Stableford Scoring

[rogolf]

Did he say "stroke play competitions"? No, he did not. He's talking about games won or lost based on scores with a net double-bogey max.

 

Stableford is one such game but you can score a net double-bogey max game using "strokes" instead of "points" an reach the same exact result. The conversion of "Strokes" to "points" is a simply one-to-one correspondence, as long as the net double-bogey max limit is in place.

 

I think the term used was "low net", and to me, this implies a stroke play "competition" whether it's formal or casual.

 

That's probably an artifact of where one predominantly plays golf.

 

I've been a member of three different USA clubs and and overseas member for a couple years at a UK club. All of the daily play at each of those clubs was either Stableford (UK) or "points" or "quota" (USA) but they all feature a max score of either double bogey or net double bogey.

 

Nobody at the clubs I've belonged to has evinced interest in playing medal every day. For double-digit handicappers playing 100+ times a year in friendly low-stakes game, there's just nothing to be gained from a format that requires occasionally hitting a third ball off the tee or putting out for an 11 instead of picking up when you have a bad hole.

 

And pickup (aka dogfight, roll-up, bounce) groups don't really want to get into having players DQ from the day's game if they can't or won't finish a particular hole.

I agree with all you've said above, with the exception of max score. If you're not in the day's game for any hole, just pick up and go tend the flagstick. Your "score" is irrelevant for the game.

[Shilgy]

I blame Newby for this mess lol! :)

He asked what's wrong with Stableford and I gave my opinion of why converting to points was needless.

That's all this is. All this talk of stroke play comps is beside the point.

 

Play will guys! If you're in an area not yet under snow play well.

[North Butte]

Did he say "stroke play competitions"? No, he did not. He's talking about games won or lost based on scores with a net double-bogey max.

 

Stableford is one such game but you can score a net double-bogey max game using "strokes" instead of "points" an reach the same exact result. The conversion of "Strokes" to "points" is a simply one-to-one correspondence, as long as the net double-bogey max limit is in place.

 

I think the term used was "low net", and to me, this implies a stroke play "competition" whether it's formal or casual.

 

That's probably an artifact of where one predominantly plays golf.

 

I've been a member of three different USA clubs and and overseas member for a couple years at a UK club. All of the daily play at each of those clubs was either Stableford (UK) or "points" or "quota" (USA) but they all feature a max score of either double bogey or net double bogey.

 

Nobody at the clubs I've belonged to has evinced interest in playing medal every day. For double-digit handicappers playing 100+ times a year in friendly low-stakes game, there's just nothing to be gained from a format that requires occasionally hitting a third ball off the tee or putting out for an 11 instead of picking up when you have a bad hole.

 

And pickup (aka dogfight, roll-up, bounce) groups don't really want to get into having players DQ from the day's game if they can't or won't finish a particular hole.

I agree with all you've said above, with the exception of max score. If you're not in the day's game for any hole, just pick up and go tend the flagstick. Your "score" is irrelevant for the game.

 

No I'm talking about games played for money. Low stakes but money games.

 

We all show up at 1pm. Maybe a dozen or so of us. Put balls in a hat and draw teams. Each player's score on a team is added up and the best team takes the pot.

 

Whether it is "points" or the directly equivalent "score" it very much matters to the outcome. Nobody is interested in kicking a guy out of the game the first time he gets to six or seven strokes and puts the ball in his pocket (a "blob" in Stableford but exactly equivalent to writing down net double bogey number of strokes). And they sure as heck aren't going to stand around and wait for him to hack out some huge number just to finish the hole.

 

It's why daily play in UK (at the clubs I've seen) is almost universally Stableford. The difference is, the guys playing in the morning school at their UK club doesn't have to turn around and convert that Stableford score into a max-hole-score-limited pseudo-medal score to type into the GHIN computer afterward.

 

That's what Shilgy and I are on about. If you're going to play Stableford, pay off the bets based on Stableford, then turn around and convert "38 points" to an "82" for purposes of handicapping, why not just keep that final score all along?

[rogolf]

Did he say "stroke play competitions"? No, he did not. He's talking about games won or lost based on scores with a net double-bogey max.

 

Stableford is one such game but you can score a net double-bogey max game using "strokes" instead of "points" an reach the same exact result. The conversion of "Strokes" to "points" is a simply one-to-one correspondence, as long as the net double-bogey max limit is in place.

 

I think the term used was "low net", and to me, this implies a stroke play "competition" whether it's formal or casual.

 

That's probably an artifact of where one predominantly plays golf.

 

I've been a member of three different USA clubs and and overseas member for a couple years at a UK club. All of the daily play at each of those clubs was either Stableford (UK) or "points" or "quota" (USA) but they all feature a max score of either double bogey or net double bogey.

 

Nobody at the clubs I've belonged to has evinced interest in playing medal every day. For double-digit handicappers playing 100+ times a year in friendly low-stakes game, there's just nothing to be gained from a format that requires occasionally hitting a third ball off the tee or putting out for an 11 instead of picking up when you have a bad hole.

 

And pickup (aka dogfight, roll-up, bounce) groups don't really want to get into having players DQ from the day's game if they can't or won't finish a particular hole.

I agree with all you've said above, with the exception of max score. If you're not in the day's game for any hole, just pick up and go tend the flagstick. Your "score" is irrelevant for the game.

 

No I'm talking about games played for money. Low stakes but money games.

 

We all show up at 1pm. Maybe a dozen or so of us. Put balls in a hat and draw teams. Each player's score on a team is added up and the best team takes the pot.

 

Whether it is "points" or the directly equivalent "score" it very much matters to the outcome. Nobody is interested in kicking a guy out of the game the first time he gets to six or seven strokes and puts the ball in his pocket (a "blob" in Stableford but exactly equivalent to writing down net double bogey number of strokes). And they sure as heck aren't going to stand around and wait for him to hack out some huge number just to finish the hole.

 

It's why daily play in UK (at the clubs I've seen) is almost universally Stableford. The difference is, the guys playing in the morning school at their UK club doesn't have to turn around and convert that Stableford score into a max-hole-score-limited pseudo-medal score to type into the GHIN computer afterward.

 

That's what Shilgy and I are on about. If you're going to play Stableford, pay off the bets based on Stableford, then turn around and convert "38 points" to an "82" for purposes of handicapping, why not just keep that final score all along?

 

Other than Stableford, we never play a game where every ball in a group will count towards the group score so nobody gets kicked out of the game for picking up when they're in the deep doo-doo.

[cardoustie]

I have two answers

 

If you are playing with a -1 for doubles or worse, it can be tougher on high cappers .. expecially if the pts are -1, 0, 1, 2 , 3, 4

 

Now if the scoring rewards net birdies and eagles exponentially ie 0, 2, 4, 8 etc ... a player like a 4-7 capper can have a field day if they make a lot of birdies. I recall a Vegas event one year at Dragon Ridge in this scoring format and IIRC I had a whack of birds (some net eagle) and ended up with 53 points while shooting 71,

[Sawgrass]

PS Ro, I agree with you that low net means total score less handicap. That is not the issue here. Doing what I suggested is exactly the same as playing Stableford. By calling the score at net double bogey the results are the same as Stableford.

Obviously, I fail to understand and will quit trying, BUT, two things not the same are different. Total net score is not the same as Stableford. Play either, but don't try to do both at the same time.

Sure they are different but will give the same result. :) I will give one last stab at it.

If you play Stableford versus playing low net with net double bogey maximum.

36 points will always equal-exactly- shooting your handicap(with the net double max). So if a 5 cap shoots 77 on a par 72 course he is net 72 strokes and 36 points.

 

30 points will always be the same as a player shooting 6 strokes over his cap(again if you use the net double max)

 

40 will always be a player shooting 4 strokes better

 

etc etc etc The reason for the net double maximum in the computation is that is where the points stop in Stableford. A player should post for handicap what he really shot-less esc in the US of course.

 

Which brinks up a question for those in the UK. Did I read you use Stableford for handicap purposes? So rather than ESC(equitable stroke control) you just use net double bogey maximum on a hole for all players?

 

I haven't been referring to "adjusted scores" used for handicapping purposes, but to actual scores achieved during a round of stroke play. AFAIK, stroke play competitions are not decided by using "adjusted scores" and stroke play competitions don't permit a max score per hole (yet).

 

Did he say "stroke play competitions"? No, he did not. He's talking about games won or lost based on scores with a net double-bogey max.

 

Stableford is one such game but you can score a net double-bogey max game using "strokes" instead of "points" an reach the same exact result. The conversion of "Strokes" to "points" is a simply one-to-one correspondence, as long as the net double-bogey max limit is in place.

Rule 32-1 tells us that Stableford is a form of Stoke Play, not Match Play. So if we are talking Stableford, we are in fact talking a type of Stroke Play competition. (For instance, there is no "loss of hole" penalty in Stableford.)

[Shilgy]

I have two answers

 

If you are playing with a -1 for doubles or worse, it can be tougher on high cappers .. expecially if the pts are -1, 0, 1, 2 , 3, 4

 

Now if the scoring rewards net birdies and eagles exponentially ie 0, 2, 4, 8 etc ... a player like a 4-7 capper can have a field day if they make a lot of birdies. I recall a Vegas event one year at Dragon Ridge in this scoring format and IIRC I had a whack of birds (some net eagle) and ended up with 53 points while shooting 71,

But.... There is absolutely no difference between playing the points as. -1, 0 1,2,3,4 or playing them as 0,1,2,3,4,5. As long as there is no reward for birdies as in the system you noted then you could play -2, -1, 0,1,2,3 and the results would be the same. As long as the points are one apart it does not matter to the results.

Edit, yes the total points are different but the field will finish the same.

[North Butte]

I have two answers

 

If you are playing with a -1 for doubles or worse, it can be tougher on high cappers .. expecially if the pts are -1, 0, 1, 2 , 3, 4

 

Now if the scoring rewards net birdies and eagles exponentially ie 0, 2, 4, 8 etc ... a player like a 4-7 capper can have a field day if they make a lot of birdies. I recall a Vegas event one year at Dragon Ridge in this scoring format and IIRC I had a whack of birds (some net eagle) and ended up with 53 points while shooting 71,

But.... There is absolutely no difference between playing the points as. -1, 0 1,2,3,4 or playing them as 0,1,2,3,4,5. As long as there is no reward for birdies as in the system you noted then you could play -2, -1, 0,1,2,3 and the results would be the same. As long as the points are one apart it does not matter to the results.

Edit, yes the total points are different but the field will finish the same.

 

I think some people look at a scoring system where I finished one stroke lower than you and a different system where I finished one point more than you and say "See, there resemblance. It's completely different to win 38 points to 37 than to shoot 76 to 77".

 

Remember when they used to report results of bigger tournamnents by saying "Hagen with a fine 278 beat Smith's 281"? Then they switched to saying "Hagen's fine 10-under par beat Smith's 7-under" instead. Some of these guys must have taken years to figure of what that was all about!

[Deceptively Short]

In the UK we often have strokeplay tournaments and cup competitions which are based on Stableford scoring. These, as they are ‘qualifying’ for handicaps are entered into the computer. All you do is enter your gross score into the computer and if you have a blob, i.e. you have picked up as you were not going to achieve better than a net double bogey, you enter a 0 for that hole. The computer then converts to Stableford score and, after all cards are checked, the results are published in Stableford format. We all know what we are scoring Stableford-wise as we go as we have a column on scorecards for points.

So this idea of having to convert back to some sort of medal score for handicap entry is not an issue over this side of the lake anyway.

[Deceptively Short]

Following from my post above, it must be noted that Stableford competitions tend to be lesser ones and not used for prestigious competitions. Often they are midweek Senior comps or run through the Winter. Interestingly at my Club we only play comps in 2 or 3 balls, for pace of play reasons (as is the case in most of the UK) and for medals we have 10 minute gaps but we reduce this to 8 minutes for Stableford tournaments as the pace of play is significantly faster.

[ruca]

We have a weekly weekday or weekend Stableford, and occasional more regarded comps are also Stableford; we allow 4 balls for Stableford comps, and if anyone takes more than about 3.45 the moaning starts, and gets really bad if much more than 4hrs

As long as mostly you pick up when out of shots , and don’t go back to tee if you lose your ball, it should be a fairly quick format. Monthly Medal comps are limited to 3 balls.

 

I kept a database for years in our group (hcp range 2-20); over time lower hcps were slightly favoured in Stableford; medal formats favoured lower hcps moreso

[North Butte]

In the UK we often have strokeplay tournaments and cup competitions which are based on Stableford scoring. These, as they are ‘qualifying’ for handicaps are entered into the computer. All you do is enter your gross score into the computer and if you have a blob, i.e. you have picked up as you were not going to achieve better than a net double bogey, you enter a 0 for that hole. The computer then converts to Stableford score and, after all cards are checked, the results are published in Stableford format. We all know what we are scoring Stableford-wise as we go as we have a column on scorecards for points.

So this idea of having to convert back to some sort of medal score for handicap entry is not an issue over this side of the lake anyway.

 

The most commonly used system in USA is called GHIN and you only enter a score for the round, no provision for entering hole scores.

[QEight]

The most commonly used system in USA is called GHIN and you only enter a score for the round, no provision for entering hole scores.

 

Which is somewhat interesting as according to rules, the player is not responsible for the total. I know GHIN is not in rules but USGA does run both.

[North Butte]

The most commonly used system in USA is called GHIN and you only enter a score for the round, no provision for entering hole scores.

 

Which is somewhat interesting as according to rules, the player is not responsible for the total. I know GHIN is not in rules but USGA does run both.

 

There are rules of golf and rules of the handicap system. Different things entirely, which is IMHO a major problem with the USGA handicap system.

[Newby]

Of course the R&A doesn't have a handicapping system. But all the other major systems are in the R&A area.

[Sawgrass]

In the UK we often have strokeplay tournaments and cup competitions which are based on Stableford scoring. These, as they are ‘qualifying’ for handicaps are entered into the computer. All you do is enter your gross score into the computer and if you have a blob, i.e. you have picked up as you were not going to achieve better than a net double bogey, you enter a 0 for that hole. The computer then converts to Stableford score and, after all cards are checked, the results are published in Stableford format. We all know what we are scoring Stableford-wise as we go as we have a column on scorecards for points.

So this idea of having to convert back to some sort of medal score for handicap entry is not an issue over this side of the lake anyway.

 

The most commonly used system in USA is called GHIN and you only enter a score for the round, no provision for entering hole scores.

I don't know for sure if it's currently true, but it has been true in the past that the operating club has the option of having the GHIN system require hole-by-hole entries or just one ESC-adjusted entry. The advantage of the hole-by-hole entry is that ESC is automatically applied based on course handicap for the day, the disadvantage is that it's time consuming to enter.

[Newby]

The advantage of the hole-by-hole entry is that ESC is automatically applied based on course handicap for the day, the disadvantage is that it's time consuming to enter.

After spending 5 hours on the course and another in the 19th, how much time do you want?

[Sawgrass]

The advantage of the hole-by-hole entry is that ESC is automatically applied based on course handicap for the day, the disadvantage is that it's time consuming to enter.

After spending 5 hours on the course and another in the 19th, how much time do you want?

After the last hour in the 19th, no one should be expected to calculate a course handicap and apply the wavering ESC number. So I'm just fine with the alternative requiring drunken punching in of 18 individual hole scores.

 

But all I really "want" is to win. I ask myself the only legitimate question that anyone can ask: "Will this help Sawgrass?"

[DavePelz4]

The advantage of the hole-by-hole entry is that ESC is automatically applied based on course handicap for the day, the disadvantage is that it's time consuming to enter.

After spending 5 hours on the course and another in the 19th, how much time do you want?

After the last hour in the 19th, no one should be expected to calculate a course handicap and apply the wavering ESC number. So I'm just fine with the alternative requiring drunken punching in of 18 individual hole scores.

 

But all I really "want" is to win. I ask myself the only legitimate question that anyone can ask: "Will this help Sawgrass?"

 

You need to sell those rubber bracelets with WTHS...

[Shilgy]

The advantage of the hole-by-hole entry is that ESC is automatically applied based on course handicap for the day, the disadvantage is that it's time consuming to enter.

After spending 5 hours on the course and another in the 19th, how much time do you want?

After the last hour in the 19th, no one should be expected to calculate a course handicap and apply the wavering ESC number. So I'm just fine with the alternative requiring drunken punching in of 18 individual hole scores.

 

But all I really "want" is to win. I ask myself the only legitimate question that anyone can ask: "Will this help Sawgrass?"

Reminds me of an old pro of mine. He always organized the game when the area pros got together for a game. Another pro told me that "all Tommy's looking for is a fair advantage". :)

[DaveLeeNC]

The most commonly used system in USA is called GHIN and you only enter a score for the round, no provision for entering hole scores.

 

Which is somewhat interesting as according to rules, the player is not responsible for the total. I know GHIN is not in rules but USGA does run both.

 

From the GHIN website in the section that describes the supported software.

 

Options may be set to prompt the member for score information when posting a score such as score type, tee played, and choice of posting an adjusted score or using hole-by-hole entry, which automatically computes Equitable Stroke Control.

 

It is there but it is optional. And some states golf organizations don't even use GHIN.

 

dave

[North Butte]

I have played golf for 25 years and held a handicap for 22. Never seen or heard of anyone entering hole by hole scores.

[Newby]

I have played golf for 25 years and held a handicap for 22. Never seen or heard of anyone entering hole by hole scores.

 

Just wait til 2020.

[DaveLeeNC]

I have played golf for 25 years and held a handicap for 22. Never seen or heard of anyone entering hole by hole scores.

 

This was some time ago when NC was a Golfnet state. But a couple of guys that I played with used it as it provided some statistics of scoring that they liked. I believe that our club used it in some of their tourney's where the committee (in club sponsored events) were responsible for posting as well as for scoring. At that time Golfnet would do both with one data entry (18, anyway).

 

dave

[Matt J]

I've always tried to be kind and patient when playing with high handicap players, but I'm coming to realize this group just has far too much difference in ability. It's not that much fun to play, even low stakes games, with guys that are north of a stroke a hole. Too bad because I enjoy playing with many of them.

[Shilgy]

I've always tried to be kind and patient when playing with high handicap players, but I'm coming to realize this group just has far too much difference in ability. It's not that much fun to play, even low stakes games, with guys that are north of a stroke a hole. Too bad because I enjoy playing with many of them.

We've had that discussion with our usual Saturday group of 24 or so players. Have a couple north of 18 caps that make it difficult to have team games. For individual games and skins we cap the handicaps at 18 but team games they get their full cap. But it is difficult to fit in guys pushing 30 handicap.

[SNIPERBBB]

I've always tried to be kind and patient when playing with high handicap players, but I'm coming to realize this group just has far too much difference in ability. It's not that much fun to play, even low stakes games, with guys that are north of a stroke a hole. Too bad because I enjoy playing with many of them.

We've had that discussion with our usual Saturday group of 24 or so players. Have a couple north of 18 caps that make it difficult to have team games. For individual games and skins we cap the handicaps at 18 but team games they get their full cap. But it is difficult to fit in guys pushing 30 handicap.

 

Try the version on the team stableford we play. The high caps are the spare wheel that occasionally you need. They shouldnt be the wrecking balls.

[Shilgy]

I've always tried to be kind and patient when playing with high handicap players, but I'm coming to realize this group just has far too much difference in ability. It's not that much fun to play, even low stakes games, with guys that are north of a stroke a hole. Too bad because I enjoy playing with many of them.

We've had that discussion with our usual Saturday group of 24 or so players. Have a couple north of 18 caps that make it difficult to have team games. For individual games and skins we cap the handicaps at 18 but team games they get their full cap. But it is difficult to fit in guys pushing 30 handicap.

 

Try the version on the team stableford we play. The high caps are the spare wheel that occasionally you need. They shouldnt be the wrecking balls.

That's the problem though. You have to make the format for a couple of players. We have played a format a few times where after the hole is played you decide if you are counting 2, 3 or all 4 balls. Have to use each six times. Try that with a really high cap on your team and see how it goes.

[SNIPERBBB]

Well, we dont handcuff ourselves by requiring a number of scores used by each player. We adopted this after years of playing just straight total strokes, best 3/4, per team. That killed off some of the seniors and high caps from playing(our area hardly ever plays net anything), so this format brought them in.

[Shilgy]

Well, we dont handcuff ourselves by requiring a number of scores used by each player. We adopted this after years of playing just straight total strokes, best 3/4, per team. That killed off some of the seniors and high caps from playing(our area hardly ever plays net anything), so this format brought them in.

Huh, your playing best 3 of 4 means if your team had the high guy you're virtually playing all 3 on most holes. Tough to win that way.

You misunderstood my previous post. We don't have a certain number of times a players score had to be used but do change up how many balls count from week to week.