Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[Matt J]

Depends on the "Sunday" setup too.

 

If he stays in play off the tee, stays away from the water, then it would depend a lot on the pins.

 

I say, no way, without a caddie.

 

We have a member of our Club who is close to a ANGC member and has taken 8 or 10 friends over the years. Some of them teaching pros and scratch players. None of them said you would play enough break without a caddie. You read 6 inches the putt breaks 6 feet. You hit it 6" above the hole you're going back for your wedge because it's rolling off the green.

[Forged4ever]

Exactly!!

 

This is obviously just my .03 worth and we've addressed this in various forms and scenarios previously, i.e., "4~ versus LPGA Player," etc. and while the numbers have changed, the "game's" still the same, lol.

 

My thoughts are that there are two types of "scratches," one who has traveled "North" to that territory from "Plus," some, such as Thrill and the guy that I'm about to speak of(again, lol), having been deeper than others, though "Elite" and "Competitive" Plus Ams, of which I would put my old self in the "Competitive" category though below Elite, have "been there done that" to varying degrees and levels.

 

Do many, such as Thrill and my Friend, who was a DI AA, Walker Cupper and had his Tour card for two seasons(1986 & 1987) before he tried to "perfect" his swing and, well, he joined his father's multi-million dollar company two years later, stay at this physical level after having stepped back and out of the competitive arena? Of course not however they can recall the swings, shots and rounds of days gine by where as someone who does not have these swings shots and rounds in their bank has nothing to draw on.

 

Simply, they are at scratch to 4~ because life got in the way.

 

Though their physical game may wax and wane, however the thoughts, the focus, the VISIONS and the FEELINGS are still there and unlike the physical game, which is harder to turn on and off, they can flip into "Plus Mode" and basically turn back the clock and while they may or may not Play to their past peak level, they can lay a serious whuppin on 99.5%+'of those sharing the tee with em.

 

My fiend that I mentioned above was a 1.2~ at Oakmont(mostly shats & giggle rounds as he as family and his position as CEO of the ole man's company take up most of his time) went out the week before the '16 Open with Bob Ford, David Fehety and Monte and he was low man with a 66. He then put the sticks away and didn't Play for 5-6 weeks and had a ho-hum 72 in the Inter-Club Swat, which though it is weekly, he might Play 3-4 times a year.

 

Could he break 85 from the tourney tees at Augusta?

 

He went 74-77 last season.

 

As a 2ish~

 

Then ya have the other group of "scratch" golfers~

 

Those that have travelled "south" to this level, and while they have probably shot under par, it probably hasn't been in a Tourney or for money, and while they have the swing, the stroke and the game in all likelihood to Play at Plus, what they lack, and I cannot stress enough that if ya haven't "been there done that" you have no friggin clue just how important this is, and that is that they lack the MENTAL game.

 

Their mind does not have the thoughts, pictures, visions or most importantly, the FEELINGS of a successful stroke/swing to call on as they stand behind the ball and go through their PSR-

 

A very very very few have "tricked" their mind into believing that they have "been there done that" due to thousands and tens of thousands of mental visualization "reps," so they exhibit the calm confidence and self belief that tells them that they WILL execute this shot, not that they CAN execute the shot.

 

Hell, anyone CAN execute a shot, and maybe do it under pressure, but to Play at the level necessary to Play at Plus?

 

Nah, ain't gonna happen, not under Competieve Pressure.

 

So this takes me back to the OP's question(You guys should know me and my round the valley way of getting there??)-

 

It depends....

 

If it's a Southerner, nope, probably not, at least consistently.

 

If it's a Northerner, like my Bud or Thrill?

 

I'll bet on em every single time?

 

Stay well Gals & Gents?

 

My Best,

RP

Hmmm, a 1.2 shooting 5.2 and 2.2 below his cap at Augusta from the tourney tees on consecutive days? If I have been losing to him at home I want my money back. :)

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for not Playin much competitively, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story??

 

I swear I thought it was 74, lol

 

My Best?

RP

[Shilgy]

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for moot Playin much, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story

 

My Best

RP

Busting your balls RP. Someone has to help Maddie keep you in line. :) Any player shooting three under his cap is a lot more realistic than shooting five under even though it sounds close.

[PostandGhost]

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for not Playin much competitively, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story����

 

I swear I thought it was 74, lol

 

My Best��

RP

 

To further your point, Jeff Knox is only about a stroke and a half better than a scratch golfer and he routinely breaks 85 in the Masters Tournament. Heck, Rory McIlroy said Knox broke par the year he played with him. So the answer to this thread is yes, a scratch golfer can break 85 at Augusta National, from the tips, in the Masters, because it has actually been accomplished by someone.

[Shilgy]

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for not Playin much competitively, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story����

 

I swear I thought it was 74, lol

 

My Best��

RP

 

To further your point, Jeff Knox is only about a stroke and a half better than a scratch golfer and he routinely breaks 85 in the Masters Tournament. Heck, Rory McIlrory said Knox broke par the year he played with him. So the answer to this thread is yes, a scratch golfer can break 85 at Augusta National, from the tips, in the Masters.

Knox is a plus 2 and that is his club course. Thread was based on a scratch going in cold and playing for the first time with no help. Big huge gigantic difference imo.

[PostandGhost]

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for not Playin much competitively, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story����

 

I swear I thought it was 74, lol

 

My Best��

RP

 

To further your point, Jeff Knox is only about a stroke and a half better than a scratch golfer and he routinely breaks 85 in the Masters Tournament. Heck, Rory McIlrory said Knox broke par the year he played with him. So the answer to this thread is yes, a scratch golfer can break 85 at Augusta National, from the tips, in the Masters.

Knox is a plus 2 and that is his club course. Thread was based on a scratch going in cold and playing for the first time with no help. Big huge gigantic difference imo.

 

Actually he is a +1.6 if you want to get exact. Look it up. Not a gigantic difference between a +1.6 and a 0. A couple of bad rounds and he could be a 0 on the next revision.

[nikegal]

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for moot Playin much, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story����

 

My Best��

RP

Busting your balls RP. Someone has to help Maddie keep you in line. :) Any player shooting three under his cap is a lot more realistic than shooting five under even though it sounds close.

Hi Shilgs :) hahaha, I'm in the middle of a clinic but we broke for lunch and I noticed Richard's post and I let him know that he was off by a few, but in the ball park, lol. Frank is not your typical Am as he had a very very storied career, second only to probably Nathan in the western pa area. He won everything that you could win as an Am both locally, state wide and like Richard said, he played on the Walker Cup team in the early 80's. It's a shame that he messed around with his swing because he was going in the right direction, had his card and then two years later he was off of the tour. He did have that 66 with Bob and the guys from the green tees(us open tees) the Monday before the tourney and Bob said that he made everything that he looked at, lol. Well, I have to run. Take care :) fondly, Madison

[MtlJeff]

So again this is a fun round, no pressure except that of a friendly bet, no fans or cameras. Sunday pin locations and tournament green speeds

 

If we are saying a scratch player cannot do it, then we are arguing that the course rating should be around 84-85?

 

That would make it the toughest course in America by a wide margin yes?

 

Again this is not tournament pressure, there's no pressure here. Just a round of golf at a very tough course.

 

Ben rothlesberger shot 84 on a legit US Open setup (Bethpage) from the pro tees a few years back on TV and he was like a 3 or something at the time.

 

 

[nikegal]

Ben rothlesberger shot 84 on a legit US Open setup (Bethpage) from the pro tees a few years back on TV and he was like a 3 or something at the time.

He also had an 82 the week prior to the 16 Open from the Green tees at Oakmont(US Open tees)-

 

He was down to a 1~ to 1.5~ back in 2011-12 and Played in a few of the Swats and held his own.

 

He's also on the list to join Oakmont

 

I am using Madison's iPad as my phone is dead and I don't remember my password to get into my account

 

My Best,

RP

[Shilgy]

Google Frank Fuhrer III then get back to me, lol

 

I've been outa the loop though he had a nice '16 season for not Playin much competitively, lmao

 

Jeezzzus, Madison just corrected me-

 

He went 76-77 at Augusta from the Tourney Tees-

 

I hate when facts get in the way of my story����

 

I swear I thought it was 74, lol

 

My Best��

RP

 

To further your point, Jeff Knox is only about a stroke and a half better than a scratch golfer and he routinely breaks 85 in the Masters Tournament. Heck, Rory McIlrory said Knox broke par the year he played with him. So the answer to this thread is yes, a scratch golfer can break 85 at Augusta National, from the tips, in the Masters.

Knox is a plus 2 and that is his club course. Thread was based on a scratch going in cold and playing for the first time with no help. Big huge gigantic difference imo.

 

Actually he is a +1.6 if you want to get exact. Look it up. Not a gigantic difference between a +1.6 and a 0. A couple of bad rounds and he could be a 0 on the next revision.

Exactly. He would be playing as a +2. I am guessing he has been better than that many/most of the times he has played as a marker. In 2017 he has been as bad as +1.0 and low as +1.8. Biggest difference as I stated is that he knows the course. The op bet does not.

[Shilgy]

So again this is a fun round, no pressure except that of a friendly bet, no fans or cameras. Sunday pin locations and tournament green speeds

 

If we are saying a scratch player cannot do it, then we are arguing that the course rating should be around 84-85?

 

That would make it the toughest course in America by a wide margin yes?

 

Again this is not tournament pressure, there's no pressure here. Just a round of golf at a very tough course.

 

Ben rothlesberger shot 84 on a legit US Open setup (Bethpage) from the pro tees a few years back on TV and he was like a 3 or something at the time.

Not at all. Even if it were his home course he would be expected to average 81 from the tourney tees. In fun rounds. Do you really think he would do that with no caddie/ no practice round/ no nothing? Some course I believe are harder to play the first time around. Augusta would be one of them. And it would play longer than the yardage for a typical scratch golfer. He will not be long enough to get the added yardage off the tee on some of the holes that the pros get off the down slopes.

[puttingmatt]

To answer the OP's title, An astounding yes.

That being said, shooting a 75, doubtful, even if

The player caught lightning in a bottle.

[highergr0und]

Is he a scratch with a cap that travels? Experience playing on long courses with lightning fast greens? If so, he ought to break 80 if he can get over the nerves the course will induce.

 

If he's a scratch player on the muni circuit with slow greens and 6400 yards, then, well, no.

[nikegal]

Hey, it's still Jacobs(my phone will have enough juice in 15-30 minutes, lol) and I just wanted to give a shout out to Isaac for a nice showing in the City Championship!!

 

He ran into a buzz saw on fire, lol

 

He tied for low round on the final day!

 

Nicely Played Bro?

 

Cheers?

RP

[MtlJeff]

So again this is a fun round, no pressure except that of a friendly bet, no fans or cameras. Sunday pin locations and tournament green speeds

 

If we are saying a scratch player cannot do it, then we are arguing that the course rating should be around 84-85?

 

That would make it the toughest course in America by a wide margin yes?

 

Again this is not tournament pressure, there's no pressure here. Just a round of golf at a very tough course.

 

Ben rothlesberger shot 84 on a legit US Open setup (Bethpage) from the pro tees a few years back on TV and he was like a 3 or something at the time.

Not at all. Even if it were his home course he would be expected to average 81 from the tourney tees. In fun rounds. Do you really think he would do that with no caddie/ no practice round/ no nothing? Some course I believe are harder to play the first time around. Augusta would be one of them. And it would play longer than the yardage for a typical scratch golfer. He will not be long enough to get the added yardage off the tee on some of the holes that the pros get off the down slopes.

 

My question is more a math question. ratings exist for a reason, so if we're going no on 85 than we're saying the rating for Sunday like setup would be comfortably over 80, around 82 using the same logic, and even then we'd "expect" 85

 

I'm sure playing would be an experience and very difficult, but ratings factor in the difficulty of the course.

 

Do we think it's an 82 rating? That's an honest question

[Shilgy]

So again this is a fun round, no pressure except that of a friendly bet, no fans or cameras. Sunday pin locations and tournament green speeds

 

If we are saying a scratch player cannot do it, then we are arguing that the course rating should be around 84-85?

 

That would make it the toughest course in America by a wide margin yes?

 

Again this is not tournament pressure, there's no pressure here. Just a round of golf at a very tough course.

 

Ben rothlesberger shot 84 on a legit US Open setup (Bethpage) from the pro tees a few years back on TV and he was like a 3 or something at the time.

Not at all. Even if it were his home course he would be expected to average 81 from the tourney tees. In fun rounds. Do you really think he would do that with no caddie/ no practice round/ no nothing? Some course I believe are harder to play the first time around. Augusta would be one of them. And it would play longer than the yardage for a typical scratch golfer. He will not be long enough to get the added yardage off the tee on some of the holes that the pros get off the down slopes.

 

My question is more a math question. ratings exist for a reason, so if we're going no on 85 than we're saying the rating for Sunday like setup would be comfortably over 80, around 82 using the same logic, and even then we'd "expect" 85

 

I'm sure playing would be an experience and very difficult, but ratings factor in the difficulty of the course.

 

Do we think it's an 82 rating? That's an honest question

No-I think 78 is probably fair. But that does not mean a scratch can play to it his one and only visit. The Jeff Knox noted above probably would average around 79 there and he has played there many times. Perhaps I am an anomaly but I find it hard to play to my handicap the first time around a difficult course. I , and most players period, only play to my cap 20% of the time at my home course.

[Forged4ever]

Ok, I got my phone back. I'll tell ya what, those iPads are nice, lol. Much easier to post on than my phone, even if it is the Plus.

 

Anyhoo, do you think that Jeff Knox is your "typical" or average scratch/+1 or +2?

 

What is Augusta, back tees, 76/77?

 

What does "tourney ready" add to it?

 

I'm guessing here but I'd say that for a legit scratch(goin south), it could add 4-6 strokes at Oakmont on the Greens if they're not used to 14-15+ greens, depending on the day and weather

 

There are a lot of variables

 

Cheers?

RP

[Darth Putter]

If he's not taking a caddie, is Mr. Scratch carrying his own clubs? Is this person normally a walker and in good shape?

 

Don't worry about Augusta's slope rating, worry about the slope from the clubhouse to Rae's Creek, it's a doozy.

[Cooke]

Yeah, I definitely think 85 is attainable there. The fairways are generous there for a right to left ball striker. If you’re a scratch golfer most likely your long. So it really comes down to fairways and greens. I think sub-80 is pretty possible as well to be honest.

[Matt J]

Throwing Knox into the conversation is a bit of a fallacy. He grew up playing ANGC, third generation member, and regularly beats pros as a marker on Saturday.

 

Would all depend on the day, but a scratch who beat 85 on a Sunday could certainly be proud.

[MtlJeff]

I still would love to know the slope and rating of Augusta National with Sunday pins.Or for that matter a course like Oakmont in US Open conditions.

 

I think 85 is a reasonable target for a scratch player as have posted. But a tricked up major course, could that legit get to an over 80 rating?

[Thrillhouse]

I still would love to know the slope and rating of Augusta National with Sunday pins.Or for that matter a course like Oakmont in US Open conditions.

 

I think 85 is a reasonable target for a scratch player as have posted. But a tricked up major course, could that legit get to an over 80 rating?

 

I don't believe the North American course rating system is impacted by climate or course conditions, while the European one changes with changes in weather and course conditions on the day.

 

If it did a US Open setup with narrowed fairways, thick rough, and hard and fast greens with tucked pins (oakmont, winged foot, Torrey) would have a course rating well over 80. It would have to.

 

But Augusta? Other than the greens being really fast they don't trick it up, there really isn't rough, it kind of just is what it is. I think the course rating of 78 is about right from the back tees.

[highergr0und]

I still would love to know the slope and rating of Augusta National with Sunday pins.Or for that matter a course like Oakmont in US Open conditions.

 

I think 85 is a reasonable target for a scratch player as have posted. But a tricked up major course, could that legit get to an over 80 rating?

 

I'd wager that Oakmont, or really any other US Open course on Sunday pins would be tougher. That tourney sets up Sunday so that guys are grinding for par and trying to hold on to win. At least the Masters sets up the course for guys to score on Sunday. That would help the scratch golfer, even though some pins definitely carry a certain amount of risk/reward.

[KirkNo-yes]

Wait can we clarify here, are we talking tournament "conditions" only, or an actual tournament with fans?

 

I played Torrey south a few weeks before the tournament when the rough was in, from the one up tees and shot 81 with new clubs and didn't hit it super well. Qmany shot 69 that day as a +1.

 

Obviously Augusta is harder but we're talking shooting 84 here not winning a tournament and unless I'm mistaken it's not even in front of fans

Jeff, I hate to rain on your parade, but you guys played the two up tees. The Pro tees are not even marked 50 weeks out of the year. The tees one behind you were the taupe tees from 7,051 yards. There's another 600 yards behind those! :-)

 

The ones we played were roughly 6800 if I recall. It's likely they were two up from tournament on some holes yes

 

I think you guys played two up if it was under 7000.

 

So I'm a 4 right now, and I played Torrey back in June from the back tees they have set up (7051) and shot 78. Rough was thick, greens were rolling pretty well, it can't have been far off the farmers conditions. I might not have played well from 7600, but I'm pretty sure I would have broken 85 that day from those tees. Fun fact I was with a friend who is a really good college player at a top ranked D1 school, he played the back edge of the back tee and shot even, it was cool to watch.

 

Now I know I'm a poor example of a 4 because I used to be better, my putting and short game is much better than most 4s due to past experience, and as my driving is improving I'll probably be a solid scratch next year, so I'm not really a run of the mill 4 I'm more like a 0 who is a 4 right now because I drive it bad. BUT, I'm pretty sure I can break 85 at Augusta right now under tournament COURSE conditions (eg no crowds). I'm a good putter, I have all the shots around the greens, and I can get it around well enough from tee to green to score. 85 just isn't that high of a benchmark, I just started playing again this year after like 4 years off and yeah I had some sketchy high 80s rounds at the beginning but since then I think my worst is 84, and I sucked that day!

 

Now as far as breaking 80 in tournament course conditions at Augusta right now that would be a feat. Do I think I could do it? Possibly, but I wouldn't put my chances at better than 1/5. That being said if I was playing solid scratch golf could I do it? Yeah, I think chances would be good that I could. We aren't talking about playing in front of crowds and with TV cameras around, just a long golf course with fast greens, it's not that big of a deal.

Exactly!!

 

This is obviously just my .03 worth and we've addressed this in various forms and scenarios previously, i.e., "4~ versus LPGA Player," etc. and while the numbers have changed, the "game's" still the same, lol.

 

My thoughts are that there are two types of "scratches," one who has traveled "North" to that territory from "Plus," some, such as Thrill and the guy that I'm about to speak of(again, lol), having been deeper than others, though "Elite" and "Competitive" Plus Ams, of which I would put my old self in the "Competitive" category though below Elite, have "been there done that" to varying degrees and levels.

 

Do many, such as Thrill and my Friend, who was a DI AA, Walker Cupper and had his Tour card for two seasons(1986 & 1987) before he tried to "perfect" his swing and, well, he joined his father's multi-million dollar company two years later, stay at this physical level after having stepped back and out of the competitive arena? Of course not however they can recall the swings, shots and rounds of days gone by and most importantly, the VISIONS & FEELINGS of those swings and shots where as someone who does not have these swings shots and rounds in their bank has nothing to draw on.

 

Simply, they are at scratch to 4~ because life got in the way.

 

Though their physical game may wax and wane, however the thoughts, the focus, the VISIONS and the FEELINGS are still there and unlike the physical game, which is harder to turn on and off, they can flip into "Plus Mode" and basically turn back the clock and while they may or may not Play to their past peak level, they can lay a serious whuppin on 99.5%+'of those sharing the tee with em.

 

My fiend that I mentioned above was a 1.2~ at Oakmont(mostly shats & giggle rounds as he as family and his position as CEO of the ole man's company take up most of his time) went out the week before the '16 Open with Bob Ford, David Fehety and Monte and he was low man with a 66. He then put the sticks away and didn't Play for 5-6 weeks and had a ho-hum 72 in the Inter-Club Swat, which though it is weekly, he might Play 3-4 times a year.

 

Could he break 85 from the tourney tees at Augusta?

 

He went 74-77 last season.

 

As a 2ish~

 

Then ya have the other group of "scratch" golfers~

 

Those that have travelled "south" to this level, and while they have probably shot under par, it probably hasn't been in a Tourney or for money, and while they have the swing, the stroke and the game in all likelihood to Play at Plus, what they lack, and I cannot stress enough that if ya haven't "been there done that" you have no friggin clue just how important this is, and that is that they lack the MENTAL game.

 

Their mind does not have the thoughts, pictures, visions or most importantly, the FEELINGS of a successful stroke/swing to call on as they stand behind the ball and go through their PSR-

 

A very very very few have "tricked" their mind into believing that they have "been there done that" due to thousands and tens of thousands of mental visualization "reps," so they exhibit the calm confidence and self belief that tells them that they WILL execute this shot, not that they CAN execute the shot.

 

Hell, anyone CAN execute a shot, and maybe do it under pressure, but to Play at the level necessary to Play at Plus?

 

Nah, ain't gonna happen, not under Competieve Pressure.

 

So this takes me back to the OP's question(You guys should know me and my round the valley way of getting there)-

 

It depends....

 

If it's a Southerner, nope, probably not, at least consistently.

 

If it's a Northerner, like my Bud or Thrill?

 

I'll bet on em every single time

 

Stay well Gals & Gents

 

My Best,

RP

 

You always bring it Richard with great posts.

 

Richard and I have played with a lot of the same greats he speaks of and there are some serious scratch players that could do it without question. I actually think any legit scratch or plus could at Augusta but they would have to play one of the best ball striking rounds they have played up till then...now let me define legit scratch or plus. If you can play any course and shoot around even or a few under the first time you have seen it then you are a legit scratch. If you can tee it up in tournaments at different courses that you don't regularly play and shoot even or under par then you are a legit plus. I'm not talking shooting the rating. I am talking shooting the actual score relative to the number on the card.

 

One of my closest friends in life is a long time Oakmont member and 7 time club champion. Nobody has won more club championships there than him ( as is my understanding). The very first time I played Oakmont was in October of 2007. The weekend before then shut down for the season. It was me, my Dad, my buddy and his father (also a member at Oakmont). My buddy says what tees do you want to play from and I said the US Open Tees. He just laughed and shook his head with a smile and said "haha, ok my man". I said "why would I come all this way to play anything BUT the US Open tees?!?" He said " Well this course is brutally tough and want you to have fun, it can be a long day out here from back here". I listened but was determined to play from those tees. He said "what do you think you can shoot from back here?"...I said " I am under no illusion that I am going to come out here and bring the course to it's knees but I would like to think being a plus handicap I can shoot around 76-77 first time". He laughed out loud and said "Ok, I will bet you dinner you don't break 80"..I said "seriously? " He said " yeah, I have never brought a scratch golfer out here and had them break 80 from these tees the first time they play it". Well...83 strokes later I was humbled. The only highlight was I birdied 16 the long par 3 with a front right pin which was impossible to get close to but I somehow managed to hit a fat 3 wood short and to the left of the front bunker and it started rolling and caught the slope and took a 90 deg turn right and settle about 3' from the hole. PURE LUCK. hahaha. It was a humbling day to say the least and in that moment my respect for PGA Tour players who can not only win but can compete on a track like that. Other worldly.

 

Now the second time I played it we played from those tees and I shot 72. I holed out from the fairway on number 2 for an eagle and drove the green on 17 and left a 15' eagle putt about 2" short from going in for a second eagle 2 for the day. Granted, Oakmont is Oakmont and the rough is deep, even on normal days and I would say it was on the same level as a normal PGA tour event, but not a major. Green speeds are legendary but that wasn't what made me nervous. I play at clubs here in Texas that regularly cut their greens to about 12-12.5 ( and yes that is dead accurate) for short periods of time or for tournaments. I have also played in some seriously big amateur tournaments that cut the greens that fast as well including Oak Hill, Oakmont (Fownes four ball), Winged Foot, Champions Golf Club, Carlton Woods to name a few. What got me the first time was my inability to know where to hit it into the greens to leave myself with reasonable shots at birdies. I was constantly putting my first putt with hopes of leaving a reasonable shot at par because I had hit it to a part of the green that made it almost impossible to stop the ball. For example, The first time I played, number 2 my buddy told me the whole time we were walking the hole, DON'T HIT IT ABOVE THE HOLE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T BE TO THE LEFT OF THE HOLE OR BEHIND IT. Well I hit one a little long and ended up on the back fringe and had a putt that screamed down the green after tapping it about 6" and had a 20' putt coming back for par. I don't think Augusta is as tough as Oakmont on tournament conditions. I think it could be done at Augusta but man all the mystical grass and branches of Sherwood Forest would have to align...as well as catch some seriously great breaks. No caddy? pfft. Get out of here. Won't happen

[MtlJeff]

I still would love to know the slope and rating of Augusta National with Sunday pins.Or for that matter a course like Oakmont in US Open conditions.

 

I think 85 is a reasonable target for a scratch player as have posted. But a tricked up major course, could that legit get to an over 80 rating?

 

I'd wager that Oakmont, or really any other US Open course on Sunday pins would be tougher. That tourney sets up Sunday so that guys are grinding for par and trying to hold on to win. At least the Masters sets up the course for guys to score on Sunday. That would help the scratch golfer, even though some pins definitely carry a certain amount of risk/reward.

 

I would definitely like my chances at Augusta over Oakmont in US open conditions. I am not sure how i would even advance the ball out of some of the rough you get there.

 

When we played Torrey, as mentioned it was getting to be PGA tour rough at least for the normal tour event. On #7 i pulled one right and had like 170 in, but it took us 4-5 minutes to even find the ball, when we did the most i could get on it was lob wedge and advance it maybe 30 yards. That was some of the worst rough on the course according to our caddy. I can't imagine 18 holes of that. You have a bad driving round you might not break 100

[Forged4ever]

 

The ones we played were roughly 6800 if I recall. It's likely they were two up from tournament on some holes yes

 

I think you guys played two up if it was under 7000.

 

So I'm a 4 right now, and I played Torrey back in June from the back tees they have set up (7051) and shot 78. Rough was thick, greens were rolling pretty well, it can't have been far off the farmers conditions. I might not have played well from 7600, but I'm pretty sure I would have broken 85 that day from those tees. Fun fact I was with a friend who is a really good college player at a top ranked D1 school, he played the back edge of the back tee and shot even, it was cool to watch.

 

Now I know I'm a poor example of a 4 because I used to be better, my putting and short game is much better than most 4s due to past experience, and as my driving is improving I'll probably be a solid scratch next year, so I'm not really a run of the mill 4 I'm more like a 0 who is a 4 right now because I drive it bad. BUT, I'm pretty sure I can break 85 at Augusta right now under tournament COURSE conditions (eg no crowds). I'm a good putter, I have all the shots around the greens, and I can get it around well enough from tee to green to score. 85 just isn't that high of a benchmark, I just started playing again this year after like 4 years off and yeah I had some sketchy high 80s rounds at the beginning but since then I think my worst is 84, and I sucked that day!

 

Now as far as breaking 80 in tournament course conditions at Augusta right now that would be a feat. Do I think I could do it? Possibly, but I wouldn't put my chances at better than 1/5. That being said if I was playing solid scratch golf could I do it? Yeah, I think chances would be good that I could. We aren't talking about playing in front of crowds and with TV cameras around, just a long golf course with fast greens, it's not that big of a deal.

Exactly!!

 

This is obviously just my .03 worth and we've addressed this in various forms and scenarios previously, i.e., "4~ versus LPGA Player," etc. and while the numbers have changed, the "game's" still the same, lol.

 

My thoughts are that there are two types of "scratches," one who has traveled "North" to that territory from "Plus," some, such as Thrill and the guy that I'm about to speak of(again, lol), having been deeper than others, though "Elite" and "Competitive" Plus Ams, of which I would put my old self in the "Competitive" category though below Elite, have "been there done that" to varying degrees and levels.

 

Do many, such as Thrill and my Friend, who was a DI AA, Walker Cupper and had his Tour card for two seasons(1986 & 1987) before he tried to "perfect" his swing and, well, he joined his father's multi-million dollar company two years later, stay at this physical level after having stepped back and out of the competitive arena? Of course not however they can recall the swings, shots and rounds of days gone by and most importantly, the VISIONS & FEELINGS of those swings and shots where as someone who does not have these swings shots and rounds in their bank has nothing to draw on.

 

Simply, they are at scratch to 4~ because life got in the way.

 

Though their physical game may wax and wane, however the thoughts, the focus, the VISIONS and the FEELINGS are still there and unlike the physical game, which is harder to turn on and off, they can flip into "Plus Mode" and basically turn back the clock and while they may or may not Play to their past peak level, they can lay a serious whuppin on 99.5%+'of those sharing the tee with em.

 

My fiend that I mentioned above was a 1.2~ at Oakmont(mostly shats & giggle rounds as he as family and his position as CEO of the ole man's company take up most of his time) went out the week before the '16 Open with Bob Ford, David Fehety and Monte and he was low man with a 66. He then put the sticks away and didn't Play for 5-6 weeks and had a ho-hum 72 in the Inter-Club Swat, which though it is weekly, he might Play 3-4 times a year.

 

Could he break 85 from the tourney tees at Augusta?

 

He went 74-77 last season.

 

As a 2ish~

 

Then ya have the other group of "scratch" golfers~

 

Those that have travelled "south" to this level, and while they have probably shot under par, it probably hasn't been in a Tourney or for money, and while they have the swing, the stroke and the game in all likelihood to Play at Plus, what they lack, and I cannot stress enough that if ya haven't "been there done that" you have no friggin clue just how important this is, and that is that they lack the MENTAL game.

 

Their mind does not have the thoughts, pictures, visions or most importantly, the FEELINGS of a successful stroke/swing to call on as they stand behind the ball and go through their PSR-

 

A very very very few have "tricked" their mind into believing that they have "been there done that" due to thousands and tens of thousands of mental visualization "reps," so they exhibit the calm confidence and self belief that tells them that they WILL execute this shot, not that they CAN execute the shot.

 

Hell, anyone CAN execute a shot, and maybe do it under pressure, but to Play at the level necessary to Play at Plus?

 

Nah, ain't gonna happen, not under Competieve Pressure.

 

So this takes me back to the OP's question(You guys should know me and my round the valley way of getting there???))-

 

It depends....

 

If it's a Southerner, nope, probably not, at least consistently.

 

If it's a Northerner, like my Bud or Thrill?

 

I'll bet on em every single time?

 

Stay well Gals & Gents?

 

My Best,

RP

 

You always bring it Richard with great posts.

 

Richard and I have played with a lot of the same greats he speaks of and there are some serious scratch players that could do it without question. I actually think any legit scratch or plus could at Augusta but they would have to play one of the best ball striking rounds they have played up till then...now let me define legit scratch or plus. If you can play any course and shoot around even or a few under the first time you have seen it then you are a legit scratch. If you can tee it up in tournaments at different courses that you don't regularly play and shoot even or under par then you are a legit plus. I'm not talking shooting the rating. I am talking shooting the actual score relative to the number on the card.

 

One of my closest friends in life is a long time Oakmont member and 7 time club champion. Nobody has won more club championships there than him ( as is my understanding). The very first time I played Oakmont was in October of 2007. The weekend before then shut down for the season. It was me, my Dad, my buddy and his father (also a member at Oakmont). My buddy says what tees do you want to play from and I said the US Open Tees. He just laughed and shook his head with a smile and said "haha, ok my man". I said "why would I come all this way to play anything BUT the US Open tees?!?" He said " Well this course is brutally tough and want you to have fun, it can be a long day out here from back here". I listened but was determined to play from those tees. He said "what do you think you can shoot from back here?"...I said " I am under no illusion that I am going to come out here and bring the course to it's knees but I would like to think being a plus handicap I can shoot around 76-77 first time". He laughed out loud and said "Ok, I will bet you dinner you don't break 80"..I said "seriously? " He said " yeah, I have never brought a scratch golfer out here and had them break 80 from these tees the first time they play it". Well...83 strokes later I was humbled. The only highlight was I birdied 16 the long par 3 with a front right pin which was impossible to get close to but I somehow managed to hit a fat 3 wood short and to the left of the front bunker and it started rolling and caught the slope and took a 90 deg turn right and settle about 3' from the hole. PURE LUCK. hahaha. It was a humbling day to say the least and in that moment my respect for PGA Tour players who can not only win but can compete on a track like that. Other worldly.

 

Now the second time I played it we played from those tees and I shot 72. I holed out from the fairway on number 2 for an eagle and drove the green on 17 and left a 15' eagle putt about 2" short from going in for a second eagle 2 for the day. Granted, Oakmont is Oakmont and the rough is deep, even on normal days and I would say it was on the same level as a normal PGA tour event, but not a major. Green speeds are legendary but that wasn't what made me nervous. I play at clubs here in Texas that regularly cut their greens to about 12-12.5 ( and yes that is dead accurate) for short periods of time or for tournaments. I have also played in some seriously big amateur tournaments that cut the greens that fast as well including Oak Hill, Oakmont (Fownes four ball), Winged Foot, Champions Golf Club, Carlton Woods to name a few. What got me the first time was my inability to know where to hit it into the greens to leave myself with reasonable shots at birdies. I was constantly putting my first putt with hopes of leaving a reasonable shot at par because I had hit it to a part of the green that made it almost impossible to stop the ball. For example, The first time I played, number 2 my buddy told me the whole time we were walking the hole, DON'T HIT IT ABOVE THE HOLE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T BE TO THE LEFT OF THE HOLE OR BEHIND IT. Well I hit one a little long and ended up on the back fringe and had a putt that screamed down the green after tapping it about 6" and had a 20' putt coming back for par. I don't think Augusta is as tough as Oakmont on tournament conditions. I think it could be done at Augusta but man all the mystical grass and branches of Sherwood Forest would have to align...as well as catch some seriously great breaks. No caddy? pfft. Get out of here. Won't happen

Hey Bro, I hope all's well?

 

Dick Stephens has 8 President's Cups(Oakmont's Club Championship's name) and your Boy is right behind him in the books with his seven however his feats are truly amazing as he has won in FOUR decades.

 

He's the friggin Sam Snead of Oakmont, lol

 

Put it this way. You have Kirk's Friend, then you've got a bunch of former DI Players, one, Brett Bergman, a former two-time Captain at Villanova who beat up on Keegan a number of times in both team matches and the Big East Championships(Keegan wen to St. John's) and then ya have the old war horses like the guy I've spoken of above, Frankie Fuhrer III bringing up the "rear."

 

What's the winning score for the 54-hole Championship?

 

Put it this way...

 

If you go 75, 75, 75 you're probably gonna win by a few

 

Where else is someone gonna go +15 across 54 holes and win a Club Championship?

 

Our Club, a strong Player's Club, had/has 5-6 DI Players Playing in our Championship, and back when I won, I think the most we had was 3, and a few years none. We had some Ivy League boys but I don't consider them DI, lol

 

Oakmont has Tar Heels, Blue Devils, Buckeyes and Nittany Lions, and then Guys like Kirk's Bud, who whups all of their arses.

 

And if you told em they could take +15 and sit it out in the Club House, not a single one wouldn't take ya up on that, lmao

 

It's crazy, lol

 

Yea, Oakmont can be a bear.

 

Like Kirk said, and I don't recall another course that I've ever Played where if you hit the green in regulation, you can leave the hole with a double, not a bogie, a double, if you you don't put your ball on the "right" side of the hole.

 

That's a hell of a story and feat to walk off 16 with a 2!!

 

That hole has brought Ams and Pros to their knees and actually had me in tears back in 2009???

 

I don't wanna talk about it, lmao. How do ya go 242 yds, leave yourself 26-27' to the cup and walk off with a 5???

 

I don't wanna talk about it, lol

 

Well, I hope that you're having a nice season Bro!!

 

You're in Maddie's and my thoughts?

 

Stay well?

Richard

[KirkNo-yes]

The ones we played were roughly 6800 if I recall. It's likely they were two up from tournament on some holes yes

 

I think you guys played two up if it was under 7000.

 

So I'm a 4 right now, and I played Torrey back in June from the back tees they have set up (7051) and shot 78. Rough was thick, greens were rolling pretty well, it can't have been far off the farmers conditions. I might not have played well from 7600, but I'm pretty sure I would have broken 85 that day from those tees. Fun fact I was with a friend who is a really good college player at a top ranked D1 school, he played the back edge of the back tee and shot even, it was cool to watch.

 

Now I know I'm a poor example of a 4 because I used to be better, my putting and short game is much better than most 4s due to past experience, and as my driving is improving I'll probably be a solid scratch next year, so I'm not really a run of the mill 4 I'm more like a 0 who is a 4 right now because I drive it bad. BUT, I'm pretty sure I can break 85 at Augusta right now under tournament COURSE conditions (eg no crowds). I'm a good putter, I have all the shots around the greens, and I can get it around well enough from tee to green to score. 85 just isn't that high of a benchmark, I just started playing again this year after like 4 years off and yeah I had some sketchy high 80s rounds at the beginning but since then I think my worst is 84, and I sucked that day!

 

Now as far as breaking 80 in tournament course conditions at Augusta right now that would be a feat. Do I think I could do it? Possibly, but I wouldn't put my chances at better than 1/5. That being said if I was playing solid scratch golf could I do it? Yeah, I think chances would be good that I could. We aren't talking about playing in front of crowds and with TV cameras around, just a long golf course with fast greens, it's not that big of a deal.

Exactly!!

 

This is obviously just my .03 worth and we've addressed this in various forms and scenarios previously, i.e., "4~ versus LPGA Player," etc. and while the numbers have changed, the "game's" still the same, lol.

 

My thoughts are that there are two types of "scratches," one who has traveled "North" to that territory from "Plus," some, such as Thrill and the guy that I'm about to speak of(again, lol), having been deeper than others, though "Elite" and "Competitive" Plus Ams, of which I would put my old self in the "Competitive" category though below Elite, have "been there done that" to varying degrees and levels.

 

Do many, such as Thrill and my Friend, who was a DI AA, Walker Cupper and had his Tour card for two seasons(1986 & 1987) before he tried to "perfect" his swing and, well, he joined his father's multi-million dollar company two years later, stay at this physical level after having stepped back and out of the competitive arena? Of course not however they can recall the swings, shots and rounds of days gone by and most importantly, the VISIONS & FEELINGS of those swings and shots where as someone who does not have these swings shots and rounds in their bank has nothing to draw on.

 

Simply, they are at scratch to 4~ because life got in the way.

 

Though their physical game may wax and wane, however the thoughts, the focus, the VISIONS and the FEELINGS are still there and unlike the physical game, which is harder to turn on and off, they can flip into "Plus Mode" and basically turn back the clock and while they may or may not Play to their past peak level, they can lay a serious whuppin on 99.5%+'of those sharing the tee with em.

 

My fiend that I mentioned above was a 1.2~ at Oakmont(mostly shats & giggle rounds as he as family and his position as CEO of the ole man's company take up most of his time) went out the week before the '16 Open with Bob Ford, David Fehety and Monte and he was low man with a 66. He then put the sticks away and didn't Play for 5-6 weeks and had a ho-hum 72 in the Inter-Club Swat, which though it is weekly, he might Play 3-4 times a year.

 

Could he break 85 from the tourney tees at Augusta?

 

He went 74-77 last season.

 

As a 2ish~

 

Then ya have the other group of "scratch" golfers~

 

Those that have travelled "south" to this level, and while they have probably shot under par, it probably hasn't been in a Tourney or for money, and while they have the swing, the stroke and the game in all likelihood to Play at Plus, what they lack, and I cannot stress enough that if ya haven't "been there done that" you have no friggin clue just how important this is, and that is that they lack the MENTAL game.

 

Their mind does not have the thoughts, pictures, visions or most importantly, the FEELINGS of a successful stroke/swing to call on as they stand behind the ball and go through their PSR-

 

A very very very few have "tricked" their mind into believing that they have "been there done that" due to thousands and tens of thousands of mental visualization "reps," so they exhibit the calm confidence and self belief that tells them that they WILL execute this shot, not that they CAN execute the shot.

 

Hell, anyone CAN execute a shot, and maybe do it under pressure, but to Play at the level necessary to Play at Plus?

 

Nah, ain't gonna happen, not under Competieve Pressure.

 

So this takes me back to the OP's question(You guys should know me and my round the valley way of getting there))-

 

It depends....

 

If it's a Southerner, nope, probably not, at least consistently.

 

If it's a Northerner, like my Bud or Thrill?

 

I'll bet on em every single time

 

Stay well Gals & Gents

 

My Best,

RP

 

You always bring it Richard with great posts.

 

Richard and I have played with a lot of the same greats he speaks of and there are some serious scratch players that could do it without question. I actually think any legit scratch or plus could at Augusta but they would have to play one of the best ball striking rounds they have played up till then...now let me define legit scratch or plus. If you can play any course and shoot around even or a few under the first time you have seen it then you are a legit scratch. If you can tee it up in tournaments at different courses that you don't regularly play and shoot even or under par then you are a legit plus. I'm not talking shooting the rating. I am talking shooting the actual score relative to the number on the card.

 

One of my closest friends in life is a long time Oakmont member and 7 time club champion. Nobody has won more club championships there than him ( as is my understanding). The very first time I played Oakmont was in October of 2007. The weekend before then shut down for the season. It was me, my Dad, my buddy and his father (also a member at Oakmont). My buddy says what tees do you want to play from and I said the US Open Tees. He just laughed and shook his head with a smile and said "haha, ok my man". I said "why would I come all this way to play anything BUT the US Open tees?!?" He said " Well this course is brutally tough and want you to have fun, it can be a long day out here from back here". I listened but was determined to play from those tees. He said "what do you think you can shoot from back here?"...I said " I am under no illusion that I am going to come out here and bring the course to it's knees but I would like to think being a plus handicap I can shoot around 76-77 first time". He laughed out loud and said "Ok, I will bet you dinner you don't break 80"..I said "seriously? " He said " yeah, I have never brought a scratch golfer out here and had them break 80 from these tees the first time they play it". Well...83 strokes later I was humbled. The only highlight was I birdied 16 the long par 3 with a front right pin which was impossible to get close to but I somehow managed to hit a fat 3 wood short and to the left of the front bunker and it started rolling and caught the slope and took a 90 deg turn right and settle about 3' from the hole. PURE LUCK. hahaha. It was a humbling day to say the least and in that moment my respect for PGA Tour players who can not only win but can compete on a track like that. Other worldly.

 

Now the second time I played it we played from those tees and I shot 72. I holed out from the fairway on number 2 for an eagle and drove the green on 17 and left a 15' eagle putt about 2" short from going in for a second eagle 2 for the day. Granted, Oakmont is Oakmont and the rough is deep, even on normal days and I would say it was on the same level as a normal PGA tour event, but not a major. Green speeds are legendary but that wasn't what made me nervous. I play at clubs here in Texas that regularly cut their greens to about 12-12.5 ( and yes that is dead accurate) for short periods of time or for tournaments. I have also played in some seriously big amateur tournaments that cut the greens that fast as well including Oak Hill, Oakmont (Fownes four ball), Winged Foot, Champions Golf Club, Carlton Woods to name a few. What got me the first time was my inability to know where to hit it into the greens to leave myself with reasonable shots at birdies. I was constantly putting my first putt with hopes of leaving a reasonable shot at par because I had hit it to a part of the green that made it almost impossible to stop the ball. For example, The first time I played, number 2 my buddy told me the whole time we were walking the hole, DON'T HIT IT ABOVE THE HOLE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T BE TO THE LEFT OF THE HOLE OR BEHIND IT. Well I hit one a little long and ended up on the back fringe and had a putt that screamed down the green after tapping it about 6" and had a 20' putt coming back for par. I don't think Augusta is as tough as Oakmont on tournament conditions. I think it could be done at Augusta but man all the mystical grass and branches of Sherwood Forest would have to align...as well as catch some seriously great breaks. No caddy? pfft. Get out of here. Won't happen

Hey Bro, I hope all's well

 

Dick Stephens has 8 President's Cups(Oakmont's Club Championship's name) and your Boy is right behind him in the books with his seven however his feats are truly amazing as he has won in FOUR decades.

 

He's the friggin Sam Snead of Oakmont, lol

 

Put it this way. You have Kirk's Friend, then you've got a bunch of former DI Players, one, Brett Bergman, a former two-time Captain at Villanova who beat up on Keegan a number of times in both team matches and the Big East Championships(Keegan wen to St. John's) and then ya have the old war horses like the guy I've spoken of above, Frankie Fuhrer III bringing up the "rear."

 

What's the winning score for the 54-hole Championship?

 

Put it this way...

 

If you go 75, 75, 75 you're probably gonna win by a few

 

Where else is someone gonna go +15 across 54 holes and win a Club Championship?

 

Our Club, a strong Player's Club, had/has 5-6 DI Players Playing in our Championship, and back when I won, I think the most we had was 3, and a few years none. We had some Ivy League boys but I don't consider them DI, lol

 

Oakmont has Tar Heels, Blue Devils, Buckeyes and Nittany Lions, and then Guys like Kirk's Bud, who whups all of their arses.

 

And if you told em they could take +15 and sit it out in the Club House, not a single one wouldn't take ya up on that, lmao

 

It's crazy, lol

 

Yea, Oakmont can be a bear.

 

Like Kirk said, and I don't recall another course that I've ever Played where if you hit the green in regulation, you can leave the hole with a double, not a bogie, a double, if you you don't put your ball on the "right" side of the hole.

 

That's a hell of a story and feat to walk off 16 with a 2!!

 

That hole has brought Ams and Pros to their knees and actually had me in tears back in 2009

 

I don't wanna talk about it, lmao. How do ya go 242 yds, leave yourself 26-27' to the cup and walk off with a 5???

 

I don't wanna talk about it, lol

 

Well, I hope that you're having a nice season Bro!!

 

You're in Maddie's and my thoughts

 

Stay well

Richard

 

 

hahaha. Great stuff Richard. I had some vague memory that there might be one more guys ahead of my buddy but couldn't remember if I had dreamt that or not. He is a stud for sure and a humble one at that. His oldest son is following in his footsteps and is playing D1 golf now. So many damn good golfers up there.

 

As for my season, not bad. a few top 10's in some pretty good size tourneys and win here and there which have netted some invites to tourneys that raised even my eyebrows so I have that going for me at least hahaha. Feeling pretty good going into the mid am this year. This year might have been the year I played my last US Am qualifier though. hard to remember when shooting 141 doesn't even get you an alternate spot !!! 72-69 and I slamming the trunk. I was the second oldest player in the field and felt it...time to leave it to the young guns. appreciate the good words my man. I keep you in my prayers daily, I need to reach out more. You two are the best and one of the few reasons I stay on the site. Love you buddy

[Forged4ever]

Back at ya?

 

Always,

Richard

[Shilgy]

 

 

You always bring it Richard with great posts.

 

Richard and I have played with a lot of the same greats he speaks of and there are some serious scratch players that could do it without question. I actually think any legit scratch or plus could at Augusta but they would have to play one of the best ball striking rounds they have played up till then...now let me define legit scratch or plus. If you can play any course and shoot around even or a few under the first time you have seen it then you are a legit scratch. If you can tee it up in tournaments at different courses that you don't regularly play and shoot even or under par then you are a legit plus. I'm not talking shooting the rating. I am talking shooting the actual score relative to the number on the card.

 

One of my closest friends in life is a long time Oakmont member and 7 time club champion. Nobody has won more club championships there than him ( as is my understanding). The very first time I played Oakmont was in October of 2007. The weekend before then shut down for the season. It was me, my Dad, my buddy and his father (also a member at Oakmont). My buddy says what tees do you want to play from and I said the US Open Tees. He just laughed and shook his head with a smile and said "haha, ok my man". I said "why would I come all this way to play anything BUT the US Open tees?!?" He said " Well this course is brutally tough and want you to have fun, it can be a long day out here from back here". I listened but was determined to play from those tees. He said "what do you think you can shoot from back here?"...I said " I am under no illusion that I am going to come out here and bring the course to it's knees but I would like to think being a plus handicap I can shoot around 76-77 first time". He laughed out loud and said "Ok, I will bet you dinner you don't break 80"..I said "seriously? " He said " yeah, I have never brought a scratch golfer out here and had them break 80 from these tees the first time they play it". Well...83 strokes later I was humbled. The only highlight was I birdied 16 the long par 3 with a front right pin which was impossible to get close to but I somehow managed to hit a fat 3 wood short and to the left of the front bunker and it started rolling and caught the slope and took a 90 deg turn right and settle about 3' from the hole. PURE LUCK. hahaha. It was a humbling day to say the least and in that moment my respect for PGA Tour players who can not only win but can compete on a track like that. Other worldly.

 

Now the second time I played it we played from those tees and I shot 72. I holed out from the fairway on number 2 for an eagle and drove the green on 17 and left a 15' eagle putt about 2" short from going in for a second eagle 2 for the day. Granted, Oakmont is Oakmont and the rough is deep, even on normal days and I would say it was on the same level as a normal PGA tour event, but not a major. Green speeds are legendary but that wasn't what made me nervous. I play at clubs here in Texas that regularly cut their greens to about 12-12.5 ( and yes that is dead accurate) for short periods of time or for tournaments. I have also played in some seriously big amateur tournaments that cut the greens that fast as well including Oak Hill, Oakmont (Fownes four ball), Winged Foot, Champions Golf Club, Carlton Woods to name a few. What got me the first time was my inability to know where to hit it into the greens to leave myself with reasonable shots at birdies. I was constantly putting my first putt with hopes of leaving a reasonable shot at par because I had hit it to a part of the green that made it almost impossible to stop the ball. For example, The first time I played, number 2 my buddy told me the whole time we were walking the hole, DON'T HIT IT ABOVE THE HOLE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T BE TO THE LEFT OF THE HOLE OR BEHIND IT. Well I hit one a little long and ended up on the back fringe and had a putt that screamed down the green after tapping it about 6" and had a 20' putt coming back for par. I don't think Augusta is as tough as Oakmont on tournament conditions. I think it could be done at Augusta but man all the mystical grass and branches of Sherwood Forest would have to align...as well as catch some seriously great breaks. No caddy? pfft. Get out of here. Won't happen

This is starting to sound like Bill Clinton and definitions. This whole time I was thinking a scratch was a zero handicap. Now he's a plus five or six. At least. :) If he can go to any course and shoot even or one or two under par regardless of the course rating? That's certainly not a zero cap and a different discussion.

New answer, easy and obvious, is yes he can break 80-85 and will just as likely break par based on this definition of scratch.

[playa]

So again this is a fun round, no pressure except that of a friendly bet, no fans or cameras. Sunday pin locations and tournament green speeds

 

If we are saying a scratch player cannot do it, then we are arguing that the course rating should be around 84-85?

 

That would make it the toughest course in America by a wide margin yes?

 

Again this is not tournament pressure, there's no pressure here. Just a round of golf at a very tough course.

 

Ben rothlesberger shot 84 on a legit US Open setup (Bethpage) from the pro tees a few years back on TV and he was like a 3 or something at the time.

So it can be done. But I bet you could find a boatload of guys on lower cap than him who shot over 90 same day. I acknowledge it is possible, but imo it is still in the (very) highly unlikely category.