Body Release/Arms Release

[progolf4life]

calling slicefixer

I know that slicefixer teaches a body release and other people teach an arm release (flipping your hands over at impact). Slicefixer, you say that a body release is a one plane and an arm release is a two plane (at least i thought that u said that). You described the body release with hogans swing picture on the follow through. I would like to know if you knew what percentage of pros used the body release vs. the arms release. Also, isn't there an in between? With the hogans swinging left theory that is a drastic move that only he could do and with the arms release you risk duck hooks. You said that with the body release your body never stops moving on the downswing and with the arms release you body will stop turning for 1-2 frames. Couldn't you keep your body moving through impact while not holding off or flipping the club left after impact? Basically keeping your body and your arms in sync without holding the face as open as hogan does in the pictures I saw.

[progolf4life]

bump

[Constantin]

I think you have a slightly wrong idea of what Mr. Hogan is doing with the face. You said he was holding it open, which in fact he is not. He simply does not have any extra (unnecessary) face rotation other than the rotation coming from his pivot. Any time the core slows down and the hands actively release the club you get extra face rotation (toe down!).

[progolf4life]

Do the pros on tour today use hogan's swinging left theory or do they flip the club? (I'm asking about most of them and if you know of any names specifically then that would be helpful too).

[JeffGladchun]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...mp;#entry700676

 

tons of information here

[wildwilly911]

non of them use theory's they use what works for them and there body will allow, ive been reading your post and you have way to much going on upstairs to even think about hitting a great golf shot. word of advice pull the plug on the info storing device on your shoulders and drain every thing out and start over with one thing in mind, a great golf swing. see a good teacher and work with them. stop reading all the different swing theory"s all they will do is mess every thing up that you have working for you. your making the golf swing way to mechanical

[TJW]

Thought I'd jump on this topic with a release question for Slicefixer, HoganFan, etc...

 

Looking at the recent Hogan videos from YouTube, it APPEARS like he holds the face open all the way into his follow-through. I KNOW he doesn't, but could you help explain the proper feeling? Would it FEEL like you are holding it open even though it's square to swing path???

 

I ask because at the range trying to replicate Hogan's follow-through, I def felt like I was leaving it open and was hitting some big fades.

 

I know the right hand doesn't roll over, but could it also be said that it NEVER gets on top of the left hand on the follow through? Maybe just under the left hand or parallel?

 

Thanks. Hope this makes sense.

 

-TJW

[hoganfan924]

Thought I'd jump on this topic with a release question for Slicefixer, HoganFan, etc...

 

Looking at the recent Hogan videos from YouTube, it APPEARS like he holds the face open all the way into his follow-through. I KNOW he doesn't, but could you help explain the proper feeling? Would it FEEL like you are holding it open even though it's square to swing path???

 

I ask because at the range trying to replicate Hogan's follow-through, I def felt like I was leaving it open and was hitting some big fades.

 

I know the right hand doesn't roll over, but could it also be said that it NEVER gets on top of the left hand on the follow through? Maybe just under the left hand or parallel?

 

Thanks. Hope this makes sense.

 

-TJW

 

Because Hogan had a strong move to the left after impact (body pivot and arms) there is no tendency for the right hand to overtake the left. He's not intentionally holding open the face IMO although it might appear that way to some. The right hand does "cross over" the left very late in his follow through, after the shoulders slow down, due to momentum. It is much later than almost any other player ever. If you look carefully, you will notice that he releases the clubhead by cupping his left wrist well after impact. He makes no attempt to keep a flat left wrist throughout the follow through. It he tried to keep a flat left wrist he would have to "roll and recock" the left wrist, which he certainly doesn't do. This cupping left wrist aspect of Hogan's release has been seriously overlooked by most golf instructors IMO (certainly not Slicefixer, who teaches this release). This kind of release "feels" like you are just letting it all go, no "hold on" whatsoever, but it must be combined with the proper elements in the backswing and dowswing for it to work (one piece of a larger puzzle). Hogan's face angle in the follow through will also be a little more open than other players that release the club like him due to his grip being a bit on the weak side.

 

To the original posted question, there are certainly a million shades of gray when it comes to how players release the club. On one end of the spectrum you have Hogan on the other, someone like Colin Montgomerie. Some guys completely stop their hip rotation very early and sling their arms down the line, some guys slow their hips down a little and have a "blended" release, some whip their hips right through to the finish and pull the butt of the club low left. The Guys that I've seen that are most like Hogan in how they release the club (besides Slicefixers students!) are Immelman and Johnathan Byrd. Others that are almost the same are Sergio, Hunter Mahan and even Furyk (you'd be surprised with such a different BS from Hogan how similar they are through impact).

[ej002]

See I was trying to hold the face open with a somewhat strong grip, and I got higher shots/fades as well... and a TOTAL loss of compression. So holding the face open cannot be the way Hogan did it. I guess there is a difference from trying to keep the toe from turning down in the downswing, as opposed to holding it open with your wrists/hands. So what you trying to say, Hoganfan, is that the way to prevent the toe from turining down is based on your rotation?

[aeijtzsche]

See I was trying to hold the face open with a somewhat strong grip, and I got higher shots/fades as well... and a TOTAL loss of compression. So holding the face open cannot be the way Hogan did it. I guess there is a difference from trying to keep the toe from turning down in the downswing, as opposed to holding it open with your wrists/hands. So what you trying to say, Hoganfan, is that the way to prevent the toe from turining down is based on your rotation?

 

You use words like "trying", "holding", "preventing", but in my opinion the "key" is that what were talking about here is a result. You aren't trying to prevent the face from closing but you're letting it stay square. If you take your normal address and then just kind of stand up and hold the club out in front of you, then rotate your torso and hips anti-clockwise toward the target, you're more or less in a released position with the clubface dead square to the path of the club.

[ChrisM84]

non of them use theory's they use what works for them and there body will allow, ive been reading your post and you have way to much going on upstairs to even think about hitting a great golf shot. word of advice pull the plug on the info storing device on your shoulders and drain every thing out and start over with one thing in mind, a great golf swing. see a good teacher and work with them. stop reading all the different swing theory"s all they will do is mess every thing up that you have working for you. your making the golf swing way to mechanical

 

 

+1

 

I think alot of us get to caught up with the mechanics of our swing, and lose it. I know I have at times.

 

Once you have sound fundamentals, sometimes the golf swing is as easy as picturing your shot and let the club do the rest.

[hoganfan924]

See I was trying to hold the face open with a somewhat strong grip, and I got higher shots/fades as well... and a TOTAL loss of compression. So holding the face open cannot be the way Hogan did it. I guess there is a difference from trying to keep the toe from turning down in the downswing, as opposed to holding it open with your wrists/hands. So what you trying to say, Hoganfan, is that the way to prevent the toe from turining down is based on your rotation?

 

You use words like "trying", "holding", "preventing", but in my opinion the "key" is that what were talking about here is a result. You aren't trying to prevent the face from closing but you're letting it stay square. If you take your normal address and then just kind of stand up and hold the club out in front of you, then rotate your torso and hips anti-clockwise toward the target, you're more or less in a released position with the clubface dead square to the path of the club.

 

Exactly, I used that very drill to teach myself the feeling of a more rotational swing.

 

Some players who release the club like Hogan have the toe turn down more than others. Grip strength has a lot to do with this as well as grip pressure. If you're hitting a very controlled "3-fingered" shot (hold on tight with the last 3 fingers of the left hand) the toe turns down less. If you have a weak grip, the toe turns down less, if your shoulder rotation slows down a little earlier, the toe turns down more. Mickey Wright's swing was very much like Hogan's but she turned the toe down quite a bit more. I think it's important where the toe is a few feet past impact (just before it disappears in front of the body in a DTL view as in the Hogan photo JeffGladchun posted a couple of weeks ago) but later in the follow through not so important.

 

For a good player that has problems hanging on their back leg and not rotating well through the shot, the "hold the face open after impact" drill can be very good one to get their body to release well through the shot, but it's just a drill. The object is to feel like you are opening the face after impact and still try to hit a straight shot. But it's only a drill. Hogan "let's it all go" as well as anyone, no hang on in his swing. If he was hanging on he'd have hit huges slices with his "weakish" grip and forearm rotation in the backswing.

 

A shut faced player (Like Zack Johnson) with very little backswing forearm rotation can rotate/release their body very hard in the downswing but will still have some "hang on" with their hands so they won't hook it. This can be a very effective way to play but it will also cost some distance and makes it much harder to hit a high shot and work the ball both ways while eliminating the snap hook.

[TJW]

Thought I'd jump back in this topic. I recently went back to the swingthought of pulling the club down and left after impact. As others have mentioned in this post, it definitely produces a bit of "hang on" at first, cupping the left wrist too long after impact. Still, I think it helps with swingpath.

Question...

...does pulling the club down AND left help me to steepen my my "too-shallow" downswing? I usually come in shallow and too inside-out. I've noticed that by trying to feel like I'm swinging over-the-top I get a better swingpath. But that requires alot of hand/arm manipulation on the downswing before even getting to the ball.

Pulling down and left w/ the left upper arm & torso and turning the right shoulder through...is this good?

HoganFan...that's certainly what it looks like you're doing in your swing.

Thanks.

-TJW

[slicefixer]

Tim, you do NOT do it with the arms........you do it with the LEFT SIDE of the body.........I'll paint ya' an image based on Mr. Hogan's "elastic" image............picture a big piece of elastic connected to your left shoulder, left hip, and left knee..........as the shoulders/core winds up it the PULLS the left hip "around," and the left hip PULLS the left knee away from the target and toward the golf ball............all 3, shoulder, hips, and knee have worked around on an ARC.........at the top the elastic is STRETCHED to the limit..........AND, at some point you can't stretch the elastic anymore the backswing PIVOT is OVER.......and as the arms/club were simply REACTING to the pivot they stop at the same time as the end of the "STRETCH' (synched arms).............at this point you just "let the stretch go" and the left knee, left hip, and left shoulder "rotate" what feels like "up and left"/"up and around" which if performed properly will result in the butt of the club being PULLED "down" during the transition and once the left pivot point is reached the butt will be PULLED left towards your left hip socket.......done correctly the "leverage" is held until PHYSICS releases it and the face squares up on it's on.........NO manipulation of the face is necessary to square it......."it just happens"...........

BTW, the UP feeling is due to the spine axis being on a tilt and not vertical......a GREAT drill you can practice to get this feeling is the "baseball drill"......your is spine vertical, you wind up as I just explained, "at the top" the arms/shaft/clubface will all be on a plane that's perpendicular to your spine (you'll have to rotate the LEFT forearm to get the arms/shaft there)........."let it go" and make that club haul a** THROUGH an IMAGINARY ball that's about waist high or slightly above.........."whoooooooosh" GREAT way of feeling what I'm talking about......GREAT drill for developing "speed".......GREAT drill for feeling the clubhead working in a "circle".........as you get good at it with your spine vertical simply set up with a small amount of "tilt" and swing through a ball that's slightly lower than waist high........then a bit lower........then a bit lower..........the next thing you'll know you'll have a GREAT golf swing........ All of my kid's can knock hell from it with the ball tee'd up on a short iron shaft.......including my 10 year old..........DEAD SOLID!

[TJW]

Thanks so much Slice. I've read hundreds of your posts, and I think this is the first time I've seen the "elastic" image. It helps!!

This is a perfect example how even a simple-sounding move (in this case, club being pulled left) needs DETAILED explanations by pros like yourself. It's why well-intentioned "tips" can go horribly wrong if not explained properly. And it's a great example of how the "quick fix" tips in all these golf mags us hacks read can do much more harm than good.

-TJW

[TJW]

Of course, a picture is worth a thousand words, too!


[attachment=207901:post_652..._1_thumb.png]

[Machinegolfer]

lets talk about it, if the body goes left, and the plane line/delivery line goes left, the right wrist will have more bend, (after impact) the left wrist will not have a tendency to "roll", no roll, the club face has simultaneous closing and laying back...call it swinging to the left...the more the plane line/ delivery line moves to the right, the less bend the right wrist will have and the more "roll" of the left wrist / faster closure rate of the clubface due to this "throwout action"

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='Machinegolfer' post='865729' date='Jan 15 2008, 06:40 PM']lets talk about it, if the body goes left, and the plane line/delivery line goes left, the right wrist will have more bend, (after impact) the left wrist will not have a tendency to "roll", no roll, the club face has simultaneous closing and laying back...call it swinging to the left...the more the plane line/ delivery line moves to the right, the less bend the right wrist will have and the more "roll" of the left wrist / faster closure rate of the clubface due to this "throwout action"[/quote]
Can you get any more TGM than that.LOL
Here is a thought on it. Which is better for a amatur to live in. IMOP I like to have delivery lines to the right 2 degrees and face open at impact for little draws, then back up the plane with the pivot...

[slicefixer]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' post='865880' date='Jan 16 2008, 12:02 AM'][quote name='Machinegolfer' post='865729' date='Jan 15 2008, 06:40 PM']lets talk about it, if the body goes left, and the plane line/delivery line goes left, the right wrist will have more bend, (after impact) the left wrist will not have a tendency to "roll", no roll, the club face has simultaneous closing and laying back...call it swinging to the left...the more the plane line/ delivery line moves to the right, the less bend the right wrist will have and the more "roll" of the left wrist / faster closure rate of the clubface due to this "throwout action"[/quote]
Can you get any more TGM than that.LOL
Here is a thought on it. Which is better for a amatur to live in. IMOP I like to have delivery lines to the right 2 degrees and face open at impact for little draws, then back up the plane with the pivot...
[/quote]


Who say's they aren't when hitting a draw.......

[slicefixer]

[quote name='TJW' post='865622' date='Jan 15 2008, 09:46 PM']Thanks so much Slice. I've read hundreds of your posts, and I think this is the first time I've seen the "elastic" image. It helps!!

This is a perfect example how even a simple-sounding move (in this case, club being pulled left) needs DETAILED explanations by pros like yourself. It's why well-intentioned "tips" can go horribly wrong if not explained properly. And it's a great example of how the "quick fix" tips in all these golf mags us hacks read can do much more harm than good.

-TJW[/quote]


Your welcome Tim........"modified the elastic" to Mr. Hogan's image.......I think the image in 5 Lessons has probably FOULED UP more people than it's helped........reason being they end up spinning the hips and leaving the upper body/arms/club "behind".......in actual fact, Mr. Hogan did as I described above..........I just modified it to represent what he actually did within' his swing.......works too........

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='865938' date='Jan 15 2008, 08:38 PM'][quote name='dana dahlquist' post='865880' date='Jan 16 2008, 12:02 AM'][quote name='Machinegolfer' post='865729' date='Jan 15 2008, 06:40 PM']lets talk about it, if the body goes left, and the plane line/delivery line goes left, the right wrist will have more bend, (after impact) the left wrist will not have a tendency to "roll", no roll, the club face has simultaneous closing and laying back...call it swinging to the left...the more the plane line/ delivery line moves to the right, the less bend the right wrist will have and the more "roll" of the left wrist / faster closure rate of the clubface due to this "throwout action"[/quote]
Can you get any more TGM than that.LOL
Here is a thought on it. Which is better for a amatur to live in. IMOP I like to have delivery lines to the right 2 degrees and face open at impact for little draws, then back up the plane with the pivot...
[/quote]


Who say's they aren't when hitting a draw.......
[/quote]
Depends what kind. Online or out to the right draw.

[caligolfer]

thank you once again slice when i say this was dead on what i was working on today. keep it coming

[slicefixer]

[quote name='caligolfer' post='866027' date='Jan 16 2008, 02:00 AM']thank you once again slice when i say this was dead on what i was working on today. keep it coming[/quote]


Your MOST welcome cali.......

[procomboil]

If i am spinning my hips as my first move........how do i get out of that and into the left side going towards target and left?

[Machinegolfer]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' post='865880' date='Jan 15 2008, 11:02 PM'][quote name='Machinegolfer' post='865729' date='Jan 15 2008, 06:40 PM']lets talk about it, if the body goes left, and the plane line/delivery line goes left, the right wrist will have more bend, (after impact) the left wrist will not have a tendency to "roll", no roll, the club face has simultaneous closing and laying back...call it swinging to the left...the more the plane line/ delivery line moves to the right, the less bend the right wrist will have and the more "roll" of the left wrist / faster closure rate of the clubface due to this "throwout action"[/quote]
Can you get any more TGM than that.LOL
Here is a thought on it. Which is better for a amatur to live in. IMOP I like to have delivery lines to the right 2 degrees and face open at impact for little draws, then back up the plane with the pivot...
[/quote]

Cmon dana, that isn't the book

[ChrisM84]

[quote name='procomboil' post='866133' date='Jan 16 2008, 05:36 AM']If i am spinning my hips as my first move........how do i get out of that and into the left side going towards target and left?[/quote]

Think of not letting your left arm pass or "catch up" to your left leg until after impact. It might help you keep your pivot moving.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='865566' date='Jan 15 2008, 08:11 PM']Tim, you do NOT do it with the arms........you do it with the LEFT SIDE of the body.........I'll paint ya' an image based on Mr. Hogan's "elastic" image............picture a big piece of elastic connected to your left shoulder, left hip, and left knee..........as the shoulders/core winds up it the PULLS the left hip "around," and the left hip PULLS the left knee away from the target and toward the golf ball............all 3, shoulder, hips, and knee have worked around on an ARC.........at the top the elastic is STRETCHED to the limit..........AND, at some point you can't stretch the elastic anymore the backswing PIVOT is OVER.......and as the arms/club were simply REACTING to the pivot they stop at the same time as the end of the "STRETCH' (synched arms).............at this point you just "let the stretch go" and the left knee, left hip, and left shoulder "rotate" what feels like "up and left"/"up and around" which if performed properly will result in the butt of the club being PULLED "down" during the transition and once the left pivot point is reached the butt will be PULLED left towards your left hip socket.......done correctly the "leverage" is held until PHYSICS releases it and the face squares up on it's on.........NO manipulation of the face is necessary to square it......."it just happens"...........

BTW, the UP feeling is due to the spine axis being on a tilt and not vertical......a GREAT drill you can practice to get this feeling is the "baseball drill"......your is spine vertical, you wind up as I just explained, "at the top" the arms/shaft/clubface will all be on a plane that's perpendicular to your spine (you'll have to rotate the LEFT forearm to get the arms/shaft there)........."let it go" and make that club haul a** THROUGH an IMAGINARY ball that's about waist high or slightly above.........."whoooooooosh" GREAT way of feeling what I'm talking about......GREAT drill for developing "speed".......GREAT drill for feeling the clubhead working in a "circle".........as you get good at it with your spine vertical simply set up with a small amount of "tilt" and swing through a ball that's slightly lower than waist high........then a bit lower........then a bit lower..........the next thing you'll know you'll have a GREAT golf swing........ All of my kid's can knock hell from it with the ball tee'd up on a short iron shaft.......including my 10 year old..........DEAD SOLID! [/quote]

Great post again, SliceFixer.

If I may just add something - I've heard that Hogan even might have wanted to present the image of the tape this way but he was afraid what could happen with OTTers - much more golfers struggle with a too-outside path than viceversa. Sticking the tape to the hips was a 'safer' image for them...

Cheers

Cheers

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' post='866569' date='Jan 16 2008, 03:23 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='865566' date='Jan 15 2008, 08:11 PM']Tim, you do NOT do it with the arms........you do it with the LEFT SIDE of the body.........I'll paint ya' an image based on Mr. Hogan's "elastic" image............picture a big piece of elastic connected to your left shoulder, left hip, and left knee..........as the shoulders/core winds up it the PULLS the left hip "around," and the left hip PULLS the left knee away from the target and toward the golf ball............all 3, shoulder, hips, and knee have worked around on an ARC.........at the top the elastic is STRETCHED to the limit..........AND, at some point you can't stretch the elastic anymore the backswing PIVOT is OVER.......and as the arms/club were simply REACTING to the pivot they stop at the same time as the end of the "STRETCH' (synched arms).............at this point you just "let the stretch go" and the left knee, left hip, and left shoulder "rotate" what feels like "up and left"/"up and around" which if performed properly will result in the butt of the club being PULLED "down" during the transition and once the left pivot point is reached the butt will be PULLED left towards your left hip socket.......done correctly the "leverage" is held until PHYSICS releases it and the face squares up on it's on.........NO manipulation of the face is necessary to square it......."it just happens"...........

BTW, the UP feeling is due to the spine axis being on a tilt and not vertical......a GREAT drill you can practice to get this feeling is the "baseball drill"......your is spine vertical, you wind up as I just explained, "at the top" the arms/shaft/clubface will all be on a plane that's perpendicular to your spine (you'll have to rotate the LEFT forearm to get the arms/shaft there)........."let it go" and make that club haul a** THROUGH an IMAGINARY ball that's about waist high or slightly above.........."whoooooooosh" GREAT way of feeling what I'm talking about......GREAT drill for developing "speed".......GREAT drill for feeling the clubhead working in a "circle".........as you get good at it with your spine vertical simply set up with a small amount of "tilt" and swing through a ball that's slightly lower than waist high........then a bit lower........then a bit lower..........the next thing you'll know you'll have a GREAT golf swing........ All of my kid's can knock hell from it with the ball tee'd up on a short iron shaft.......including my 10 year old..........DEAD SOLID! [/quote]

Great post again, SliceFixer.

If I may just add something - I've heard that Hogan even might have wanted to present the image of the tape this way but he was afraid what could happen with OTTers - much more golfers struggle with a too-outside path than viceversa. Sticking the tape to the hips was a 'safer' image for them...

Cheers

Cheers
[/quote]

Dunno', but that makes perfect sense.........I just KNOW he did it with his ENTIRE LEFT SIDE and not his "hips"........and that his arms/club were just "along for the ride"........

[mizuno67]

well that spells the end of gary edwin"s right sided swing theory of ben hogan