Article : being a cart girl is a sexist nightmare

[Sawgrass]

 

I mean can a stripper claim harassment for some guy throwing a single on the dance floor at her? At some point people have to accept the positions they've chosen and the attention that comes with it.

 

At some point men need to recognize that there's a difference between a stripper and a cart girl. You don't seem to have noticed, but I"m pretty sure that time is now.

[ratspros]

 

I mean can a stripper claim harassment for some guy throwing a single on the dance floor at her? At some point people have to accept the positions they've chosen and the attention that comes with it.

 

At some point men need to recognize that there's a difference between a stripper and a cart girl. You don't seem to have noticed, but I"m pretty sure that time is now.

 

I'm am well aware of the difference. Anyone, male or female, needs to understand that different jobs come with different benefits and different negatives. A benifit of the service industry is tip, lots and lots of tips, male or female. A negative of the service industry is flirting with people you may not be attracted to. You know that getting into your job. Suck it up and deal with it. You don't want to deal with it, then get another job.

 

Anything crosses the line then sure slap the moron, report it to management, have that patron kicked out. But to be in service industry and complain about flirting is ludicrous. Male or Female.

[Petethreeput]

It's Vice...

 

For all the issues she had, she worked there for four summers. Four.

 

If it's so bad why do you go back?

 

Decent money? Check

Free golf? Check

Discounted gear? Check

Flexible hours? Check

 

[thevaporz]

I wouldn't hire this girl for any service job after all that shade thrown at her customers, especially the part where she bashed all the female clientele for no reason. Horrible attitude.

 

I know it's Vice, I get it and I like their television station, but she comes off as a petty, insecure person looking for attention. Click her name in the article and read some of her other articles.

 

I've never witnessed someone harass/ mistreat/ abuse a cart girl and if I did I'm pretty sure that person would be kicked off the course. I feel like some of her stuff is made up.

[LeoLeo99]

I wouldn't hire this girl for any service job after all that shade thrown at her customers, especially the part where she bashed all the female clientele for no reason. Horrible attitude.

 

I know it's Vice, I get it and I like their television station, but she comes off as a petty, insecure person looking for attention. Click her name in the article and read some of her other articles.

 

I've never witnessed someone harass/ mistreat/ abuse a cart girl and if I did I'm pretty sure that person would be kicked off the course. I feel like some of her stuff is made up.

 

Not the jokes part. I only know two kinds of jokes. Dad and dirty.

[thevaporz]

^I agree. Old guy jokes at my club are the best. I'm a Carlin kinda guy. And Mitch Hedberg. I'm definitely using that prostitute cereal joke next time (NOT on the cart girl!).

[DDG61]

 

Glad to see “sexist” now includes varied senses of humor.

 

Another thing for those referring to her as a teenager. True she was for half this time, she was also an adult for the entire time.

 

Personally accountability should be explored. Life’s not fair...this didn’t even reach that level.

 

 

[Halebopp]

No, a cart girl or a real estate agent doesn't need to be subjected to unsolicited advances, greasy jokes and whatnot, it's not a part of the job. The job is to serve drinks, snacks and whatever else they might have.

 

While life isn't fair, it's very easy to make it more fair. We all make a conscious decision whether we want to make the other person feel uncomfortable or good and respected with the way we choose to behave.

 

As for "restriction orders if someone asks to go out on a date for the second time", well that's just a straw man argument. All I said was that it showed lack of respect for the other person and is harassment. I'd certainly be worried though if someone came up to me for the 15th time, that would certainly be stalking but good for you if it worked out.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

A good tip for the unreconstructed is “if you don’t know the difference between flirting and sexual harassment then stop flirting!

 

That line is constantly being redrawn. What was flirting 30 years ago is now harassment.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure respectful flirting was and is acceptable. In fact, it's probably the only way our species can survive.

 

Yes, I'm quite sure. In some schools, for example, asking for a date a second time is harassment.

 

What else could it be? The other person said no once already, let him/her be.

 

Edit: I can't believe they sent the Lexi thread to cooler instead of this one.

 

I think the time between making the requests can matter. Making two requests in a week is different from making two requests in a year.

[TheLarch]

I was in a group where one of the guys was so rude to the cart girl that I chased her down and apologized. It wasn't sexual, just incredibly rude. That guy has since proven the adage that you can judge people by how they treat the "little people". Total knob.

"We are often times mis-judged by our superiors, but never by our subordinates."

You're exactly right.

[Wooderson]

Some of y'all squat to pee. Unreal.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

Glad to see “sexist” now includes varied senses of humor.

 

Another thing for those referring to her as a teenager. True she was for half this time, she was also an adult for the entire time.

 

Personally accountability should be explored. Life’s not fair...this didn’t even reach that level.

If you are suggesting that a young woman should be free of harassment at 18, but legitimately subject to it due to age three years later, it is your personal accountability which needs exploration.

[MtlJeff]

This is a tough subject because frankly I agree with both sides. I have seen both in an office setting, out on the course with cart girls, or in restaurants... behaviour from older men to younger girls that is pretty deplorable. We have suspended members from our club for it actually. There are things that people just shouldn't be subjected to, and there is a major difference between some light flirting that is part of many service jobs (for men and women) and being hyper sexualized by people and made to feel like some kind of piece of meat. I have seen that and no one deserves that.

 

Now on the flipside, I have also been part of corporate harrassment courses that are so commically the inverse that it actually empowers the opinions of people that say we are too soft

 

I mean many corporate guidelines on the matter are "if someone feels harassed, then you have harrassed them" end of story. I have seen employees get punished for behavior that no one (male or female) in the surrounding area thought was offensive or excessive.

 

Every situation is different. My initial reaction though to someone saying being a cart girl is mostly always bad, is that they are probably crying wolf a bit. Because these situations seem to be more exception than the norm

[DDG61]

Glad to see “sexist” now includes varied senses of humor.

 

Another thing for those referring to her as a teenager. True she was for half this time, she was also an adult for the entire time.

 

Personally accountability should be explored. Life’s not fair...this didn’t even reach that level.

If you are suggesting that a young woman should be free of harassment at 18, but legitimately subject to it due to age three years later, it is your personal accountability which needs exploration.

 

Not suggesting anything. Stating that nothing I read constitutes harassment. It may to some people and if so it is their responsibility to make that known which she did not.

 

I would be uncomfortable delivering or receiving hugs or having photos taken and would make this known to the other party-personal accountability.

 

Many cart girls initiate this behavior, how do we label, classify them?

 

 

[Sawgrass]

 

Many cart girls initiate this behavior, how do we label, classify them?

Unless they are harassing you, classify it as being within their rights.

 

And consider the power imbalance in the typical encounter. A likely stronger, perhaps slightly drunk man surrounded by his smiling friends vs. a very young woman trying to figure out the level of danger.

 

To all those who find justification in harassment due to the woman's age or her having selected a job for tips in a service industry, I would hope that your being aware that at least some of these women are offended is cause enough to dial it back. Is that so hard?

[Under2hours]

How sad listening to middle aged, mostly white men (yes jumping to conclusions) telling a female how she should feel.

 

My daughter was a cart girl too and she had some bad days too and way too many men acting inappropriately.

 

And yes she went back and made very good money. That doesn't however mean it is right to put up or be subject to that behaviour.

 

I too try to be very careful in my interactions with cart girls, as am old enough to be fathers to them all (in my 50's)......

 

And yes the comment about women members is not uncommon at private clubs.

 

At the club many of the staff are my children's age (20-25) and I treat them as such and all were great last year and many went out of the way to say so, when I'd ask how other's would treat them (as I know my daughter's stories at a high end public course).

 

Difference is we don't allow tipping at our club.

[Oldboy]

How about taking a step back and thinking about why this job has to be filled by attractive young girls. It’s a sexist concept to begin with tbh. Maybe we should start there

[BlackDiamondPar5]

How sad listening to middle aged, mostly white men (yes jumping to conclusions) telling a female how she should feel.

 

My daughter was a cart girl too and she had some bad days too and way too many men acting inappropriately.

 

And yes she went back and made very good money. That doesn't however mean it is right to put up or be subject to that behaviour.

 

I too try to be very careful in my interactions with cart girls, as am old enough to be fathers to them all (in my 50's)......

 

And yes the comment about women members is not uncommon at private clubs.

 

At the club many of the staff are my children's age (20-25) and I treat them as such and all were great last year and many went out of the way to say so, when I'd ask how other's would treat them (as I know my daughter's stories at a high end public course).

 

Difference is we don't allow tipping at our club.

Come on... You're in too much of a rush to finish in under 2 hours to flirt anyway :)

[deadsolid...shank]

 

Many cart girls initiate this behavior, how do we label, classify them?

Unless they are harassing you, classify it as being within their rights.

 

And consider the power imbalance in the typical encounter. A likely stronger, perhaps slightly drunk man surrounded by his smiling friends vs. a very young woman trying to figure out the level of danger.

 

To all those who find justification in harassment due to the woman's age or her having selected a job for tips in a service industry, I would hope that your being aware that at least some of these women are offended is cause enough to dial it back. Is that so hard?

 

I'm sorry Sawgrass, but "level of danger" is a bit excessive. There may well a level of uncomfortableness, but I hardly think they are in danger.

[deadsolid...shank]

Bottom line, if she went back, three more times/seasons, the pluses of the job must have outweighed the negatives.

 

If it was so terrible, I don't think you put yourself back in the position, again, again, and again.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Bottom line, if she went back, three more times/seasons, the pluses of the job must have outweighed the negatives.

 

If it was so terrible, I don't think you put yourself back in the position, again, again, and again.

This x1000! It's unfortunate that she has to put up with certain behavior, but obviously she determined that it was worth it. We're talking about an entry level job, those that grow on trees, she could find another if it wasn't worth it.

[ProphetLogic]

The question on the table isn't whether the behavior of some of her customers was inappropriate, no one is arguing that it wasn't. The question is what can be done about it? Her solution was to cross her fingers and hope that human decency prevailed, which apparently did not happen according to the article.

 

Any time you deal with customer service or the public, you will have negative interactions. Bartenders, retail sales, car dealers, utility workers, postal workers, cops, firemen, nurses, doctors, etc etc. They all get screamed at, cursed at, in some cases physically attacked. You have to decide how you're going to deal with it.

[Sawgrass]

Bottom line, if she went back, three more times/seasons, the pluses of the job must have outweighed the negatives.

 

If it was so terrible, I don't think you put yourself back in the position, again, again, and again.

To society's utter shame, criminals sometimes shoot at police. Yet police continue with their work, as the plusses of the job outweigh the negatives.

 

An over-dramatized exaggeration, to be sure, but the point's the same. The fact that someone continues to work in a job in which they are sometimes abused does not justify the abuse.

 

IMO "a gentleman's game" means both not cheating and not making young women uncomfortable. We all know when a harmless flirt crosses the line.

[Big Ben]

I've seen banter with the cart girls it's a fact of life. I have not however seen it go beyond harmless flirtation. I'm so glad I'm not a single male in this society now I would want a date to sign a consent waiver before I ever tried to sneak a kiss! Seems having any attraction to a women these days is fraught with potential liability. Maybe it's population control! BB

[DDG61]

Bottom line, if she went back, three more times/seasons, the pluses of the job must have outweighed the negatives.

 

If it was so terrible, I don't think you put yourself back in the position, again, again, and again.

To society's utter shame, criminals sometimes shoot at police. Yet police continue with their work, as the plusses of the job outweigh the negatives.

 

An over-dramatized exaggeration, to be sure, but the point's the same. The fact that someone continues to work in a job in which they are sometimes abused does not justify the abuse.

 

IMO "a gentleman's game" means both not cheating and not making young women uncomfortable. We all know when a harmless flirt crosses the line.

 

Police being shot at is part of a job description not abuse and known going into the job. The same can be said for a large majority of what was classified as a nightmare. You seem to think your opinion on being a gentleman and what a woman thinks is flirting or abuse is globally factual.

 

Ever consider you don't think like everyone or have the same opinions? If yes this is when feedback from the other party is immensely powerful.

 

Think of all the positive change she could have made over those four years making her discomfort known to the individuals or her manager (female).

[Sawgrass]

Bottom line, if she went back, three more times/seasons, the pluses of the job must have outweighed the negatives.

 

If it was so terrible, I don't think you put yourself back in the position, again, again, and again.

To society's utter shame, criminals sometimes shoot at police. Yet police continue with their work, as the plusses of the job outweigh the negatives.

 

An over-dramatized exaggeration, to be sure, but the point's the same. The fact that someone continues to work in a job in which they are sometimes abused does not justify the abuse.

 

IMO "a gentleman's game" means both not cheating and not making young women uncomfortable. We all know when a harmless flirt crosses the line.

 

Police being shot at is part of a job description not abuse and known going into the job. The same can be said for a large majority of what was classified as a nightmare. You seem to think your opinion on being a gentleman and what a woman thinks is flirting or abuse is globally factual.

 

Ever consider you don't think like everyone or have the same opinions? If yes this is when feedback from the other party is immensely powerful.

 

Think of all the positive change she could have made over those four years making her discomfort known to the individuals or her manager (female).

I am fully aware that my opinion is different than yours. Mine has no potential to hurt someone, which kind of gives it a boost on my rating scale.

 

In my mind this woman did her cause far more good by publishing her feelings than she would have done by confronting some men privately. No doubt she could have done more, as could we all. But at least she got us talking. And who knows, maybe now someone will choose to be more careful than they otherwise would have been.

[DDG61]

Bottom line, if she went back, three more times/seasons, the pluses of the job must have outweighed the negatives.

 

If it was so terrible, I don't think you put yourself back in the position, again, again, and again.

To society's utter shame, criminals sometimes shoot at police. Yet police continue with their work, as the plusses of the job outweigh the negatives.

 

An over-dramatized exaggeration, to be sure, but the point's the same. The fact that someone continues to work in a job in which they are sometimes abused does not justify the abuse.

 

IMO "a gentleman's game" means both not cheating and not making young women uncomfortable. We all know when a harmless flirt crosses the line.

 

Police being shot at is part of a job description not abuse and known going into the job. The same can be said for a large majority of what was classified as a nightmare. You seem to think your opinion on being a gentleman and what a woman thinks is flirting or abuse is globally factual.

 

Ever consider you don't think like everyone or have the same opinions? If yes this is when feedback from the other party is immensely powerful.

 

Think of all the positive change she could have made over those four years making her discomfort known to the individuals or her manager (female).

I am fully aware that my opinion is different than yours. Mine has no potential to hurt someone, which kind of gives it a boost on my rating scale.

 

In my mind this woman did her cause far more good by publishing her feelings than she would have done by confronting some men privately. No doubt she could have done more, as could we all. But at least she got us talking. And who knows, maybe now someone will choose to be more careful than they otherwise would have been.

 

Agree to disagree in regards to publishing her feelings years later. Hopefully these men and women read her article and change their ways...

 

The men you’ve referred to multiple times as a “physical danger” to this girl may disagree in regards to your opinions not hurting someone.

[dlygrisse]

I’ve worked in the service industry for many years. Restaurants CC’s etc. I’ve played at many courses with “cart girls” most of which were attractive young ladies.

 

While I have seen many people, both male and female, flirt with cart girls or cocktail waitresses and males employees as well. In fact as a younger man I had this happen to me personally on occasion. I have rarely seen it get to the point where it gets offensive, but yes I have had to intervene and NO the customer is NOT always right, and this is a prime example. I have literally asked people to leave a place of business and not return because of their behavior.

 

On the flip side I have witnessed waitresses and cart girls beg to wear skimpier or more revealing “uniforms” in order to make more tips. They know flirting will earn them more income. I have witnessed cart girls do suggestive things such as bending over and revealing parts of their anatomy to gain attention etc. while getting beer out of the cooler. I have had to have discussions with employees because they physically modified their uniforms to be more revealing.

 

Management needs to make a decision on what kind of operation they want to run and consider the consequences. Obviously places like Hooters are on one end of the spectrum. In this day and age the line that can’t be crossed is getting narrower and narrower.

 

How would you behave if a family member is with you? Would you want your daughter to work there? Some people don’t mind if their daughter uses their “assets” to earn a bigger income, some would be mortified. But again if there is a problem the clubs management needs to address it.

 

 

[Under2hours]

How sad listening to middle aged, mostly white men (yes jumping to conclusions) telling a female how she should feel.

 

My daughter was a cart girl too and she had some bad days too and way too many men acting inappropriately.

 

And yes she went back and made very good money. That doesn't however mean it is right to put up or be subject to that behaviour.

 

I too try to be very careful in my interactions with cart girls, as am old enough to be fathers to them all (in my 50's)......

 

And yes the comment about women members is not uncommon at private clubs.

 

At the club many of the staff are my children's age (20-25) and I treat them as such and all were great last year and many went out of the way to say so, when I'd ask how other's would treat them (as I know my daughter's stories at a high end public course).

 

Difference is we don't allow tipping at our club.

Come on... You're in too much of a rush to finish in under 2 hours to flirt anyway :)

Plenty of time to talk to them within that two hours. Often talk to the wait staff in the lounge/bar to see how they are doing.

[Sawgrass]

 

The men you’ve referred to multiple times as a “physical danger” to this girl may disagree in regards to your opinions not hurting someone.

 

Did I refer "multiple times" to men being a physical danger? Or did you just make that up?