Article : being a cart girl is a sexist nightmare

[LeoLeo99]

6 pages in and I am amazed.

Anyone normalizing sexist behavior to a young girl whose sole purpose is to pour drinks is unbelievable to me.

Sure, some play the game to make more money, but just because they play the game doesn't mean it is OK for the guy.

This is crazy talk. I am not a snowflake, but I am a parent, and there is simply no place for this.

 

Young women, not young girls.

[Bushwood Country Club]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

[Sawgrass]

Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

Justify much?

 

Not treating a female beverage server as if she was a stripper would be a good start if you're having trouble with all this. If that makes you feel like a eunuch, so be it.

[rsj1360]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

You are saying that a 16 yr old cart girl is the same thing as a stripper? *smfh*

 

You really can't be serious.

[LeoLeo99]

16 year olds can serve beer in your neck of the woods?

[Petethreeput]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

 

My kids aren’t cart girls BTW. But the rationalization that because they are attractive they should subjected to male objectification is wrong.

They are there to do a job, pour drinks, make nice with the patrons, and enhance the golfers experience. At no point is their job to put up with drunk/ stupid guys who equate attractive or niceties with a floozy who “wants them.”

I have never seen a cart girl spin on the margarita machine.

And the whole premise of the restaurants you mention is to accentuate their bodies, and that is why people eat there. That is hardly ever a reason to go to the golf course. Completely different.

I feel like you took a very rational thought, made it irrational and then justified it.

[MtlJeff]

I feel like debates like this become these back and forths between extremes....like every cart girl is either just a sex-ed up stripper temptress playing us all for fools to get our money, or they are a choir girl working her first job and who has never kissed a boy and is in way above her head with a bunch of Harvey Weinstein's

 

99% of the time it's somewhere in the middle. Sure an 18-22yr old attractive girl probably knows she's attractive and knows how to flirt a bit, there's no crime in that. Have you ever met an 18-22yd old male? They would have sex with a bagel if it looked at them the right way

 

Most behavior is harmless....I doubt most cart girls would characterize the job as a "sexist nightmare"

 

That being said, anyone who has spent enough time at various business dinners or golf outings, probably at some point (maybe 1/25 times?) will see some behavior that crosses the line, either by a bit or by a lot. And regardless of whether or not a girl is aware she is attractive and flirting a bit back, she doesn't deserve that

[Bushwood Country Club]

You are saying 16 year old girls serve cocktails? Nice try.... Read my comment again SLOWLY. Anyone who takes a job as a cart girl knows they are somewhere on the scale between working at McDonald’s (no tips) and working at Twin Peaks (big tips).

[Bushwood Country Club]

I see you jumped right to the stripper reference without bothering to process the sliding scale i depicted between a cart girl and a waitress and a stripper. Try reading my comment again...

[Roadking2003]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

You are saying that a 16 yr old cart girl is the same thing as a stripper? *smfh*

 

You really can't be serious.

 

Neither can you. 16 year olds don't serve alcohol.

 

Nice deflection, but try using facts next time.

[Bushwood Country Club]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

You are saying that a 16 yr old cart girl is the same thing as a stripper? *smfh*

 

You really can't be serious.

are you saying you cannot see the progression in my argument? or did you just skip to the last word? P.S. - Where are there 16 year old cart girls, professor?

[pldbryan]

This thread is truly baffling.....

I had no clue that there were this many people out there who really thought it was ok to act this way.

 

[Hot Rod 71]

Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

Justify much?

 

Not treating a female beverage server as if she was a stripper would be a good start if you're having trouble with all this. If that makes you feel like a eunuch, so be it.

 

But what if the cart girl dresses like a stripper, and acts like a stripper? Is it then okay? I guess we shouldn't treat strippers with respect?

[deadsolid...shank]

This thread is truly baffling.....

I had no clue that there were this many people out there who really thought it was ok to act this way.

 

I can't say for certain because I can only speak for myself. But.....I don't think anyone is coming close to condoning this type of behavior. I think many (at least imam) are saying, is there also has to be some level of responsibility on the girl. She went back for three more seasons! If it was truly, truly awful, don't you find something different to do.

 

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

[Sawgrass]

 

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists, and is demonstrated as frequently as it is, is because too many men look the other way when they see it being exhibited. So removing yourself from the situation is not a productive thing to do. Hence, seven pages (so far) of some people justifying their behavior and others questioning that very behavior.

 

BTW, I suspect zero of us are concerned with anyone simply returning flirtation. Some have a huge problem with "flirtation" being repeatedly forced on someone who has a job to do and is not as free to leave the encounter as she would normally be.

[Sawgrass]

Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

Justify much?

 

Not treating a female beverage server as if she was a stripper would be a good start if you're having trouble with all this. If that makes you feel like a eunuch, so be it.

 

But what if the cart girl dresses like a stripper, and acts like a stripper? Is it then okay? I guess we shouldn't treat strippers with respect?

I seriously doubt anyone here would be upset with a man staring at or flirting with a stripper, or with anyone who acted like a stripper. (Least of all the stripper herself.). Just be careful that you're not seeing something that isn't there, and all will be fine.

[duffer987]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

 

What customer facing position doesn't require being personable to their customers? That is kind of the point of customer service.

Since it's your argument, why don't you tell us how you see this progression and the corresponding acceptable behavior levels with each.

 

While waiting for that I will point out one of the key objective facts around the comparison: the setting.

Apart from the cart girl, these other customer facing roles likely have in close proximity to them a big burly bloke or two whose job is to protect them, other coworkers who can provide support, other customers who are sensible who naturally act as a deterrent to bad behavior by a few, physical barriers (bar, elevated stage, etc...) to protect them, explicit rules for interacting with them that make it clear of the consequences, and others.

These employees are not 2 miles from their nearest coworker, on their own and out of sight, dealing with 4+ guys who are 5+ drinks into their day and it's only the 7th hole.

That is quite simply a different dynamic that totally shifts the balance of power between employee and patron, compared to your examples. You should be able to see that at least.

[Petethreeput]

This thread is truly baffling.....

I had no clue that there were this many people out there who really thought it was ok to act this way.

 

I can't say for certain because I can only speak for myself. But.....I don't think anyone is coming close to condoning this type of behavior. I think many (at least imam) are saying, is there also has to be some level of responsibility on the girl. She went back for three more seasons! If it was truly, truly awful, don't you find something different to do.

 

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

 

I think they are. There are people blaming the girl for being flirtatious, dressing slutty, or being attractive.

Reading the article, much of what she says are things I don't consider particularly demeaning (though the photo is a little weird), but it is the awareness of the situation. To equate a beer cart girl to a T&A restaurant is a complete stretch. Most cart girls golf themselves and think it would be a fun summer job, and for most it is.

My experience, speaking about course regulars here, is the friendliness of the cart girl starts out pleasantly, and as the comfort level grows, so does the untoward behavior. And I should say, normally, that behavior isn't intended as creepy, weird, or sexualized, it is just the progression of a "friendship." Then, after the progression you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube when the young woman feels uncomfortable.

This piece is more about what would make a person feel uncomfortable. I have never leaned in on the cart, over the girl, but from her perspective, I could see that as daunting if the guy is giving off a weird vibe and there is nothing between {edit, separating} her and the guy {like a rail, table, or desk}..

My issue is this. Instead of saying, "If they can't take the heat (because they are asking for it) get out of the kitchen because I sweat machismo and can't help myself." Instead these golfers should rather being taking a personal inventory of what they do (if they do any of it at all), how to stop doing it, and then being decent human beings. By taking a golf cart job they are not asking for it, they are exposed to it, but they definitely are not asking for it and any rationalization to say they are is way off base IMO.

[irvnasty]

Did you ever consider their job is more than to just "pour drinks"? Maybe their job includes being attractive and willing to be personable to their customer base? And wearing tight fitting / revealing clothing? Do you think female bartenders ever get hit on? What about waitresses in places like Hooters, Twin Peaks, or Tilted Kilt? What about waitresses in strip clubs? What about strippers?

 

Please tell me the difference in these jobs (other than that your daughter was/is a cart girl)... Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

 

Do you think the same of nurses, doctors, schoolteachers, lawyers, engineers, politicians, businesswomen, scientists, etc?

 

Is every woman in every occupation obligated to be attractive and flirtatious to male clientele? Is every woman working a less-skilled job in the service sector obligated to do so?

 

There's sex-work, and there are some jobs that are sex-work adjacent. Normal service sector jobs are not. There are plenty of other jobs where being attractive may be advantageous (in fact, probably all jobs for both genders, to be quite honest), but the job itself does not imply the need to tantalize, and nothing sexual needs to be involved in the transaction. A cart girl is selling refreshments. Sexual stimulation is not implied. If attractiveness is used as a sales strategy to part you from your money, nothing changes.

 

And yes, some cart girls may flirt. They're allowed to escalate the interaction in that way for their entertainment or for tips, because the golfers are not under any professional obligation to remain in the transaction. If it bothers you, you can tell her to beat rocks. If you think it's unprofessional, make your grievance known to management.

 

But it is not equivalent for you to escalate the flirtation, even if the first escalation comes from her, because she cannot sever the transaction as freely as you can. She has a professional obligation to her employer to sell stuff to you in all but the most egregious of circumstances. Don't escalate the level of sexuality in a transaction with people who are serving you. It's not moral behavior. Usually, it's probably pretty harmless, but that doesn't make it excusable. A "sexual negotiation" where one party is under professional pressure is unethical. People who do it are unethical. You don't have to be neutered. Just stop running game on a captive audience. It's pathetic.

[Hot Rod 71]

Or do you just want to neuter all men and turn us into a nation of sensitive eunuchs?

Justify much?

 

Not treating a female beverage server as if she was a stripper would be a good start if you're having trouble with all this. If that makes you feel like a eunuch, so be it.

 

But what if the cart girl dresses like a stripper, and acts like a stripper? Is it then okay? I guess we shouldn't treat strippers with respect?

I seriously doubt anyone here would be upset with a man staring at or flirting with a stripper, or with anyone who acted like a stripper. (Least of all the stripper herself.). Just be careful that you're not seeing something that isn't there, and all will be fine.

 

It was a "devil's advocate" question on my part.

 

Hypothetically.....if I were with friends and the cart girl came around, and a friend began hitting on her, and I could tell it made her uncomfortable, I would say something to my friend. However, if he flirts with her and she gives it right back, almost egging it on, then its on her.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a cart girl who is dressed provocatively act like she doesn't enjoy the flirting.

[QEight]

Hypothetically.....if I were with friends and the cart girl came around, and a friend began hitting on her, and I could tell it made her uncomfortable, I would say something to my friend. However, if he flirts with her and she gives it right back, almost egging it on, then its on her.

 

And I guess this was not the issue.

[bthomps33]

6 pages in and I am amazed.

Anyone normalizing sexist behavior to a young girl whose sole purpose is to pour drinks is unbelievable to me.

Sure, some play the game to make more money, but just because they play the game doesn't mean it is OK for the guy.

This is crazy talk. I am not a snowflake, but I am a parent, and there is simply no place for this.

 

1. You have to define sexist behavior because everyone's definition is different. Looking at someone or innocently complementing someone's apparel can be defined as sexual harassment now.

2. Are you speaking for the girls, who like it?

3.So the women can play the game but not the men? When the cart girl initiated flirting with the men who didn't ask for it, isn't that sexist and inappropriate?

 

Everything goes both ways. My rule of thumb is to treat women like you want your daughter to be treated.

[Sawgrass]

When the cart girl initiated flirting with the men who didn't ask for it, isn't that sexist and inappropriate?

 

 

Sure, and when that happens to you, if you're offended, you'll have my deepest sympathy.

[bthomps33]

 

Do you think the same of nurses, doctors, schoolteachers, lawyers, engineers, politicians, businesswomen, scientists, etc?

 

Is every woman in every occupation obligated to be attractive and flirtatious to male clientele? Is every woman working a less-skilled job in the service sector obligated to do so?

 

There's sex-work, and there are some jobs that are sex-work adjacent. Normal service sector jobs are not. There are plenty of other jobs where being attractive may be advantageous (in fact, probably all jobs for both genders, to be quite honest), but the job itself does not imply the need to tantalize, and nothing sexual needs to be involved in the transaction. A cart girl is selling refreshments. Sexual stimulation is not implied. If attractiveness is used as a sales strategy to part you from your money, nothing changes.

 

And yes, some cart girls may flirt. They're allowed to escalate the interaction in that way for their entertainment or for tips, because the golfers are not under any professional obligation to remain in the transaction. If it bothers you, you can tell her to beat rocks. If you think it's unprofessional, make your grievance known to management.

 

But it is not equivalent for you to escalate the flirtation, even if the first escalation comes from her, because she cannot sever the transaction as freely as you can. She has a professional obligation to her employer to sell stuff to you in all but the most egregious of circumstances. Don't escalate the level of sexuality in a transaction with people who are serving you. It's not moral behavior. Usually, it's probably pretty harmless, but that doesn't make it excusable. A "sexual negotiation" where one party is under professional pressure is unethical. People who do it are unethical. You don't have to be neutered. Just stop running game on a captive audience. It's pathetic.

 

Are you implying that a cart girl cannot sever a transaction at anytime due to sexual harassment because, "She has a professional obligation to her employer to sell stuff to you in all but the most egregious of circumstances?"

 

Sorry, you are the problem if you believe that. Any supervisor or manager holding that position is a huge liability to the company and is opening the door to lawsuits.

[deadsolid...shank]

When the cart girl initiated flirting with the men who didn't ask for it, isn't that sexist and inappropriate?

 

 

Sure, and when that happens to you, if you're offended, you'll have my deepest sympathy.

 

If any cart girl ever flirted with me she must be so desperate (and devoid of taste ((or eyesight)), we would both be in need of deep sympathy.

[Petethreeput]

6 pages in and I am amazed.

Anyone normalizing sexist behavior to a young girl whose sole purpose is to pour drinks is unbelievable to me.

Sure, some play the game to make more money, but just because they play the game doesn't mean it is OK for the guy.

This is crazy talk. I am not a snowflake, but I am a parent, and there is simply no place for this.

 

1. You have to define sexist behavior because everyone's definition is different. Looking at someone or innocently complementing someone's apparel can be defined as sexual harassment now.

2. Are you speaking for the girls, who like it?

3.So the women can play the game but not the men? When the cart girl initiated flirting with the men who didn't ask for it, isn't that sexist and inappropriate?

 

Everything goes both ways. My rule of thumb is to treat women like you want your daughter to be treated.

 

1. Sexist behavior is any action (can go either direction but rarely toward men) in which the subordinate feels uncomfortable due to the others actions.

2. Few of the women enjoy it. For that small percentage, which the writer of the piece isn’t, it is still important for the person in the position of power to be aware of the lines. Lines which are different for each individual.

3. This is a tough one. What men often see as flirting is usually just an overly nice girl hoping for a tip. The one who laughs at bad jokes, asks about their game as if she really cares, etc. Since I have never been “hit on” that I know of I am not sure I could define a “flirty” moment.

 

I have already said, I don’t even think most men realize they are doing it. I have seen guys misconstrue niceties as real interest and reciprocate. I still think the best course of action is to simply get your drink, tip well, and say thanks.

[irvnasty]

Do you think the same of nurses, doctors, schoolteachers, lawyers, engineers, politicians, businesswomen, scientists, etc?

 

Is every woman in every occupation obligated to be attractive and flirtatious to male clientele? Is every woman working a less-skilled job in the service sector obligated to do so?

 

There's sex-work, and there are some jobs that are sex-work adjacent. Normal service sector jobs are not. There are plenty of other jobs where being attractive may be advantageous (in fact, probably all jobs for both genders, to be quite honest), but the job itself does not imply the need to tantalize, and nothing sexual needs to be involved in the transaction. A cart girl is selling refreshments. Sexual stimulation is not implied. If attractiveness is used as a sales strategy to part you from your money, nothing changes.

 

And yes, some cart girls may flirt. They're allowed to escalate the interaction in that way for their entertainment or for tips, because the golfers are not under any professional obligation to remain in the transaction. If it bothers you, you can tell her to beat rocks. If you think it's unprofessional, make your grievance known to management.

 

But it is not equivalent for you to escalate the flirtation, even if the first escalation comes from her, because she cannot sever the transaction as freely as you can. She has a professional obligation to her employer to sell stuff to you in all but the most egregious of circumstances. Don't escalate the level of sexuality in a transaction with people who are serving you. It's not moral behavior. Usually, it's probably pretty harmless, but that doesn't make it excusable. A "sexual negotiation" where one party is under professional pressure is unethical. People who do it are unethical. You don't have to be neutered. Just stop running game on a captive audience. It's pathetic.

 

Are you implying that a cart girl cannot sever a transaction at anytime due to sexual harassment because, "She has a professional obligation to her employer to sell stuff to you in all but the most egregious of circumstances?"

 

Sorry, you are the problem if you believe that. Any supervisor or manager holding that position is a huge liability to the company and is opening the door to lawsuits.

 

Not implying, stating.

 

And a professional obligation is not created by a binding contract (that would be a contractual obligation) or managerial fiat (that would be a work instruction). A professional obligation is created by the mere fact of being employed and having assigned work duties.

 

Yes, it would be very problematic for a course or the cart girl's manager to suggest to her that she must put up any untoward behavior. I imagine such a thing never happens.

 

But her manager is not present, and her account of the event is not otherwise documented. Choosing to not fulfill her work duties carries professional risk for her, even when it is a fully justified choice. She is refusing sale to a paying customer at the risk of her job with only her word against the customer's. She could easily be replaced by someone less scrupulous or principled. It is expected that she will interact with you if you want her to, because she's a service sector employee. That puts her in a tough spot if you want to interact with her in a way that makes her uncomfortable. A good manager would make clear that they have the girl's back to refuse sales to anyone who behaves disrespectfully. But these are mostly women in their late teens or early twenties, alone, interacting with a group of adult men, and not necessarily knowing what will happen interpersonally or professionally if they refuse service.

 

Cart girl hitting on you =/= you hitting on cart girl.

 

Things do go both ways. Women are responsible for how they treat men who are on the job, just as men are responsible for how they treat women on the job. It isn't a gender thing. It's recognition of the frankly obvious (and you know this somewhere in the recesses of your mind) reality that there is an asymmetry in the interaction between a service sector employee and the person being served. It is a crucially important asymmetry when you engage in any behavior that could be harmful to the employee, so you have an ethical duty to avoid harming the employee. Escalating the sexuality of the interaction has the potential to become harmful. Don't do it.

[legitimategolf]

I hate the whole attractive cart girl dynamic, makes me feel awkward and undignified.

 

The sooner I can buy drinks from a self-driving robot-cart the better.

[SNIPERBBB]

Need to play courses farther south apparently...we have to suffer to the halfway house or clubhouse for refreshments on most of the courses I play unless there is a big tournament.

[PALS-SSA]

Behavior like that is inexcusable, but the reality is, it continues to exist (and probably always will) So if it is too much to deal with, remove yourself from the situation.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists, and is demonstrated as frequently as it is, is because too many men look the other way when they see it being exhibited. So removing yourself from the situation is not a productive thing to do. Hence, seven pages (so far) of some people justifying their behavior and others questioning that very behavior.

 

BTW, I suspect zero of us are concerned with anyone simply returning flirtation. Some have a huge problem with "flirtation" being repeatedly forced on someone who has a job to do and is not as free to leave the encounter as she would normally be.

 

The reason inexcusable behavior exists is not because we look the other way. Having managed beverage servers, I can tell you that they know "the game" and 99.9% of them can take care of themselves. Even when I've observed "inexcusable behavior," I always ask them if they want me to remove a customer before I do. THEY decide if they want to put up with his behavior in exchange for the tips they are earning. They have never asked me to remove someone because I've never let it get that far.

 

And for the record, these women don't dress up as Sister Mary Catherine the Nun on Halloween. It's always the slutty Catholic schoolgirl outfit. Not saying they are asking for it. But they know the game and how to play it.

 

They don't need your rescue any more than we need your moral lectures.