Ethics in "dot" games (sandies, greenies, etc.)

[TheCityGame]

I joined a club this year, and I've played a lot more of these random games with dots (wolf, 3 v 3, 5 man games, etc.)

 

For instance, we've gone out as a 5 and after you all drive, the middle guy picks either the two guys on the left or the two guys on the right for his teammates, and which ever team wins the hole gets a "dot". You also get dots for birdies and CTP on par 3's, and sandies.

 

We went out as 6 recently and we play left 3 versus right 3 on each hole. So, on this par 3, after 4 guys have teed off, there's 3 guys to the left, and one guy right near the hole. The "best" strategy for the last two guys was just to dump a couple balls out to the right. Or at least aim far enough right, they were "guaranteed" of pairing with the close guy.

 

(FWIW, in these games, we keep the pace and if you're out of the hole, you're picking up. You're not putting out meaningless ones, etc. 6 can play pretty fast in these circumstances.)

 

It often comes up in these games that if you have a trustworthy partner on the green (or even 2 on the green), a "good" strategy might be to try to dump one in a greenside bunker if you think you have a better chance for a sandy than you do for a birdie from the fairway.

 

Now, we try to play with "integrity" when we play. You're expected to hit your best shot, but it's also pretty easy to put on in a greenside bunkers and not look like you're trying to.

 

I was thinking about this because I was listening to the recent No Laying Up podcast with Kevin Kisner and he said that when he's playing wolf, he'll dump a shot in a fairway bunker if he thinks he can make par from there. If that was your strategy in our games, you would not verbalize it.

 

Anyway, the question is. . .what's your opinion of sluffing off shots like that in an attempt to pick up random points in these types of games? Does your group do it? Is it expected? Do you do it surreptitiously?

[dpb5031]

We play all kinds of junk in our regular games, but we also always have an individual Stableford comp going, scats, plus typically multiple individual matches both within and outside of your foursome. If you don't try to hit your best shot in every situation your exposing yourself to some serious liability.

[Swisstrader98]

Where do u play where they let you out as a 5 or 6-some??

[TheCityGame]

Where do u play where they let you out as a 5 or 6-some??

That's the point of playing these games. You go out and don't even play the hole out if you're out of the hole. The last time I played with 6, I was playing with the pro.

 

When we played 6 a couple weeks ago, we finished in sub-4. You get to your ball, and hit it.

 

I'm sort of new to this group. When we were on the first hole, I had a birdie putt and I said to my "temporary" teammate on that hole, "go ahead and try to finish that par" (so I could "go for" the birdie) and everyone was like, "no. You're ready. Just putt."

 

Message received.

[MrJones]

Where do u play where they let you out as a 5 or 6-some??

My country club every Saturday and Sunday morning at 7. We're the only group out there 90% of the time and have been for close to 9 years now. We won't do it if there's other groups out there and I can't remember the last time someone caught up to us.

[Augster]

As dpb5031 said, these junk games only work in context with other individual games and side bets. Otherwise, yes, you should be dumping balls in bunkers and missing greens on purpose, which really isn’t golf.

 

With side bets on the line based on your individual score, you’re not going to be missing greens on purpose. You might, and I know I have, aim for the fatter part of the green if I know it’ll pair me up with the guy that is close on a par 3, but that’s about it.

 

One group I play with has a standing $1 putting game. No thanks. It’s $1 per putt and you pay up and down the ladder. There is so much money, compared to say a $2 Nassau, that you are trying to hit fringes instead of greens. It’s not really golf.

[dpb5031]

As dpb5031 said, these junk games only work in context with other individual games and side bets. Otherwise, yes, you should be dumping balls in bunkers and missing greens on purpose, which really isn’t golf.

 

With side bets on the line based on your individual score, you’re not going to be missing greens on purpose. You might, and I know I have, aim for the fatter part of the green if I know it’ll pair me up with the guy that is close on a par 3, but that’s about it.

 

One group I play with has a standing $1 putting game. No thanks. It’s $1 per putt and you pay up and down the ladder. There is so much money, compared to say a $2 Nassau, that you are trying to hit fringes instead of greens. It’s not really golf.

 

Exactly! Agree that as described it's not really golf so what to do about posting for handicap as this practice will falsely inflate your handicap.

[TheCityGame]

As dpb5031 said, these junk games only work in context with other individual games and side bets. Otherwise, yes, you should be dumping balls in bunkers and missing greens on purpose, which really isn't golf.

 

With side bets on the line based on your individual score, you're not going to be missing greens on purpose. You might, and I know I have, aim for the fatter part of the green if I know it'll pair me up with the guy that is close on a par 3, but that's about it.

 

One group I play with has a standing $1 putting game. No thanks. It's $1 per putt and you pay up and down the ladder. There is so much money, compared to say a $2 Nassau, that you are trying to hit fringes instead of greens. It's not really golf.

 

Exactly! Agree that as described it's not really golf so what to do about posting for handicap as this practice will falsely inflate your handicap.

You might notice I'm posting about this in the "silly season". We're not in July.

 

Also, I joined a club this year. This is the kind of thing that I would never have done in the past. One nice thing I've found about joining a club is that you don't need to treat each round like it's precious. You can go screw around, and you know what. . .these screw around rounds are a lot of fun. You hit a lot of meaningful shots and they all have money on them.

 

Sometimes I've seen 8 go out at the club and they play "validation". Don't ask.

 

On a side note, I really dislike statements about golf like, "it's not really golf". Stroke play is golf. Match play is golf. Scrambles are golf. Wolf is golf. Hammer is golf. Wolf-Hammer is golf. "COD" is golf. Golf is going out on a golf course and trying to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes than the guy you're out there with under the same conditions.

[dpb5031]

I totally get the silly season stuff. We do it too, including validation skins with large groups. It's totally for sh!ts and giggles, and were not posting anyway. More gambling than golf though the way I look at it.

[bigmoneyp]

Putting your ball in certain spots is all part of the strategy. You are playing a game and you need to do your best to win the most points.

[deadsolid...shank]

As dpb5031 said, these junk games only work in context with other individual games and side bets. Otherwise, yes, you should be dumping balls in bunkers and missing greens on purpose, which really isn't golf.

 

With side bets on the line based on your individual score, you're not going to be missing greens on purpose. You might, and I know I have, aim for the fatter part of the green if I know it'll pair me up with the guy that is close on a par 3, but that's about it.

 

One group I play with has a standing $1 putting game. No thanks. It's $1 per putt and you pay up and down the ladder. There is so much money, compared to say a $2 Nassau, that you are trying to hit fringes instead of greens. It's not really golf.

 

Exactly! Agree that as described it's not really golf so what to do about posting for handicap as this practice will falsely inflate your handicap.

You might notice I'm posting about this in the "silly season". We're not in July.

 

Also, I joined a club this year. This is the kind of thing that I would never have done in the past. One nice thing I've found about joining a club is that you don't need to treat each round like it's precious. You can go screw around, and you know what. . .these screw around rounds are a lot of fun. You hit a lot of meaningful shots and they all have money on them.

 

Sometimes I've seen 8 go out at the club and they play "validation". Don't ask.

 

On a side note, I really dislike statements about golf like, "it's not really golf". Stroke play is golf. Match play is golf. Scrambles are golf. Wolf is golf. Hammer is golf. Wolf-Hammer is golf. "COD" is golf. Golf is going out on a golf course and trying to get the ball in the hole in fewer strokes than the guy you're out there with under the same conditions.

 

I’m completely on board with you. Strategy and gamesmanship factor into those type games. We have a game where people are constantly calling for their ball to roll through to the fringe. Or in another game, there is one guy you always want as a partner for the first six holes (due to where the stroke holes are). At this course partners are determined by pairing the long and short guy for the opening six so you try and be last to tee off and then try to hit the correct distance. Similarly, at the other course, right and left determine partners. Absolutely you factor in where previous tee shots have landed. To me, especially in a group of regulars, that is a big part of the fun. Calling someone out because they are purposely trying to pair up with someone, or trying to stay off the green, etc.

 

And like someone said earlier, we’re also playing individual nassaus, so you still have to try and score. But the team games do take precedence. And we’re out as five very regularly.

[Swisstrader98]

Where do u play where they let you out as a 5 or 6-some??

My country club every Saturday and Sunday morning at 7. We're the only group out there 90% of the time and have been for close to 9 years now. We won't do it if there's other groups out there and I can't remember the last time someone caught up to us.

 

Interesting. My country club is back to back tee times on a Sat/Sun AM so there is no way that would work at most clubs.

 

For me, it would feel like a complete zoo to have to wait for 5 guys to hit before me prior to every shot. I go crazy enough in my usual foursome waiting to hit:)

[MrJones]

Where do u play where they let you out as a 5 or 6-some??

My country club every Saturday and Sunday morning at 7. We're the only group out there 90% of the time and have been for close to 9 years now. We won't do it if there's other groups out there and I can't remember the last time someone caught up to us.

 

Interesting. My country club is back to back tee times on a Sat/Sun AM so there is no way that would work at most clubs.

 

For me, it would feel like a complete zoo to have to wait for 5 guys to hit before me prior to every shot. I go crazy enough in my usual foursome waiting to hit:)

 

Our Club doesn't even have tee times. It's first come, first serve after checking in with the proshop.

 

Our group plays fast (I know everyone says that but we really do). A long round for us is around 4:15. Believe me, to us, that seems like FOREVER. That only happens when we play 5 or 6 and one particular player or more is playing really bad. We're out there playing golf but it's also buddy time where we talk and do a lot of joking and laughing.

 

Recently though I've noticed that I play better when it's a smaller group and the pace is much better. My best scoring round ever was as a twosome on an open course. We weren't even rushing and finished right at 2 hours.

[ArtMBgolf]

If you group doesn't like guys playing for Dots, you can include Skins, which are worth more than a Sandy.

 

When it's 2 vs 2, you could play high low. When 3 vs 3, you could play best 2 scores or high low.

High Low is a point for best ball and a point for best high ball.

That would stop the dumping, but it would still be good strategy to play to the right of the pin to partner with the best shot.

[bladehunter]

I don't see the issue with dumping an approach to try to pickup a dot. Especially if your partner is already on the green and assured to make par. It's actually great practice. If you can hit a trap on command youre practicing distance control as well as sand game. Ive also been known to layup off the tee In wolf depending on who the wolf is and if I want to be partnered with them. Lol.

[SnapHooker_307]

The groups I end up playing these games with are nowhere good enough to intentionally hit it in a bunker in order to try to get a dot. That being said, if you are good enough to do so, go ahead. I see absolutely no issues with this and I hope that I improve enough to have that in my playbook!

[gretch]

Throw a vegas with birdie reversals in there and it will put a quick end to the notion of guy #2 pulling any shady shiat for junk points.

[spacefinger]

Throw a vegas with birdie reversals in there and it will put a quick end to the notion of guy #2 pulling any shady shiat for junk points.

i'm too lazy to google this. What's a vegas? and how do birdie reversals typically work?

[KevCarter]

Throw a vegas with birdie reversals in there and it will put a quick end to the notion of guy #2 pulling any shady shiat for junk points.

i'm too lazy to google this. What's a vegas? and how do birdie reversals typically work?

 

Here you go, if you have the energy to click the links. :-)

 

http://www.myscorecard.com/cgi-bin/knowledgecenter.pl?mode=article&category=golf_games&file=vegas&article=Vegas

 

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/features/the-game/what-is-las-vegas-golf-betting-game-67071

 

The second link explains birdie reversal...

[smeech8000]

It would be nice to run a supplementary score-based game to ensure fidelity, but it's not always feasible.

 

Sounds like the group will determine what is acceptable morality here. In the example cited (or similar situations), had anyone actually verbalized or otherwise alluded to the fact that the last two to hit will be aiming well right? Seems like it is acceptable practice from what I'm picking up. I would agree - you still have to hit the shot, you are still picking out a target and a preferred side to miss, and ultimately have to execute.

 

Also, with the bunker example, that's all well and good until you catch a plugged lie, at which point the universe will be in balance once more. :derisive:

[Jld1501]

Our games have almost gotten to the point where we need an accountant to keep up with all the junk bets. Here's a summary if you also know of an accountant that can join your Saturday morning group.

Note: Our normal group of 4 or 5 are all between 3-8 handicap, no strokes given. If you ask for shots we will tell you to just play better. All dots $5.00.

 

Crazy skins - 1 dot. Low score wins, whether it's 1 or 4 players. The only way this doesn't pay is if everybody ties.

Normal skin - 2 dots. No carryovers. 2 tie, all tie.

All birdies - 1 dot.

All eagles - 2 dots.

Par 3 greenies - 1 dot for all on green, 1 extra dot for closest. Must make par or better.

Sandys - 1 dot. Par or birdie from any trap.

Barkies - 1 dot. Birdie from a tee shot that audibly hits a tree.

Poleys - 1 dot. Approach shot in regulation that is within the length of the flag stick. Must make birdie putt.

3-Jack - Everyone else in the group gets 1 dot.

[TheCityGame]

Another guy told me that when they play, you get the dot for the sandie, but if you fail to get up and down you owe a buck. Stops the tom foolery I guess.

[MrJones]

Another guy told me that when they play, you get the dot for the sandie, but if you fail to get up and down you owe a buck. Stops the tom foolery I guess.

 

I kinda look at it like this: we award sandies in our group because, as a hazard, it's supposed to be harder than getting up and down from anywhere else.

 

So if for your group it's turned into something people go for intentionally to get more dots, just quit making it worth anything. I'm not saying that harshly, just saying that might be a solution to look at.