Article : being a cart girl is a sexist nightmare

[Sawgrass]

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists, and is demonstrated as frequently as it is, is because too many men look the other way when they see it being exhibited. So removing yourself from the situation is not a productive thing to do. Hence, seven pages (so far) of some people justifying their behavior and others questioning that very behavior.

 

BTW, I suspect zero of us are concerned with anyone simply returning flirtation. Some have a huge problem with "flirtation" being repeatedly forced on someone who has a job to do and is not as free to leave the encounter as she would normally be.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists is not because we look the other way. Having managed beverage servers, I can tell you that they know "the game" and 99.9% of them can take care of themselves. Even when I've observed "inexcusable behavior," I always ask them if they want me to remove a customer before I do. THEY decide if they want to put up with his behavior in exchange for the tips they are earning. They have never asked me to remove someone because I've never let it get that far.

 

And for the record, these women don't dress up as Sister Mary Catherine the Nun on Halloween. It's always the slutty Catholic schoolgirl outfit. Not saying they are asking for it. But they know the game and how to play it.

 

They don't need your rescue any more than we need your moral lectures.

Maybe they need a great guy like you following them around when they're out there on their own.

[Roadking2003]

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists, and is demonstrated as frequently as it is, is because too many men look the other way when they see it being exhibited. So removing yourself from the situation is not a productive thing to do. Hence, seven pages (so far) of some people justifying their behavior and others questioning that very behavior.

 

BTW, I suspect zero of us are concerned with anyone simply returning flirtation. Some have a huge problem with "flirtation" being repeatedly forced on someone who has a job to do and is not as free to leave the encounter as she would normally be.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists is not because we look the other way. Having managed beverage servers, I can tell you that they know "the game" and 99.9% of them can take care of themselves. Even when I've observed "inexcusable behavior," I always ask them if they want me to remove a customer before I do. THEY decide if they want to put up with his behavior in exchange for the tips they are earning. They have never asked me to remove someone because I've never let it get that far.

 

And for the record, these women don't dress up as Sister Mary Catherine the Nun on Halloween. It's always the slutty Catholic schoolgirl outfit. Not saying they are asking for it. But they know the game and how to play it.

 

They don't need your rescue any more than we need your moral lectures.

 

Exactly! Only an idiot would not realize the working environment. And then come back for three more years? The girl needs counseling.

[PALS-SSA]

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists, and is demonstrated as frequently as it is, is because too many men look the other way when they see it being exhibited. So removing yourself from the situation is not a productive thing to do. Hence, seven pages (so far) of some people justifying their behavior and others questioning that very behavior.

 

BTW, I suspect zero of us are concerned with anyone simply returning flirtation. Some have a huge problem with "flirtation" being repeatedly forced on someone who has a job to do and is not as free to leave the encounter as she would normally be.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists is not because we look the other way. Having managed beverage servers, I can tell you that they know "the game" and 99.9% of them can take care of themselves. Even when I've observed "inexcusable behavior," I always ask them if they want me to remove a customer before I do. THEY decide if they want to put up with his behavior in exchange for the tips they are earning. They have never asked me to remove someone because I've never let it get that far.

 

And for the record, these women don't dress up as Sister Mary Catherine the Nun on Halloween. It's always the slutty Catholic schoolgirl outfit. Not saying they are asking for it. But they know the game and how to play it.

 

They don't need your rescue any more than we need your moral lectures.

Maybe they need a great guy like you following them around when they're out there on their own.

 

Nobody is going to lose their job if they drive away from a foursome. Especially if they report the offender and describe what happened. If there is a need to confront them, the management can go out and address the party involved and (if necessary) remove the issue from her workplace.

 

What they don't need or want is someone like you making them out to be weak and in need of protection. They aren't damsels in distress and you aren't going to save them by acting all high and mighty on here. Hopefully, one day, that'll get through to you.

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

[Sawgrass]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

[Sean2]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

Absolutely agree with this. Advocates of situational ethics might not however, i.e., acts of behavior are viewed in a particular context when ethically evaluated versus moral absolutes. While I am not much of a fan of absolutes, I am a fan of civil behavior, regardless of the context one finds oneself in.

 

As to those who may argue that the cart girl has a certain level of "expectation" with regards to the behavior of her clientele to me that is just an excuse to engage in boorish behavior.

[RollingRocks]

You lost me at "Vice".

[Roadking2003]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

At the risk of beating this dead horse, I don't think anybody opposes civil behavior.

 

There are two unrelated debates here;

 

1. How should golfers (and really everybody) behave. Almost everybody agrees our behavior should be civil and non harassing. Nobody is defending harassment. But real life isn't that kind.

 

2. What should a young girl do if she finds herself in a job where harassment is common. Most of us say she should speak up and then quit if that doesn't solve the problem.

[Sawgrass]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

At the risk of beating this dead horse, I don't think anybody opposes civil behavior.

 

There are two unrelated debates here;

 

1. How should golfers (and really everybody) behave. Almost everybody agrees our behavior should be civil and non harassing. Nobody is defending harassment. But real life isn't that kind.

 

2. What should a young girl do if she finds herself in a job where harassment is common. Most of us say she should speak up and then quit if that doesn't solve the problem.

If you say that a girl who finds herself in harassing situations should simply quit if speaking up doesn't solve the problem, you yourself are in fact opposing civil behavior.

 

The girl shouldn't have to change her job, the job conditions should have to change. No one should have to put up with harassment. Look at the definition of that word!

[Roadking2003]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

At the risk of beating this dead horse, I don't think anybody opposes civil behavior.

 

There are two unrelated debates here;

 

1. How should golfers (and really everybody) behave. Almost everybody agrees our behavior should be civil and non harassing. Nobody is defending harassment. But real life isn't that kind.

 

2. What should a young girl do if she finds herself in a job where harassment is common. Most of us say she should speak up and then quit if that doesn't solve the problem.

If you say that a girl who finds herself in harassing situations should simply quit if speaking up doesn't solve the problem, you yourself are in fact opposing civil behavior.

 

The girl shouldn't have to change her job, the job conditions should have to change. No one should have to put up with harassment. Look at the definition of that word!

 

"No one should have to put up with harassment. " I agree, and don't have to look up the definition.

 

But life is not about what should happen. Life is about what does happen.

 

If you have lived in the real world very long you quickly learn that life is not fair. Life is full of bias, harassment, favoritism, politics, cronyism and bad luck. People learn to work with our around these issues. Sometimes they have to change jobs.

 

If kids are being taught that their lives will happen as the should, they will be sorely disappointed.

[Bloom]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

At the risk of beating this dead horse, I don't think anybody opposes civil behavior.

 

There are two unrelated debates here;

 

1. How should golfers (and really everybody) behave. Almost everybody agrees our behavior should be civil and non harassing. Nobody is defending harassment. But real life isn't that kind.

 

2. What should a young girl do if she finds herself in a job where harassment is common. Most of us say she should speak up and then quit if that doesn't solve the problem.

If you say that a girl who finds herself in harassing situations should simply quit if speaking up doesn't solve the problem, you yourself are in fact opposing civil behavior.

 

The girl shouldn't have to change her job, the job conditions should have to change. No one should have to put up with harassment. Look at the definition of that word!

 

"No one should have to put up with harassment. " I agree, and don't have to look up the definition.

 

But life is not about what should happen. Life is about what does happen.

 

If you have lived in the real world very long you quickly learn that life is not fair. Life is full of bias, harassment, favoritism, politics, cronyism and bad luck. People learn to work with our around these issues. Sometimes they have to change jobs.

 

If kids are being taught that their lives will happen as the should, they will be sorely disappointed.

 

Sounds like you are just accepting that sexual harassment will happen. I think what Sawgrass is getting at, is that people understand that it will happen, but in no way should it be accepted. Do something to make it better. There's a difference between accepting and understanding.

[Sawgrass]

Yes, Bloom. Each of us has the capacity to make things better.

[CJPenny]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

At the risk of beating this dead horse, I don't think anybody opposes civil behavior.

 

There are two unrelated debates here;

 

1. How should golfers (and really everybody) behave. Almost everybody agrees our behavior should be civil and non harassing. Nobody is defending harassment. But real life isn't that kind.

 

2. What should a young girl do if she finds herself in a job where harassment is common. Most of us say she should speak up and then quit if that doesn't solve the problem.

If you say that a girl who finds herself in harassing situations should simply quit if speaking up doesn't solve the problem, you yourself are in fact opposing civil behavior.

 

The girl shouldn't have to change her job, the job conditions should have to change. No one should have to put up with harassment. Look at the definition of that word!

 

"No one should have to put up with harassment. " I agree, and don't have to look up the definition.

 

But life is not about what should happen. Life is about what does happen.

 

If you have lived in the real world very long you quickly learn that life is not fair. Life is full of bias, harassment, favoritism, politics, cronyism and bad luck. People learn to work with our around these issues. Sometimes they have to change jobs.

 

If kids are being taught that their lives will happen as the should, they will be sorely disappointed.

 

Whether or not the cart girl continues to work has nothing to do with the topic of harassment. The focus should be on combating harassment and making sure that such behavior is universally recognized as unacceptable and is stamped out. It's her right to decide whether she wants to continue to work or not, and she shouldn't be judged for making either decision. However, it is not a golfers' right to harass a member of the course staff.

[ProphetLogic]

Maybe we could have some buttons or little rubber wristbands made up showing our support for anti cartperson harassment.

[TheLarch]

Maybe we could have some buttons or little rubber wristbands made up showing our support for anti cartperson harassment.

#Cartpersonstrong

[Roadking2003]

Whether or not the cart girl continues to work has nothing to do with the topic of harassment.

 

I agree. They are two different issues as I posted above.

 

However, it is not a golfers' right to harass a member of the course staff.

 

I think everyone agrees with that.

[Roadking2003]

Sounds like you are just accepting that sexual harassment will happen. I think what Sawgrass is getting at, is that people understand that it will happen, but in no way should it be accepted. Do something to make it better. There's a difference between accepting and understanding.

 

I know that all kinds of bad things will happen. Only a fool thinks bad things will not happen because he refuses to acknowledge them.

 

Are you are trying to say that I approve of harassment? That would be twisting my post about 180 degrees.

[Hot Rod 71]

 

 

You've either never worked in a service based job, or you are simply clueless to what people who work for tips will tolerate to make a living.

 

I do my best to avoid anyone having to "tolerate" my behavior. The fact that people do tolerate rudeness is not something I rely on.

 

It's quite depressing that my advocating civil behavior is so upsetting to some people. Ya really need to stamp that out, huh?

 

At the risk of beating this dead horse, I don't think anybody opposes civil behavior.

 

There are two unrelated debates here;

 

1. How should golfers (and really everybody) behave. Almost everybody agrees our behavior should be civil and non harassing. Nobody is defending harassment. But real life isn't that kind.

 

2. What should a young girl do if she finds herself in a job where harassment is common. Most of us say she should speak up and then quit if that doesn't solve the problem.

If you say that a girl who finds herself in harassing situations should simply quit if speaking up doesn't solve the problem, you yourself are in fact opposing civil behavior.

 

The girl shouldn't have to change her job, the job conditions should have to change. No one should have to put up with harassment. Look at the definition of that word!

 

Any organization that chooses to ignore an employee's claim of sexual harassment is asking for a lawsuit. I work for an organization that does not tolerate sexual harassment (or any type). Any report is investigated to the fullest and offenders are dealt with. Pretty simple.

[hahanice]

Man what a fun read this has been. A few thoughts.

 

I've seen this happen quite a bit, and it's disgusting. Been some of my friends and I've genuinely been embarrassed. Asking them out or for a number is fine, and I don't even mind trying again as long as it's sincere. Anything beyond that is headed towards harassment. Talking vulgar and getting handsy is horrifying.

 

Only seen it when someone's blasted, and it's usually the guys who do worse with women in real life. Or guys who are super old and wanna prove they still have it.

 

I also understand that sex sells. There's a reason why cart girls are hot and young, and I'm sure they know how to use what they have to maximize their earnings.

 

Buuut while she went back for 4 more summers we have no idea what her circumstances were. Maybe the other jobs she could get wouldn't pay enough to pay her tuition. We have no idea.

 

 

And if some dude was showing up to where my wife was out with friends and asking her out on 14 separate occasions after she had said no, you can believe there would be problems... and that the authorities would be involved.

 

If someone did that to a single friend of mine, same thing.

 

I'm glad that worked out for you, and you guys have a really cool and unique story. I just though the way that came out like it couldn't be seen as harassment in any circumstance was weird

 

 

[Mikeski]

The bottom line is the prettier the cart girl the more crap she'll have to put up with from the idiots. If the cart girl really isn't attractive you won't be seeing an article any time soon like this.

 

Here's an interesting question- does the looks of the cart girl influence your decission get anything from her when she stops?

[Bonneville85308]

Here's an interesting question- does the looks of the cart girl influence your decission get anything from her when she stops?

 

Not for me. I usually don't buy anything from them no matter what they look like. I'm that guy the course management doesn't like because I pack my own non-alcoholic drinks and food.

 

I rarely witness vulgar conduct or talk towards a cart girl from other people, if I do it's usually some random beer guzzlers I've been paired with at a public course.

[lumberman2462]

I've seen a few things that were pretty sketchy....Most older guys flirting and getting carried away with it. A few drunks saying inappropriate things.

 

I've also seen cart girls that were up for anything. Playing in a tournament in Florida years ago a guy in the group in front of us made an offer to the cart girl to partially disrobe....she was receptive and left with what I'm pretty sure was a big tip.

 

I've been fortunate to be a member at some pretty nice clubs over the past 25 years and I've only heard of one story of something that got a member in trouble....and it turned out that he'd been in 'relationship' with a cart girl that went bad.

 

Some of those cart girls do pretty well money wise.

[larrybud]

C'mon now, we all know they hire hot 25 year old women who dress provocatively because they're really good at opening a can of beer...

 

There's a reason they are "cart girls" and not "55 year old cart men"...

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

I mean, these girls at this club were clearly hired for one reason, and one reason only. They also seem to have similar "assets"

 

https://grayhawkgolf...-the-best-ever/

[LeoLeo99]

Next we'll learn that being a Hooter's waitress is a sexist nightmare.

 

C'mon now, we all know they hire hot 25 year old women who dress provocatively because they're really good at opening a can of beer...

 

There's a reason they are "cart girls" and not "55 year old cart men"...

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

I mean, these girls at this club were clearly hired for one reason, and one reason only. They also seem to have similar "assets"

 

https://grayhawkgolf...-the-best-ever/

 

https://www.royallin...rmates-gallery/

 

Gray Hawk doesn't have monopoly on sexist nightmares.

[Roadking2003]

Next we'll learn that being a Hooter's waitress is a sexist nightmare.

 

C'mon now, we all know they hire hot 25 year old women who dress provocatively because they're really good at opening a can of beer...

 

There's a reason they are "cart girls" and not "55 year old cart men"...

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

I mean, these girls at this club were clearly hired for one reason, and one reason only. They also seem to have similar "assets"

 

https://grayhawkgolf...-the-best-ever/

 

https://www.royallin...rmates-gallery/

 

Gray Hawk doesn't have monopoly on sexist nightmares.

 

Wonderful! And they are dreams, not nightmares. Thanks for posting.

[wadesworld]

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything terribly offensive in that article.

 

The worst offenses are: some guy took her picture and photoshopped a butterfly under her chin. Another guy tried to get her and the cart boy to go out. Another guy told her, an 18-year-old, a joke about prostitutes. Which of those things are supposed to be horrific sexual harassment and misogyny?

 

Now, I'm sure there are cart girls who have been groped, propositioned directly (whether serious or not) for sexual acts, called unacceptable names "as a joke," etc. Those things are certainly unacceptable and should be immediately reported to management and the member should be disciplined and/or expelled.

 

However, if you wear your lowest-cut top, meet the dirty joke with one of your own, respond to a crude remark with "you couldn't keep up with me," you are encouraging the behavior. It doesn't make the behavior acceptable, but it does mean you are partly responsible for it not stopping.

[TheWoat]

What would Judith Butler say, I wonder...

 

(Don't feel embarrassed if you have to Google Judith Butler).

 

JB would say....

"gender is a social construct, therefore are no cart 'girls' , just persons acting out performative gender roles based on societal definitions and pressures"

 

Or some crap like that.