Crossfield and 27-2

[Yrrdead]

Hey guys was watching Crossfields Daily Vlog and today's was about rules. The very first rule he covered was about Provisional Balls. I'm only half paying attention and then he says if you've hit a provisional ball , declared provisional properly etc. Then you get up and find small red staked (lateral water hazard ) ditch with your ball plunked in the middle. He then states "That your "provisional" is no longer a provisional and instead is the ball in play".

 

That seemed off to me and after a few readings of 27-2.a,b.c. I still feel that isn't correct, is this a R&A/USGA difference. Or is this a CoC type deal that pro's deal with. Or am I misinterpreting the rule?

 

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[Sawgrass]

Hey guys was watching Crossfields Daily Vlog and today's was about rules. The very first rule he covered was about Provisional Balls. I'm only half paying attention and then he says if you've hit a provisional ball , declared provisional properly etc. Then you get up and find small red staked (lateral water hazard ) ditch with your ball plunked in the middle. He then states "That your "provisional" is no longer a provisional and instead is the ball in play".

 

That seemed off to me and after a few readings of 27-2.a,b.c. I still feel that isn't correct, is this a R&A/USGA difference. Or is this a CoC type deal that pro's deal with. Or am I misinterpreting the rule?

 

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

You are absolutely correct. If you had the right to declare the provisional (as you stated) and then discovered that your ball was either known to be in the WH or virtually certain to be, you MUST abandon the provisional and deal with WH relief, even if you choose relief option "a" for which you'd have to go back and put a new ball in play from where you previously hit the provisional.

 

I'd hazard a guess (pun intended) that the confusion comes from announcing a provisional which you were not entitled to hit (i.e. if there was no reasonable possibility that the ball was OB or lost in a WH), in which case you have instead put a new ball in play. In that situation, finding the original ball in the WH would be irrelevant, you may not play it.

[Yrrdead]

Thanks for the rapid response Saw.

 

Here is a link to the video in question;

 

[Augster]

It's amazing to me how people still can botch these simple, every day, rules.

 

Or maybe it's me "every day" as I usually have to hit 3+ provisionals per round. If you're going to use a rule that often, you'd better know it. Like opposite margin relief on red hazards.

 

Here's the Decision.

 

27-2a/2.5

Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

 

Q. A player’s tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

 

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 – see Rule 27-2c.

[Sawgrass]

Thanks for the rapid response Saw.

 

Here is a link to the video in question;

 

[media=]

[/media]

OMG! Stop watching that guy for Rules advice. I saw the first segment which you described . . . the first pass I felt that the problem may have been that the two guys didn't accurately articule the issue of whether the ball may also be lost outside the WH -- but then he restated it an an absolutely wrong way -- that if you're hitting toward a WH you may not hit a provisional. He's just flat out wrong, here's the Rule:

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

 

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

Note that a ball that "may" be in a WH often also "may" be lost outside it. That's what justifies the provisional. Here is an explicit Decision:

 

27-2a/2.2

 

Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

 

Q.Is it true that, if a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

 

A.No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c.

 

Then I watched part of the next segment where he incorrectly tells viewers that they may not remove LIs from their putting line by using their club. Dead wrong again. While it's true that you'd be violating a rule if you simultaneously pressed down a spike mark, you are explicitly allowed to use any means you choose to remove LIs from your line:

 

Again, here's an explicit Decision:

 

16-1a/10

 

Loose Impediments Brushed Along Line of Putt Rather Than to Side

 

Q.In removing loose impediments from his line of putt by brushing with a putter, a player brushed along the line for about one foot before brushing the impediments to the side. Did the player infringe Rule 16-1?

 

A.Under Rule 16-1a, a player is allowed to brush aside loose impediments on his line of putt. The casual movement of the putter along the line of putt would not be a breach of the Rules unless in the process the player did something to the putting green that improved his line of putt, (e.g., pressed down a raised tuft of grass), in which case he would be in breach of Rule 13-2.

 

 

Last, there is zero difference between the USGA's and R&A's Rules of Golf and application of those Rules. I hope Mr. Crossfield issues a correction, he's doing a lot of harm.

[R70TLY]

Thanks for the rapid response Saw.

 

Here is a link to the video in question;

 

[media=]

[/media]

OMG! Stop watching that guy for Rules advice. I saw the first segment which you described . . . the first pass I felt that the problem may have been that the two guys didn't accurately articule the issue of whether the ball may also be lost outside the WH -- but then he restated it an an absolutely wrong way -- that if you're hitting toward a WH you may not hit a provisional. He's just flat out wrong, here's the Rule:

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

 

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

Note that a ball that "may" be in a WH often also "may" be lost outside it. That's what justifies the provisional. Here is an explicit Decision:

 

27-2a/2.2

 

Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

 

Q.Is it true that, if a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

 

A.No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c.

 

Then I watched part of the next segment where he incorrectly tells viewers that they may not remove LIs from their putting line by using their club. Dead wrong again. While it's true that you'd be violating a rule if you simultaneously pressed down a spike mark, you are explicitly allowed to use any means you choose to remove LIs from your line:

 

Again, here's an explicit Decision:

 

16-1a/10

 

Loose Impediments Brushed Along Line of Putt Rather Than to Side

 

Q.In removing loose impediments from his line of putt by brushing with a putter, a player brushed along the line for about one foot before brushing the impediments to the side. Did the player infringe Rule 16-1?

 

A.Under Rule 16-1a, a player is allowed to brush aside loose impediments on his line of putt. The casual movement of the putter along the line of putt would not be a breach of the Rules unless in the process the player did something to the putting green that improved his line of putt, (e.g., pressed down a raised tuft of grass), in which case he would be in breach of Rule 13-2.

 

 

Last, there is zero difference between the USGA's and R&A's Rules of Golf and application of those Rules. I hope Mr. Crossfield issues a correction, he's doing a lot of harm.

[Medic]

Mark Crossfield has been doing some instructional videos centered on clearing up the rules and his latest one talks about proper use of a Provisional.

 

During the video he said that if you have hit a provisional and there is a possibility that your first shot is still in play but your provisional is short of it, "just keep hitting the provisional until you're up to the first shot".

 

This part of the video confused me a bit.

 

I thought that if you hit the provisional a second time it's in play now and the first shot, regardless of finding it or not, is out of play.

 

And my second question - he said don't bother hitting a provisional if your ball went into a hazard - not allowed. But what about those times when you hit your ball over a blind stand of trees, thought it was OB, hit a provisional, and then went to the point where your first shot went only to find a hidden lake or other hazard - does the provisional in any way play into things now? Can you proceed with using it at that point or do you attempt to figure out where best to take your drop and play from there?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Here's the video BTW....

 

[sui generis]

See http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1547954-crossfield-and-27-2/

[HitEmTrue]

Why did this thread go in a circle?

 

Crossfield needs to spend some time learning the rules. Or stop talking about them.

 

[Sawgrass]

Mark Crossfield has been doing some instructional videos centered on clearing up the rules and his latest one talks about proper use of a Provisional.

 

During the video he said that if you have hit a provisional and there is a possibility that your first shot is still in play but your provisional is short of it, "just keep hitting the provisional until you're up to the first shot".

 

This part of the video confused me a bit.

 

I thought that if you hit the provisional a second time it's in play now and the first shot, regardless of finding it or not, is out of play.

 

And my second question - he said don't bother hitting a provisional if your ball went into a hazard - not allowed. But what about those times when you hit your ball over a blind stand of trees, thought it was OB, hit a provisional, and then went to the point where your first shot went only to find a hidden lake or other hazard - does the provisional in any way play into things now? Can you proceed with using it at that point or do you attempt to figure out where best to take your drop and play from there?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Here's the video BTW....

 

[media=]

[/media]

Medic, so as to hopefully not confuse things, Rule 27-2 tells us that you were wrong in your understanding -- you may in fact hit a provisional two or three or more times with out it necessarily becoming the new ball in play. It's about where the original ball is likely to be, not about how many strokes it takes you to get your provisional there or past it. Here is the segment which addresses that specific. (I did not watch Crossfield's video to that point because I was in horror about what he said preceding that, but it seems like he had that bit right.)

 

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

 

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

[HoffTTM]

Other bits he says in there are wrong as well. Line of Putt does not extend past the hole and you can pick up impediments with your putter

[MountainKing]

In a tournament last year I kind of had this situation. Hit a shot that I thought was OB, hit a provisional. My original ball was found and unplayable and taking a drop would provide no relief due to the amount of trees in the area. I was hoping to play the provisional at that point but if I recall once your original ball is found (unless it was found ob) the provisional is no longer in play, meaning if I wanted to take an unplayable and replay the tee shot I'd have to go back and re-tee again...which is what I did. Hopefully I remember that correctly, kind of a dumb rule if you're talking about trying to speed up play.

[sui generis]

In a tournament last year I kind of had this situation. Hit a shot that I thought was OB, hit a provisional. My original ball was found and unplayable and taking a drop would provide no relief due to the amount of trees in the area. I was hoping to play the provisional at that point but if I recall once your original ball is found (unless it was found ob) the provisional is no longer in play, meaning if I wanted to take an unplayable and replay the tee shot I'd have to go back and re-tee again...which is what I did. Hopefully I remember that correctly, kind of a dumb rule if you're talking about trying to speed up play.

 

The purpose of Rule 28 is to afford the player three different options in the event they decide that the ball cannot be played from its present position. Imagine golf without Rule 28 . . . ball in an unplayable situation, well, replay the stroke under Rule 27-1a or go home. It has nothing to do with pace of play.

[Your-away!]

Hey guys was watching Crossfields Daily Vlog and today's was about rules. The very first rule he covered was about Provisional Balls. I'm only half paying attention and then he says if you've hit a provisional ball , declared provisional properly etc. Then you get up and find small red staked (lateral water hazard ) ditch with your ball plunked in the middle. He then states "That your "provisional" is no longer a provisional and instead is the ball in play".

 

That seemed off to me and after a few readings of 27-2.a,b.c. I still feel that isn't correct, is this a R&A/USGA difference. Or is this a CoC type deal that pro's deal with. Or am I misinterpreting the rule?

 

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26.

^^^^^ isnt this what Crossfield said?? ^^^^

If you play a provisional and your ball is in the water hazard, you cant then drop, you have to play the provisional

[Your-away!]

Hey guys was watching Crossfields Daily Vlog and today's was about rules. The very first rule he covered was about Provisional Balls. I'm only half paying attention and then he says if you've hit a provisional ball , declared provisional properly etc. Then you get up and find small red staked (lateral water hazard ) ditch with your ball plunked in the middle. He then states "That your "provisional" is no longer a provisional and instead is the ball in play".

 

That seemed off to me and after a few readings of 27-2.a,b.c. I still feel that isn't correct, is this a R&A/USGA difference. Or is this a CoC type deal that pro's deal with. Or am I misinterpreting the rule?

 

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26.

^^^^^ isnt this what Crossfield said?? ^^^^

If you play a provisional and your ball is in the water hazard, you cant then drop, you have to play the provisional

So what i mean is its not actually a provisional is it if its in water, i think thats what he means, its not actually a provisional, your ball is in play

[Cancun]

Your-away: You need to make up your mind . My comments in red. Have a great weekend!

 

 

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional CORRECT and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26. CORRECT

 

^^^^^ isnt this what Crossfield said?? ^^^^ I didn’t actually watch the video, since it’s been pointed out that he’s wrong…

 

If you play a provisional and your ball is in the water hazard, you cant then drop, you have to play the provisional INCORRECT and actually the opposite of what you wrote above

[Yrrdead]

Your-away: You need to make up your mind . My comments in red. Have a great weekend!

 

 

My interpretation is that as long as you believe that "the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds" I may play a provisional CORRECT and in regards to the water hazard if I find that it becomes "known or virtually certain" that my ball is instead inside a water hazard, then I abandon the provisional and instead proceed with Rule 26. CORRECT

 

^^^^^ isnt this what Crossfield said?? ^^^^ I didn’t actually watch the video, since it’s been pointed out that he’s wrong…

 

If you play a provisional and your ball is in the water hazard, you cant then drop, you have to play the provisional INCORRECT and actually the opposite of what you wrote above

 

What he wrote above were my lines. His last line was his and incorrect as you (and others) have pointed out.

[Colin L]

I'm impressed by the stamina of those who listened to this. I lost the will to do so after about 30 seconds of his wittering.

[Golfingfanatic]

The rule as I understand it, goes like this.

If I am sure that the ball is in the hazard, I CANNOT hit a provisional.

If I am not sure that the ball is in the hazard, I may hit a provisional, but I can only abandon my provisional and take a drop if I identify the ball in the water.

Is that correct?

[sui generis]

The rule as I understand it, goes like this.

If I am sure that the ball is in the hazard, I CANNOT hit a provisional.

If I am not sure that the ball is in the hazard, I may hit a provisional, but I can only abandon my provisional and take a drop if I identify the ball in the water.

Is that correct?

 

From R27-2: If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1.

[Stuart_G]

The rule as I understand it, goes like this.

If I am sure that the ball is in the hazard, I CANNOT hit a provisional.

If I am not sure that the ball is in the hazard, I may hit a provisional, but I can only abandon my provisional and take a drop if I identify the ball in the water.

Is that correct?

 

No, to abandon the provisional (assuming you were allowed to hit one) only requires that you are virtually certain OR know for a fact that the ball was lost in the hazard. When you approach the area, you may find additional information or evidence of that virtual certainty that you may not have had available to you on the tee. Typically this would be evidence to support that there was no longer any chance that the ball could have been lost outside the water hazard.

[Sawgrass]

The rule as I understand it, goes like this.

If I am sure that the ball is in the hazard, I CANNOT hit a provisional.

If I am not sure that the ball is in the hazard, I may hit a provisional, but I can only abandon my provisional and take a drop if I identify the ball in the water.

Is that correct?

 

No, to abandon the provisional (assuming you were allowed to hit one) only requires that you are virtually certain OR know for a fact that the ball was lost in the hazard. When you approach the area, you may find additional information or evidence of that virtual certainty that you may not have had available to you on the tee. Typically this would be evidence to support that there was no longer any chance that the ball could have been lost outside the water hazard.

Or, you may discover that there is a water hazard present which prior to arriving you didn't even see.

[Golfingfanatic]

I see. Thanks for the clarifications guys

[MountainKing]

In a tournament last year I kind of had this situation. Hit a shot that I thought was OB, hit a provisional. My original ball was found and unplayable and taking a drop would provide no relief due to the amount of trees in the area. I was hoping to play the provisional at that point but if I recall once your original ball is found (unless it was found ob) the provisional is no longer in play, meaning if I wanted to take an unplayable and replay the tee shot I'd have to go back and re-tee again...which is what I did. Hopefully I remember that correctly, kind of a dumb rule if you're talking about trying to speed up play.

 

The purpose of Rule 28 is to afford the player three different options in the event they decide that the ball cannot be played from its present position. Imagine golf without Rule 28 . . . ball in an unplayable situation, well, replay the stroke under Rule 27-1a or go home. It has nothing to do with pace of play.

 

 

I know, I'm just complaining about hitting a provisional to prevent walking back to the tee then having to walk back to the tee anyway. It would be too easy to take advantage if it was written the way I want it to be. Moral of the story, stop hitting it wayward.

[SNIPERBBB]

In a tournament last year I kind of had this situation. Hit a shot that I thought was OB, hit a provisional. My original ball was found and unplayable and taking a drop would provide no relief due to the amount of trees in the area. I was hoping to play the provisional at that point but if I recall once your original ball is found (unless it was found ob) the provisional is no longer in play, meaning if I wanted to take an unplayable and replay the tee shot I'd have to go back and re-tee again...which is what I did. Hopefully I remember that correctly, kind of a dumb rule if you're talking about trying to speed up play.

 

The purpose of Rule 28 is to afford the player three different options in the event they decide that the ball cannot be played from its present position. Imagine golf without Rule 28 . . . ball in an unplayable situation, well, replay the stroke under Rule 27-1a or go home. It has nothing to do with pace of play.

 

 

I know, I'm just complaining about hitting a provisional to prevent walking back to the tee then having to walk back to the tee anyway. It would be too easy to take advantage if it was written the way I want it to be. Moral of the story, stop hitting it wayward.

 

2nd Moral of story: Dont go looking for a ball in the junk when its likely to not be playable and you got a decent provisional in play.

[ChaosTheory]

Here’s the problem. It’s not just Crossfield. Pose the same scenario to 20 other club pros and I bet at least half fail. Whether that is a rules problem or an pro problem can be debated.

[QEight]

In a tournament last year I kind of had this situation. Hit a shot that I thought was OB, hit a provisional. My original ball was found and unplayable and taking a drop would provide no relief due to the amount of trees in the area. I was hoping to play the provisional at that point but if I recall once your original ball is found (unless it was found ob) the provisional is no longer in play, meaning if I wanted to take an unplayable and replay the tee shot I'd have to go back and re-tee again...which is what I did. Hopefully I remember that correctly, kind of a dumb rule if you're talking about trying to speed up play.

 

The purpose of Rule 28 is to afford the player three different options in the event they decide that the ball cannot be played from its present position. Imagine golf without Rule 28 . . . ball in an unplayable situation, well, replay the stroke under Rule 27-1a or go home. It has nothing to do with pace of play.

 

 

I know, I'm just complaining about hitting a provisional to prevent walking back to the tee then having to walk back to the tee anyway. It would be too easy to take advantage if it was written the way I want it to be. Moral of the story, stop hitting it wayward.

 

2nd Moral of story: Dont go looking for a ball in the junk when its likely to not be playable and you got a decent provisional in play.

 

But before looking you do not know. And even with unplayable you may save a lot of distance. Unless you really need to go back. And even then all you are losing is some time.

[6Aces]

I know, I'm just complaining about hitting a provisional to prevent walking back to the tee then having to walk back to the tee anyway. It would be too easy to take advantage if it was written the way I want it to be. Moral of the story, stop hitting it wayward.

Imagine that the rules permitted you to play the provisional after finding your original ball unplayable and where the two club lengths and flag line relief options were not possible. And you had hit the provisional out of bounds.

[Sawgrass]

Here’s the problem. It’s not just Crossfield. Pose the same scenario to 20 other club pros and I bet at least half fail. Whether that is a rules problem or an pro problem can be debated.

I don't debate the fact that even pros may get confused by the Rules surrounding provisionals. But even if some pros have trouble with them, they should NOT be professing how to play if they don't know.

 

Spreading misinformation doesn't help!

[sui generis]

Here’s the problem. It’s not just Crossfield. Pose the same scenario to 20 other club pros and I bet at least half fail. Whether that is a rules problem or an pro problem can be debated.

I don't debate the fact that even pros may get confused by the Rules surrounding provisionals. But even if some pros have trouble with them, they should NOT be professing how to play if they don't know.

 

Spreading misinformation doesn't help!

 

Amen, one does NOT learn the Rules by osmosis.

 

It is often viewed as hard work, but compared to hitting a golf ball, learning the Rules is a doddle.