachella Valley for 2 years and everyone is just Bermuda to wintertime Rye.....I never understood why they didn't just plant zoysia and skip the overseed process. I don't think it ever got below 39 or 38 degrees in the 2 seasons I was there....even when you look at the forecast for the next 7-10 days right now....its temps in the mid to upper 70s, and a couple 80+ days, and will only get warmer from there as spring comes around.

 

I will say, frost delays at those winter time low temperatures in the low 40's seemed to be a lot more common than the bent grass courses I've worked at in similar temps...maybe zoysia with the frost would even be more of a delay than it is already...maybe that has something to do with it?

Edited December 20, 2024 by delftw
added context

[caniac6]

10 hours ago, mallrat said:

Also, where are you located?

 

our renovation was completely playable in 3 months. That said this was year 4 and you can still see areas in the fairways where the grasses are overtaking what we sodded. Some rough is still on the thin side but a lot of that is due to traffic. 
 

Drainage issues are a poor design by the architects and if the crew is making it worse by driving through, well your super better start chewing some butts out. At least drainage can be addressed fairly easily for the most part bone issue we did have, unknowingly is the heavy equipment from the renovation crushed some corrugated drainage pipe accidentally. 
 

I can’t even imagine seems on the greens. We have 2 greens where 4 years out you can still see the line of what we cut up and laid back down but there is no disruption to play. 

Winston - Salem, NC. Funny thing about the whole deal was part of the process was going to be our handicaps would travel better by adding all the additional bunkers, and making the course more difficult. The course rating went up .2 of a stroke.

Edited December 20, 2024 by caniac6

[TexasTurf]

10 hours ago, delftw said:

Apologies if this has already been asked....

 

But when it comes to the CA desert courses & Coachella valley (which there are A LOT of)...and maybe Southern Florida? Why aren't these facilities going with zoysia?

 

I worked in the Coachella Valley for 2 years and everyone is just Bermuda to wintertime Rye.....I never understood why they didn't just plant zoysia and skip the overseed process. I don't think it ever got below 39 or 38 degrees in the 2 seasons I was there....even when you look at the forecast for the next 7-10 days right now....its temps in the mid to upper 70s, and a couple 80+ days, and will only get warmer from there as spring comes around.

 

I will say, frost delays at those winter time low temperatures in the low 40's seemed to be a lot more common than the bent grass courses I've worked at in similar temps...maybe zoysia with the frost would even be more of a delay than it is already...maybe that has something to do with it?

Nothing to do with frost, that is going to be the same no matter what you're working with, cool season or warm.

 

Simple answer: 1) I needs a lot more water than bermuda, which as you know is very scarce in that area. 2) It is not conducive to overseed because it grows very slowly compared to bermuda and can't recover from overseed fast enough to be great. And most importantly 3) It is not popular in the area and people are unwilling to change. 

 

If you're sold on not overseeding it would work well, and plays it's best dormant in my opinion. But if you're going to overseed you're better off with bermuda.

[TexasTurf]

12 hours ago, caniac6 said:

The crew is doing some screwy stuff, too. Putting cups in weak areas on greens, not moving them for a week. Driving through wet areas, and very poor sod work. I told the guys I play with that attention to detail will be the difference between a good finished product and a poor one, and now we seem to be tending towards poor. Just little things like not enough rakes, not enough drinking water. Just aggravating crap.

Can't really speak on that. It takes a long time for things to mature to get good. Greens, fairways, tees, etc. need a good 2 years to mature so if you opened before then (which I know is unreasonable for most places), that's what you're going to deal with for a while.

[mshills]

On 12/20/2024 at 2:19 PM, caniac6 said:

Winston - Salem, NC. Funny thing about the whole deal was part of the process was going to be our handicaps would travel better by adding all the additional bunkers, and making the course more difficult. The course rating went up .2 of a stroke.

From what you have posted about this place, it sounds like a hot mess. Or just not a fit for you. I’d look for a club you actually like. 

[caniac6]

3 hours ago, mshills said:

From what you have posted about this place, it sounds like a hot mess. Or just not a fit for you. I’d look for a club you actually like. 

I actually like it a lot.