Jeans on the golf course. Come on Now!!

[LeoLeo99]

We only recently changed our dress code to allow jeans in the club house only but not on the golf course or practice facilities.

 

Jeans that are excessively faded and/or having frayed hems, rips, tears, holes, wrinkled or dirty are NOT acceptable.

Denim of any kind is not permitted on the Golf Course or any of the practice facilities.

 

Let's just say the change to allow jeans in the club house was not unanimous.

 

While I think it is silly I do abide by the rules.

 

Was there a generational or industry split to the lack of unanimity?

Denim trousers with sports coats have been de rigueur amongst many higher-ups in a number of industries for many years now (since the Hank Scorpio days at least).

I could imagine some wanting to stop for a drink on the way home from their corner office dressed in such a manner, so why not let them do so.

 

Split was generational.

 

Recently our club has seen a large increase in intermediate members (21 to 35) so the change was necessary to attract them.

 

Averaging down the age of members is very important to the health of the club.

 

I often wear denim for work. If I wanted to hit balls at the range after work I would have to go to my locker and change into non denim pants.

 

Rule is silly to me but I don't make the rules.

 

I have to "dress up" for work on days I plan to golf if it's cool enough to wear long pants. I have some old wrinkly pants in the trunk of my car in case of a golf "emergency" after work.

[HatsForBats]

All other sports have "uniforms" and for me golf does as well:

 

Trying to think of some other sports where a person pays a decent fee to play at someone else’s property and isn’t required to wear the ‘uniform’ of the sport (outside of equipment).

 

Bowling, skiing?

 

Well, there's the rub. How do you define jeans? There are jeans we wear that are faded, have holes in the knees, with frayed cuffs and paint stains. Then there are jeans as you described. Who defines what is "nice"? One man's "nice" is another man's no so "nice".

 

So those of you who support wearing jeans, are you okay with faded, holes in the knees, frayed cuffed jeans? If not, why not?

 

A local course allows anything except short shorts for women and men in tank tops. Doesn’t bother me a lick. What business is it of mine unless what they are wearing is damaging the course (work boots or the like)? It was a great place to learn the game as a kid and for adults. I’m sure it still is as I see people out there playing the game all the time.

[Bad9]

Totally agree on lax attire standards. We need to go back to when golfers had real class and wear jackets, vests and ties. Probably with plus 4's. The game has been going downhill since they let the likes or Palmer and Nicklaus forgo wearing a tie back in the 1950's. And don't even get me started on when they allowed advertising on hats like those idiotic Amana ones that were so popular. Once they let dress standards go the rabid slowdown in pace of play started with walking off yardages, preshot routines and even yardage books. It killed the game and it started with a lax dress code.

[deadsolid...shank]

Totally agree on lax attire standards. We need to go back to when golfers had real class and wear jackets, vests and ties. Probably with plus 4's. The game has been going downhill since they let the likes or Palmer and Nicklaus forgo wearing a tie back in the 1950's. And don't even get me started on when they allowed advertising on hats like those idiotic Amana ones that were so popular. Once they let dress standards go the rabid slowdown in pace of play started with walking off yardages, preshot routines and even yardage books. It killed the game and it started with a lax dress code.

 

My legs are pretty short, I’d probably only need Plus 2’s.

[Kaysquare]

I belong to a private country club in a very relaxed & small community. The on-course dress code here allows jeans. I've never heard anyone complain about it. We do have a few more restrictions in the dining rooms though. A lot of our members belong to clubs in big cities & a lot of them do not allow jeans on-course. Most of those members think being able to wear jeans here is great.

[deadsolid...shank]

I belong to a private country club in a very relaxed & small community. The on-course dress code here allows jeans. I've never heard anyone complain about it. We do have a few more restrictions in the dining rooms though. A lot of our members belong to clubs in big cities & a lot of them do not allow jeans on-course. Most of those members think being able to wear jeans here is great.

 

Kay, haven’t seen you around for a while.

 

Ours is similar. No jeans in the formal dining room, but ok most everywhere else.

[bigred90gt]

Not craziness just consistency. I'm not about not letting people play but I'm looking for golfers who respect the game who don't come to the course expecting to hack up the golf course, not rake bunkers, fix divots, play slow and expect the golf course to allow that to happen.

 

What does any of that have to do with jeans?

In a way it has a lot to do with it. It's not just jeans anymore, like stated before, you see golfers coming out wearing sweats and thinking it Is okay. People coming to the course expecting to take 5 hours to finish a round. Why because courses are so accommodating. When you are not consistent with how the course is run and the expectation of players on the course whether it's golf etiquette or attire, that's when the game of golf loses its value.

 

Material of choice for clothing has nothing at all to do with etiquette or pace of play. There’s just no way around that.

 

I learned that lesson on the course. We were playing a round at a local muni several years ago. There was a single ahead of us waiting on the 4some in front of him (nowhere for him to go through). We came up to him on the tee box and he asked if we wanted to join him. We introduced ourselves, and when time came, he teed off. Piped the ball center cut down the fairway a good 275-280. On the green in 2 and an easy 2 putt. Over the next 13 holes, I think he was 2-3 under. Super nice guy. Kept to himself mostly, but when he did speak it was yes sir, no sir, thank you, etc. didn’t dilly-dally around, got to his ball, hit and moved on. We never waited for him, and if I would have gotten his information, I would have played with him a lot more going forward. Looked ya all in the eye while shaking hands after the round, like men/gentlemen do.

 

He was wearing baggy jeans, a t-shirt with the sleeves ripped off of it and had a hat on backward.

 

Like I said, clothing choice just has absolutely nothing to do with any of the problems some of you are talking about. Those issues are people generally being sh**heads. A person can be a sh**head wearing a $5000 tux (see any hollywood awards show), or $500 worth of the latest and greatest golf fashion, or a $7 track suit from Walmart. Clothing makes no difference, it’s all a matter of the person wearing it. If they’re acting like an idiot, holding up play, being disrespectful to the course or the other players, deal with the problem. But, the problem isn’t the attire.

[LeoLeo99]

Not craziness just consistency. I'm not about not letting people play but I'm looking for golfers who respect the game who don't come to the course expecting to hack up the golf course, not rake bunkers, fix divots, play slow and expect the golf course to allow that to happen.

 

What does any of that have to do with jeans?

In a way it has a lot to do with it. It's not just jeans anymore, like stated before, you see golfers coming out wearing sweats and thinking it Is okay. People coming to the course expecting to take 5 hours to finish a round. Why because courses are so accommodating. When you are not consistent with how the course is run and the expectation of players on the course whether it's golf etiquette or attire, that's when the game of golf loses its value.

 

Material of choice for clothing has nothing at all to do with etiquette or pace of play. There's just no way around that.

 

I learned that lesson on the course. We were playing a round at a local muni several years ago. There was a single ahead of us waiting on the 4some in front of him (nowhere for him to go through). We came up to him on the tee box and he asked if we wanted to join him. We introduced ourselves, and when time came, he teed off. Piped the ball center cut down the fairway a good 275-280. On the green in 2 and an easy 2 putt. Over the next 13 holes, I think he was 2-3 under. Super nice guy. Kept to himself mostly, but when he did speak it was yes sir, no sir, thank you, etc. didn't dilly-dally around, got to his ball, hit and moved on. We never waited for him, and if I would have gotten his information, I would have played with him a lot more going forward. Looked ya all in the eye while shaking hands after the round, like men/gentlemen do.

 

He was wearing baggy jeans, a t-shirt with the sleeves ripped off of it and had a hat on backward.

 

Like I said, clothing choice just has absolutely nothing to do with any of the problems some of you are talking about. Those issues are people generally being sh**heads. A person can be a sh**head wearing a $5000 tux (see any hollywood awards show), or $500 worth of the latest and greatest golf fashion, or a $7 track suit from Walmart. Clothing makes no difference, it's all a matter of the person wearing it. If they're acting like an idiot, holding up play, being disrespectful to the course or the other players, deal with the problem. But, the problem isn't the attire.

 

If I was that good, I'd dress that way, too.

[om18v]

What are these things Jeans? From reading this thread I have assumed it is and article of clothing. I went to my closest and called out Jean....Jean.... I received no answer, Hmmmm, guess either they are mute or there are none there. That's OK, we wear shorts here most of the year.

 

Long pants and polo on the course today, worked up a bit of a sweat.

[Pepperturbo]

It appears you 'can't' grasp or understand what people say, unless they totally agree with you.

 

I'm wide open to new thoughts and ideas. I'm in the 0.0006% of people who have ever had their mind changed by an internet debate.

 

But so far you've mentioned jeans being "too blue collar" and people not wanting to be associated with them. I'm looking for a realistic, non-judgemental reason why a person couldn't wear jeans to play golf. A reason that doesn't involve other people simply being judgemental.

 

Jeans that are excessively faded and/or having frayed hems, rips, tears, holes, wrinkled or dirty are NOT acceptable.

Denim of any kind is not permitted on the Golf Course or any of the practice facilities.

 

This made me laugh :) The dangers of denim!! "Totally classless material" says local upper echelon!

 

You're right internet debates never resolve or change anything. But will share my experience on the subject.

 

At every private club, I've attended as a visiting board or leadership representative, club charters & dress-code rules have similarities. That doesn't imply all clubs were high-end, most were moderately priced. Club leadership administers all charter rulings, including dress-code which only gets modified by a majority club vote, and depending on the clubs charter, a certain minimum number of members have to vote for anything to pass as a majority.

 

In every club leadership discussion I been part of, comes down to "IF" an inch is given on dress-code policy, people tend to take a mile. Additionally, to make a dress-code modification, leadership has to consider how new policy rules are administered, also doing so may cost extra money. Hence, dress codes seldom get modified downward to allow denim of any kind. The added reason why many clubs don't allow women members to wear what we see LPGA players wearing during tournaments.

 

That's even true at many muni courses least in CA and AZ, that have benevolent owners which make the dress-code rules. It depends greatly on where clubs are located and what type of people they attract. However, at really low-cost munies jeans and sagging are more common. Funny thing about jeans and sagging, least from what I have personally seen, they are not nicely kept jeans, lending credence to giving an inch.. beach:

[Hawkeye77]

Cant stand jeans on the course!!!! But if someone said you can have a 3 to 4 hour round and the person in front of you is wearing jeans or a 5+ hour round with someone wearing golf pants in front of m?. Then "jeans" it is... I will never wear jeans on a golf course out of respect for the game, other people and the course, but like Jersey Boy said it does not effect me playing "my" game.

 

Please explain how wearing a nice pair of Levi Strauss jeans and a nice golf shirt is disrespecting the game ! That's just a crock of crap.

 

I'd give you ten likes if i could ! A perfectly simple question .and i bet we hear some not so simple answers !

 

Well, there's the rub. How do you define jeans? There are jeans we wear that are faded, have holes in the knees, with frayed cuffs and paint stains. Then there are jeans as you described. Who defines what is "nice"? One man's "nice" is another man's no so "nice".

 

So those of you who support wearing jeans, are you okay with faded, holes in the knees, frayed cuffed jeans? If not, why not?

 

Holes in the knees of regular golf slacks, uncut hems probably wouldn't get too far with that crowd, so not seeing too many hornets' nests. The degree of fade certainly is a rub - some cowboys like the crisp unfaded look of new Wranglers others want some nice soft, faded Ariats.

[Hawkeye77]

It appears you 'can't' grasp or understand what people say, unless they totally agree with you.

 

I'm wide open to new thoughts and ideas. I'm in the 0.0006% of people who have ever had their mind changed by an internet debate.

 

But so far you've mentioned jeans being "too blue collar" and people not wanting to be associated with them. I'm looking for a realistic, non-judgemental reason why a person couldn't wear jeans to play golf. A reason that doesn't involve other people simply being judgemental.

 

Jeans that are excessively faded and/or having frayed hems, rips, tears, holes, wrinkled or dirty are NOT acceptable.

Denim of any kind is not permitted on the Golf Course or any of the practice facilities.

 

This made me laugh :) The dangers of denim!! "Totally classless material" says local upper echelon!

 

You're right internet debates never resolve or change anything. But will share my experience on the subject.

 

At every private club, I've attended as a visiting board or leadership representative, club charters & dress-code rules have similarities. That doesn't imply all clubs were high-end, most were moderately priced. Club leadership administers all charter rulings, including dress-code which only gets modified by a majority club vote, and depending on the clubs charter, a certain minimum number of members have to vote for anything to pass as a majority.

 

In every club leadership discussion I been part of, comes down to "IF" an inch is given on dress-code policy, people tend to take a mile. Additionally, to make a dress-code modification, leadership has to consider how new policy rules are administered, also doing so may cost extra money. Hence, dress codes seldom get modified downward to allow denim of any kind. The added reason why many clubs don't allow women members to wear what we see LPGA players wearing during tournaments.

 

That's even true at many muni courses least in CA and AZ, that have benevolent owners which make the dress-code rules. It depends greatly on where clubs are located and what type of people they attract. However, at really low-cost munies jeans and sagging are more common. Funny thing about jeans and sagging, least from what I have personally seen, they are not nicely kept jeans, lending credence to giving an inch.. beach:

 

Probably more sagging at your spinning class.

[bigred90gt]

It appears you 'can't' grasp or understand what people say, unless they totally agree with you.

 

I'm wide open to new thoughts and ideas. I'm in the 0.0006% of people who have ever had their mind changed by an internet debate.

 

But so far you've mentioned jeans being "too blue collar" and people not wanting to be associated with them. I'm looking for a realistic, non-judgemental reason why a person couldn't wear jeans to play golf. A reason that doesn't involve other people simply being judgemental.

 

Jeans that are excessively faded and/or having frayed hems, rips, tears, holes, wrinkled or dirty are NOT acceptable.

Denim of any kind is not permitted on the Golf Course or any of the practice facilities.

 

This made me laugh :) The dangers of denim!! "Totally classless material" says local upper echelon!

 

You're right internet debates never resolve or change anything. But will share my experience on the subject.

 

At every private club, I've attended as a visiting board or leadership representative, club charters & dress-code rules have similarities. That doesn't imply all clubs were high-end, most were moderately priced. Club leadership administers all charter rulings, including dress-code which only gets modified by a majority club vote, and depending on the clubs charter, a certain minimum number of members have to vote for anything to pass as a majority.

 

In every club leadership discussion I been part of, comes down to "IF" an inch is given on dress-code policy, people tend to take a mile. Additionally, to make a dress-code modification, leadership has to consider how new policy rules are administered, also doing so may cost extra money. Hence, dress codes seldom get modified downward to allow denim of any kind. The added reason why many clubs don't allow women members to wear what we see LPGA players wearing during tournaments.

 

That's even true at many muni courses least in CA and AZ, that have benevolent owners which make the dress-code rules. It depends greatly on where clubs are located and what type of people they attract. However, at really low-cost munies jeans and sagging are more common. Funny thing about jeans and sagging, least from what I have personally seen, they are not nicely kept jeans, lending credence to giving an inch.. beach:

 

Nobody on this discussion, with the exception being you, is talking about “sagging”. We’re simply talking about pants made of denim material, aka - jeans. Nothing to do with how they are worn, that is a completely separate discussion.

 

And for the record, growing up where I did with the gangsters I grew up with, khakis (dickies brand to be precise), worn somewhere between the butt and the knee, were the pants of choice of the thought type. The guys sagging their britches weren’t wearing jeans. They were wearing the proper and elegant khakis noted in this thread. You know, the kind of pants that make a better man than denim.

[Pepperturbo]

It appears you 'can't' grasp or understand what people say, unless they totally agree with you.

 

I'm wide open to new thoughts and ideas. I'm in the 0.0006% of people who have ever had their mind changed by an internet debate.

 

But so far you've mentioned jeans being "too blue collar" and people not wanting to be associated with them. I'm looking for a realistic, non-judgemental reason why a person couldn't wear jeans to play golf. A reason that doesn't involve other people simply being judgemental.

 

Jeans that are excessively faded and/or having frayed hems, rips, tears, holes, wrinkled or dirty are NOT acceptable.

Denim of any kind is not permitted on the Golf Course or any of the practice facilities.

 

This made me laugh :) The dangers of denim!! "Totally classless material" says local upper echelon!

 

You're right internet debates never resolve or change anything. But will share my experience on the subject.

 

At every private club, I've attended as a visiting board or leadership representative, club charters & dress-code rules have similarities. That doesn't imply all clubs were high-end, most were moderately priced. Club leadership administers all charter rulings, including dress-code which only gets modified by a majority club vote, and depending on the clubs charter, a certain minimum number of members have to vote for anything to pass as a majority.

 

In every club leadership discussion I been part of, comes down to "IF" an inch is given on dress-code policy, people tend to take a mile. Additionally, to make a dress-code modification, leadership has to consider how new policy rules are administered, also doing so may cost extra money. Hence, dress codes seldom get modified downward to allow denim of any kind. The added reason why many clubs don't allow women members to wear what we see LPGA players wearing during tournaments.

 

That's even true at many muni courses least in CA and AZ, that have benevolent owners which make the dress-code rules. It depends greatly on where clubs are located and what type of people they attract. However, at really low-cost munies jeans and sagging are more common. Funny thing about jeans and sagging, least from what I have personally seen, they are not nicely kept jeans, lending credence to giving an inch.. beach:

 

Probably more sagging at your spinning class.

 

That's a good one :clapping: there little fella. Never into spinning classes. I still crank out 40-50 mi on roads plus gym work outs. How about you?.

[Pepperturbo]

It appears you 'can't' grasp or understand what people say, unless they totally agree with you.

 

I'm wide open to new thoughts and ideas. I'm in the 0.0006% of people who have ever had their mind changed by an internet debate.

 

But so far you've mentioned jeans being "too blue collar" and people not wanting to be associated with them. I'm looking for a realistic, non-judgemental reason why a person couldn't wear jeans to play golf. A reason that doesn't involve other people simply being judgemental.

 

Jeans that are excessively faded and/or having frayed hems, rips, tears, holes, wrinkled or dirty are NOT acceptable.

Denim of any kind is not permitted on the Golf Course or any of the practice facilities.

 

This made me laugh :) The dangers of denim!! "Totally classless material" says local upper echelon!

 

You're right internet debates never resolve or change anything. But will share my experience on the subject.

 

At every private club, I've attended as a visiting board or leadership representative, club charters & dress-code rules have similarities. That doesn't imply all clubs were high-end, most were moderately priced. Club leadership administers all charter rulings, including dress-code which only gets modified by a majority club vote, and depending on the clubs charter, a certain minimum number of members have to vote for anything to pass as a majority.

 

In every club leadership discussion I been part of, comes down to "IF" an inch is given on dress-code policy, people tend to take a mile. Additionally, to make a dress-code modification, leadership has to consider how new policy rules are administered, also doing so may cost extra money. Hence, dress codes seldom get modified downward to allow denim of any kind. The added reason why many clubs don't allow women members to wear what we see LPGA players wearing during tournaments.

 

That's even true at many muni courses least in CA and AZ, that have benevolent owners which make the dress-code rules. It depends greatly on where clubs are located and what type of people they attract. However, at really low-cost munies jeans and sagging are more common. Funny thing about jeans and sagging, least from what I have personally seen, they are not nicely kept jeans, lending credence to giving an inch.. beach:

 

Nobody on this discussion, with the exception being you, is talking about "sagging". We're simply talking about pants made of denim material, aka - jeans. Nothing to do with how they are worn, that is a completely separate discussion.

 

And for the record, growing up where I did with the gangsters I grew up with, khakis (dickies brand to be precise), worn somewhere between the butt and the knee, were the pants of choice of the thought type. The guys sagging their britches weren't wearing jeans. They were wearing the proper and elegant khakis noted in this thread. You know, the kind of pants that make a better man than denim.

 

I just included it as its been addressed as a concern in a past club dress code conversation. Sorry if it offended you. Don't know where you live but in SOCA cities its common attire and I am not referring to real gangsters, but wannabes cool types.

[Hawkeye77]

Probably more sagging at your spinning class.

That's a good one :clapping: there little fella. Never into spinning classes. I still crank out 40-50 mi on roads plus gym work outs. How about you?.

 

I used to watch the Tour de France and never touch equipment another man has grasped during flu season!

 

Enjoy your world - I know you do (and why the heck not)!

[bigred90gt]

 

I just included it as its been addressed as a concern in a past club dress code conversation. Sorry if it offended you. Don't know where you live but in SOCA cities its common attire and I am not referring to real gangsters, but wannabes cool types.

im not offended in any way. My pants (regardless of material) are worn at the proper elevation with a belt. I just don’t know where you come up with the correlation between jeans and sagging and what that has to do with the topic of jeans on a golf course. Sagging shouldn’t be allowed ANYWHERE. No one wants to see someone’s underbritches, pull up your pants.

[rsj1360]

I just included it as its been addressed as a concern in a past club dress code conversation. Sorry if it offended you. Don't know where you live but in SOCA cities its common attire and I am not referring to real gangsters, but wannabes cool types.

im not offended in any way. My pants (regardless of material) are worn at the proper elevation with a belt. I just don't know where you come up with the correlation between jeans and sagging and what that has to do with the topic of jeans on a golf course. Sagging shouldn't be allowed ANYWHERE. No one wants to see someone's underbritches, pull up your pants.

Again, none of anyone's business how someone else dresses. Sorry they offend your delicate eyes by showing a piece of clothing on their butt.

[Swisstrader98]

Wow. Never thought a bunch of men talking about the fashion etiquette of jeans or no jeans would generate so much conversation on WRX. Thought it would be one of those 3 post threads

[Swisstrader98]

All that being said, I once played at a course many moons ago that allowed jeans. They also basically had NO dress code, so there were some dudes with wife beaters, high top Nike basketball shoes, jeans and hats on backwards.

 

Didn’t bother me a lick but nice to know for once I felt like the best dressed guy on the course

[Shilgy]

 

I just included it as its been addressed as a concern in a past club dress code conversation. Sorry if it offended you. Don't know where you live but in SOCA cities its common attire and I am not referring to real gangsters, but wannabes cool types.

im not offended in any way. My pants (regardless of material) are worn at the proper elevation with a belt. I just don’t know where you come up with the correlation between jeans and sagging and what that has to do with the topic of jeans on a golf course. Sagging shouldn’t be allowed ANYWHERE. No one wants to see someone’s underbritches, pull up your pants.

Interesting. So someone desiring certain clothes not be worn on the course is incorrect but it's okay for you to tell folks just HOW to wear theirs?

[Hawkeye77]

If this was Jesus on the golf course would have been locked up by now!

 

Joseph the technicolor the John Daly of the ancient world - ouch that's an insult, he was the Doug Sanders of the ancient world.

[Mike73]

I have been raised to respect others by properly conversing and dressing in the context of where I am. Golf, for example, is a game that is enjoyed most by those who are a bit distinguished and cultured. They enjoy a more civilized approach to life and the games of life. I personally don't see where jeans fit into the scheme of things when referring to golf etiquette, because it seems to me, allowing jeans tears down the very fabric of what makes the game so great (no pun intended).

[Bad9]

I don't know what it is but this is now the second time in 2018 that I have read something on Golfwrx and said to myself "That might be the dumbest thing I ever read".

[duffer987]

I have been raised to respect others by properly conversing and dressing in the context of where I am. Golf, for example, is a game that is enjoyed most by those who are a bit distinguished and cultured. They enjoy a more civilized approach to life and the games of life. I personally don't see where jeans fit into the scheme of things when referring to golf etiquette, because it seems to me, allowing jeans tears down the very fabric of what makes the game so great (no pun intended).

 

If you truly believe this and are not trolling - it can be difficult to tell - you need to get out more. A lot more. And I don't mean a different golf course. I mean the world. SMH.

[Petunia Sprinkle]

[Bad9]

trolling

 

Would be my guess.

[llewol007]

Wow. Never thought a bunch of men talking about the fashion etiquette of jeans or no jeans would generate so much conversation on WRX. Thought it would be one of those 3 post threads

Thanks by the the way to making this thread longer than I was expecting it to go.

[deadsolid...shank]

Wow. Never thought a bunch of men talking about the fashion etiquette of jeans or no jeans would generate so much conversation on WRX. Thought it would be one of those 3 post threads

Thanks by the the way to making this thread longer than I was expecting it to go.

 

And it's way shorter than the one a few years ago. So far. That one got quite nasty.

[llewol007]

Wow. Never thought a bunch of men talking about the fashion etiquette of jeans or no jeans would generate so much conversation on WRX. Thought it would be one of those 3 post threads

Thanks by the the way to making this thread longer than I was expecting it to go.

 

And it's way shorter than the one a few years ago. So far. That one got quite nasty.

Amazing how something as simple as what people wear can cause lines to be drawn. I just hope those who will go to opposite sides of the spectrum also realize their own reservations they have about what people wear on the course. Just goes to show things can be viewed differently just by where you live. Doesn't mean one is right and another view is wrong. That's why we have discussions to show how wrong Jean wearers are. Now if you are offended by the last comment, take a deep breath and know this topic will soon go away once more.