Butt-trimming shaft effect on stiffness?

[xabia]

I recently picked up a tensei orange V3 60TX for my G400. Ridiculous low spin combo but the problem is it plays around 45.25" right now. I am a short dude and am not comfortable with that long of a shaft, so I would like to trim it down to play around 44.5". My only concern is that the shaft is already right on the cusp of being too stiff and I am afraid if I butt trim it will make the shaft feel even stiffer (based on a comment from my club pro the other day). So my question is, does butt-trimming a shaft affect its overall stiffness?

 

Thanks

[pre0024]

It will be slightly stiffer and swingweight quite a bit lighter (which could make it feel stiffer yet). With the counterbalanced shaft you’ll likely want to add some weight to the head.

 

I’d go ahead and get it to the playing length you like. The stiffer feeling will be minimal.

 

You’ll need sonewhere around 9 grams added to the head to maintain the Swingweight you have now.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

If you trim a shaft from the butt and maintain the swingweight the shaft will play softer. The strongest part of the shaft is the butt so if you reduce the butt section and add weight to the head the shaft will play slightly softer.

 

If I were you I would check the swingweight now, cut it down, and order the weight to return it to the current swingweight.

[pre0024]

Someone confirm this math ?

 

Butt trimming the shaft 3/4” will make the shaft around 4.5 sw points lighter so about 4.5 cpm stiffer. (All profiles being slightly different makes this inexact)

 

Add around 9 grams to the head will get the swingweight back to where it was previously and cpm back to where you started or maybe even softer based on sixtysevens reply here. Which it sounds like OP would welcome a hair softer.

 

Go for it.

 

 

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

Someone confirm this math

 

Butt trimming the shaft 3/4" will make the shaft around 4.5 sw points lighter so about 4.5 cpm stiffer. (All profiles being slightly different makes this inexact)

 

Add around 9 grams to the head will get the swingweight back to where it was previously and cpm back to where you started or maybe even softer based on sixtysevens reply here. Which it sounds like OP would welcome a hair softer.

 

Go for it.

 

That's what will happen. Tip trimming makes a shaft play stiffer because you're removing the weakest part of the shaft. Butt trimming does the opposite as long as you maintain the same swingweight.

[xabia]

awesome! Thank you guys I think I will go for it despite my trepidations around modifying this expensive of a shaft. It feels too long and too heavy actually right now, so maybe without modification this will be just right. If not I will add some lead tape to the head.

[Jagpilotohio]

If you trim a shaft from the butt and maintain the swingweight the shaft will play softer. The strongest part of the shaft is the butt so if you reduce the butt section and add weight to the head the shaft will play slightly softer.

 

If I were you I would check the swingweight now, cut it down, and order the weight to return it to the current swingweight.

 

Although some people like the shortened club at a slightly lighter SW. it’s ok to experiment with the weight.

 

I play my driver at 43.5” and D-2. It started at D-4. Just a bit heavy for my taste. I added back quite a lot of weight, I just didn’t go quite all the way back to the original weight.

[Howard_Jones]

Someone confirm this math ��

 

Butt trimming the shaft 3/4" will make the shaft around 4.5 sw points lighter so about 4.5 cpm stiffer. (All profiles being slightly different makes this inexact)

 

Add around 9 grams to the head will get the swingweight back to where it was previously and cpm back to where you started or maybe even softer based on sixtysevens reply here. Which it sounds like OP would welcome a hair softer.

 

Go for it.

 

 

No you got it a bit wrong, so lets take this slow....

Depending on the chart we use to judge flex we will see a slope of about 6 to 12 CPM pr inch (Rifle FCM is 8.6 pr inch)

That means a shaft thats 1 inch shorter than the other has to be 6 to 12 CPM stronger "to be the same flex"

 

Butt side is the strongest´part of the shaft, so when we reduce butt length, we go softer

The confusion on this is that if we cut off 1 inch and see that CPM goes up by 6, most will think we went 6 CPM stronger, but since that shaft is 1 inch shorter now, it must be at least 6 CPM stronger to be the same flex.

 

The moment we start adding weight back to the head, flex drops with 1 CPM for each SWP, so at 1 inch we lost 6 SWP, and if we add them back to the head, CPM now drops with 6 CPM so we ended up with a shaft about half a flex softer than we started from.

 

To keep the profile of the shaft as it is, we should tip trim 1/8" for each 2.5 grams we want to add back to the head. The way to figure out is NOT to pull and cut, but try off the club with added head weight to figure out how much we want to add when we go shorter.

 

To the OP

Take a piece of tape, and put on that part of the grip you plan to cut of (3/4")

Lower your hands below the tape and test the club.

The feeling you got now, is identical on both flex and head weight compared to a club thats actually is butt cut down to that play length. If you feel that the head is to light, add lead tape until it feels right and work as it should, and NEVER MIND what SW value that is, you was never fitted to play the standard value, so dont use it as target, but use this opportunity to find whats good for you on THIS club at this play length.

 

When the club head weight is dialed in, ask yourself if flex became softer than your liking or if "it was better before we added weight". if thats the case, take of the lead tape you added, put it on a grams scale and do the math. For each 2.5 grams you added, tip trim 1/8" to get feel of flex back to how it was.

 

This DIY driver tune up guide your trough the whole process, its very easy when you know what you should do (its all explained), and you dont need any special tools at all to make it on your own to figure out where to go with it all.

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...up-diy-fitting/

[speeder757]

Howard,

Does this also apply to steel shafts such as an X100? X100's seem/feel stiffer at a shorter length even at the same swing weight.

Conversely with Project X shafts the flex doesnt seem to change much if any at a shorter length.

I am referring to 1/4" or 1/2" short of standard iron playing length at a D2 swing weight.

 

Thanks

[Howard_Jones]

Howard,

Does this also apply to steel shafts such as an X100? X100's seem/feel stiffer at a shorter length even at the same swing weight.

Conversely with Project X shafts the flex doesnt seem to change much if any at a shorter length.

I am referring to 1/4" or 1/2" short of standard iron playing length at a D2 swing weight.

 

Thanks

 

Feel of flex is very personal, and since the shafts we can buy has different design and different flex slopes, some players will feel that shorter becomes stiffer, others dont, and il give you a example.

 

The natural slope on DG X100 Tapers is 10.8 pr inch, while its brother as Parallel has a slope of only 8 CPM pr inch.

If we started in the long end going against the short, the taper models becomes way stronger when we are into the short irons compared to the parallel version, but thats how they are designed to be

 

From 1 to 9 we have 9 clubs or 4.5 inches.

with a slope difference of 2.8 pr inch (10.8 vs 8.0) we get a PW iron thats 2.8 x 4.5 = 12.6 CPM stronger with tapers or more than 1 flex class stronger than its brother as parallel. Thats why DG dropped the PW shaft in tapers, it became stronger than players liked it to be for use in wedge, so the shortest and strongest DG taper is the #9 iron shaft, but that shaft is also 1 flex stronger than its brother as parallel.

 

Its simply the shaft models natural slope that makes the difference, and at some point it does not feel right or good anymore when the natural slope of that model is to steep. If we look at RIfle FCM the slope is 8.6 pr inch to make them feel "equal", but even at this slope some players will feel the short end become to stiff, and if it does not feel right, its wrong for you, no matter how "correct" it is compared to the shafts natural slope.

 

The shafts i play myself is FCM matched graphites with a slope of 7.0 CPM pr inch, so a player like me who comes from DG tapers, the short end of my new clubs is softer than im used to, but i love the way they feel now, so this is all personal.

[xabia]

Howard: Thank you for that detailed description its very helpful

[Howard_Jones]

Howard: Thank you for that detailed description its very helpful

 

i forgot to mention that the butt side of DG vs PX is a bit different.

When we go longer than standard on DG, we go softer. The profile is "butt soft", so when we go shorter it will feel stiffer.

PX is not quite like that, its quite "flat" no matter direction we go on play length.

A shaft like RIFLE FCM go way stronger when we go longer, and 1 inch above STD makes a set of 6.0 to play to 6.7, and the same the other way, shorter is softer.....

 

in this case we talk about how the butt section of the shaft is compared to the rest of it, and RIFLE has the stiffest butt vs mid and tip compared to the others, and DG is in the o posit end of RIFLE (DG has a very stiff mid and tip, but soft butt), and PX about the middle of them.

 

Now you should have the complete picture

The flex slope the shaft has, some models is so steep we dont want to use the shortest shafts

The butt section compared to mid and tip, a butt stiff shaft goes stronger when we go longer, while a butt soft shaft goes weaker, and when we go shorter the other way.

[Fred17815]

Hello, I have been trying to understand a diagram I encountered. It shows a longer butt end for a stiffer shaft firmness. (See pic) but string says trimming butt end stiffens shaft.

Could someone please explain this to me. Thank you.

 

[RyanBarathWRX]

Hopefully this helps:

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @RyanBarathWRX said:

> Hopefully this helps:

>

>

 

Thats more or less correct.....

 

He started from a 45" long club that measured 270 CPM, but forgot to show us the value at 44.00" BEFORE he added weight back to the head. That value will normally be 6 CPM higher from 6 SWP lower SW value, or 276 CPM in this case

 

The club did NOT become stronger, since a club thats 1 inch shorter SHOULD be 7.3 to 10.8 CPM stronger to be the same flex depending on shaft model. He also used the rule of thumb with 1 SWP = 2 grams, so he added back 12 grams to reset 6 SWP, and thats to much, and weight never ends up all the way out at the face, so he soften it more than it would do if he done it "correct".

 

For a driver at 44.00" there is 1.65 grams pr SWP, so to reset SW value 9.9 grams is the need, not 12 grams. If he did this "correct", the new return value would have been 272-273 CPM but we still went softer, since a 44.00" club should measure 277 to 281 to be the same flex as it was before shortening. Depending on shaft, we loose half to 3/4 of a flex from 1 inch shorter butt section, and FULL reset of SW value, not 1 full flex, but sometimes close.

 

Its NOT a good idea to reset SW value without a actual test who say thats what we should do. Very often the actual need for weight is LOWER than full reset, and that means we dont weaken the shaft as much as we would do when we reset the value we came from.

 

This chart is made for those cases we actually NEED a full reset of SW value and its correct for grams vs SWP on the actual play length.

If we look at a play length of 44.00" as in the video, and we came from 45.00" or 1 inch down, FULL reset and back to original SW value is 9.9 grams.

 

Butt cut ALWAYS soften the club since the butt is the strongest part of the shaft, but many get fooled when they look at the CPM numbers where in this case from the video started from 270 CPM and 1 inch shorter would return 276 and they think ahhh we went stronger, but when we look at the flex slope for the actual shaft model we need at least 7.3 CPM stronger on a club thats 1 inch shorter just to "stay in flex", so we always go softer when we butt cut, EVEN without reset of SW value.

 

 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

Im adding RIFLES FCM chart for flex so its visible what i was trying to explain, The chart is for using a 5.0" clamp.

He started from 45.00" and 270 CPM and thats FCM 6.5. 1 inch shorter or 44.00" and reset of SW using a bit to much weight, he ended at the same 270 CPM who is FCM 5.7

We count 10 CPM to be one full flex (5.0 to 6.0 as example), so if he used the right weight for reset, and a position closer to the heads COG (not on the face), return value would most likely be 272 or FCM 5.9

That means he lost 6-7 CPM by shortening 1.0" inch and full reset of SW value. If we look at the same chart, and NO reset of SW, CPM return would most likely be 276, and at 44.00, thats FCM 6.3 vs 6.5 we started from, so butt cut ALWAYS weaken the shaft.

 

PS! RIFLE DONT make wood shafts anymore, its just me that has extended the chart who is for the NEW IRON model > 2012 where the flex slope is 8.5 CPM pr inch.

 

[Howard_Jones]

@RyanBarathWRX

 

I understand now that its you on that video, nice tools by the way, but you will have to change the chart you are using for FCM values.

The one you are using is for a 2.5" clamp, thats why your values is way to high when you get 8.72 as stating point, and 7.86 at 44.00"

The difference from the 2.5" to the 5.0" clamp is 22 CPM. The chart ive posted here is the new chart from 2012.

 

The NEW FCM charts no longer use a #2 iron of 39.00" or a 43.00" wood as starting point, but a #6 iron of 37.50" (dark grey row in the chart), and then its 8.50 CPM both ways pr inch, or 4.25 CPM in a classic 4/8" set, vs the OLD chart who was 4.3 CPM between clubs or 8.6 CPM pr inch.

 

And one more detail, always make sure the butt of the shaft is flushed with the clamp, and that measuring is done with the same face angle, preferred is < Target line >. (you turned the club, who could change CPM by 3 CPM as average, so its important that we measure the shaft "on the same line" or "time")

[khalespace]

I have ordered the 8* Stealth Plus with the Hzrdus RDX Red shaft 5.5 stiffness -2". My driver swing speed is 98 mph. I have a few questions about shaft and swing weight.

 

1) If I order 2" shorter shaft with standard tip, I assume it is butt trim, is this correct?

2) I am between R and S. I assume that 5.5 stiffness will be stiffer if 2" is trimmed. Is this correct? Does it take the stiffness closer to 6.0?

3) Does cutting 2" makes the shaft a lower launch?

4) Will Taylormade make any weight adjustment to my driver?

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by khalespace

[Billfitz]

Tagging onto a zombie thread isn't the way to get replies. Start a new thread.

[Rbsiedsc]

1 hour ago, khalespace said:

I have ordered the 8* Stealth Plus with the Hzrdus RDX Red shaft 5.5 stiffness -2". My driver swing speed is 98 mph. I have a few questions about shaft and swing weight.

 

1) If I order 2" shorter shaft with standard tip, I assume it is butt trim, is this correct?

2) I am between R and S. I assume that 5.5 stiffness will be stiffer if 2" is trimmed. Is this correct? Does it take the stiffness closer to 6.0?

3) Does cutting 2" makes the shaft a lower launch?

4) Will Taylormade make any weight adjustment to my driver?

 

TM automatically tip trims 1” I believe. See @Howard_Jones above. Cutting from butt end makes it weaker. You would need tip trimming to gain back more flex. 

[kmac815]

If I soft stepx2 Project X 95 6.5 Flighted shafts, I am essentially making them stiffer by just butt trimming to standard lengths (7i @ 37”)? Shafting them straight in without any weights at the shaft tip 1) SW is significantly lighter and 2) shafts are playing stiffer? What would I need to do to bring the flex softer as intended by soft stepping? 10g weights or more?

[Howard_Jones]

14 minutes ago, kmac815 said:

If I soft stepx2 Project X 95 6.5 Flighted shafts, I am essentially making them stiffer by just butt trimming to standard lengths (7i @ 37”)? Shafting them straight in without any weights at the shaft tip 1) SW is significantly lighter and 2) shafts are playing stiffer? What would I need to do to bring the flex softer as intended by soft stepping? 10g weights or more?

Project X 95 series is DESCENDING wgt, so its ONLY tip trim changes from shaft to shaft.
To make them soft stepped once, we use #3 iron tip trim for the #4 iron and so on.
SS1 makes the TIP section 0.5 longer, and butt section 0.5 shorter (same play length)

If the shafts is installed, you will have to pull them and move all shaft "1 step", butt cutt them all 0.5" and add new grips. If you wants to keep playing the longest iron, you have to buy a extra shaft for that club,

[Joe Golfs]

On 8/14/2018 at 8:42 PM, Howard_Jones said:

 

 

No you got it a bit wrong, so lets take this slow....

Depending on the chart we use to judge flex we will see a slope of about 6 to 12 CPM pr inch (Rifle FCM is 8.6 pr inch)

That means a shaft thats 1 inch shorter than the other has to be 6 to 12 CPM stronger "to be the same flex"

 

Butt side is the strongest´part of the shaft, so when we reduce butt length, we go softer

The confusion on this is that if we cut off 1 inch and see that CPM goes up by 6, most will think we went 6 CPM stronger, but since that shaft is 1 inch shorter now, it must be at least 6 CPM stronger to be the same flex.

 

The moment we start adding weight back to the head, flex drops with 1 CPM for each SWP, so at 1 inch we lost 6 SWP, and if we add them back to the head, CPM now drops with 6 CPM so we ended up with a shaft about half a flex softer than we started from.

 

To keep the profile of the shaft as it is, we should tip trim 1/8" for each 2.5 grams we want to add back to the head. The way to figure out is NOT to pull and cut, but try off the club with added head weight to figure out how much we want to add when we go shorter.

 

To the OP

Take a piece of tape, and put on that part of the grip you plan to cut of (3/4")

Lower your hands below the tape and test the club.

The feeling you got now, is identical on both flex and head weight compared to a club thats actually is butt cut down to that play length. If you feel that the head is to light, add lead tape until it feels right and work as it should, and NEVER MIND what SW value that is, you was never fitted to play the standard value, so dont use it as target, but use this opportunity to find whats good for you on THIS club at this play length.

 

When the club head weight is dialed in, ask yourself if flex became softer than your liking or if "it was better before we added weight". if thats the case, take of the lead tape you added, put it on a grams scale and do the math. For each 2.5 grams you added, tip trim 1/8" to get feel of flex back to how it was.

 

This DIY driver tune up guide your trough the whole process, its very easy when you know what you should do (its all explained), and you dont need any special tools at all to make it on your own to figure out where to go with it all.

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...up-diy-fitting/

Do you still have that DIY fitting guide?  Link isn't working and I'd love to takea. look - Thank you!

[Howard_Jones]

 

6 minutes ago, Joe Golfs said:

Do you still have that DIY fitting guide?  Link isn't working and I'd love to takea. look - Thank you!

 

[pepperonipies]

On 8/14/2018 at 6:42 PM, Howard_Jones said:

 

 

No you got it a bit wrong, so lets take this slow....

Depending on the chart we use to judge flex we will see a slope of about 6 to 12 CPM pr inch (Rifle FCM is 8.6 pr inch)

That means a shaft thats 1 inch shorter than the other has to be 6 to 12 CPM stronger "to be the same flex"

 

Butt side is the strongest´part of the shaft, so when we reduce butt length, we go softer

The confusion on this is that if we cut off 1 inch and see that CPM goes up by 6, most will think we went 6 CPM stronger, but since that shaft is 1 inch shorter now, it must be at least 6 CPM stronger to be the same flex.

 

The moment we start adding weight back to the head, flex drops with 1 CPM for each SWP, so at 1 inch we lost 6 SWP, and if we add them back to the head, CPM now drops with 6 CPM so we ended up with a shaft about half a flex softer than we started from.

 

To keep the profile of the shaft as it is, we should tip trim 1/8" for each 2.5 grams we want to add back to the head. The way to figure out is NOT to pull and cut, but try off the club with added head weight to figure out how much we want to add when we go shorter.

 

To the OP

Take a piece of tape, and put on that part of the grip you plan to cut of (3/4")

Lower your hands below the tape and test the club.

The feeling you got now, is identical on both flex and head weight compared to a club thats actually is butt cut down to that play length. If you feel that the head is to light, add lead tape until it feels right and work as it should, and NEVER MIND what SW value that is, you was never fitted to play the standard value, so dont use it as target, but use this opportunity to find whats good for you on THIS club at this play length.

 

When the club head weight is dialed in, ask yourself if flex became softer than your liking or if "it was better before we added weight". if thats the case, take of the lead tape you added, put it on a grams scale and do the math. For each 2.5 grams you added, tip trim 1/8" to get feel of flex back to how it was.

 

This DIY driver tune up guide your trough the whole process, its very easy when you know what you should do (its all explained), and you dont need any special tools at all to make it on your own to figure out where to go with it all.

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...up-diy-fitting/

 

Regarding the comment about tip trimming 1/8" for each 2.5 grams added back to head for flex, are you saying then that you cut from butt to your desired playing length AND tip trim 1/8" for however many grams you add for needed head weight? Or do you take total desired cut length and split it between butt and tip trim? For example, if someone wants to cut 1/2", but needs to add 5 grams to head for desired SW (which equals 1/4" tip trim) do they trim butt 1/4" and tip 1/4" for a total cut of 1/2" OR 1/2" butt AND 1/4" tip which then becomes a total cut of 3/4"?

 

As a side note - if one wants to only trim 1/2" from butt it probably would be a minimal effect on flex that it shouldn't really matter for the most part?

Edited May 28 by pepperonipies

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, pepperonipies said:

 

Regarding the comment about tip trimming 1/8" for each 2.5 grams added back to head for flex, are you saying then that you cut from butt to your desired playing length AND tip trim 1/8" for however many grams you add for needed head weight? Or do you take total desired cut length and split it between butt and tip trim? For example, if someone wants to cut 1/2", but needs to add 5 grams to head for desired SW (which equals 1/4" tip trim) do they trim butt 1/4" and tip 1/4" for a total cut of 1/2" OR 1/2" butt AND 1/4" tip which then becomes a total cut of 3/4"?

 

As a side note - if one wants to only trim 1/2" from butt it probably would be a minimal effect on flex that it shouldn't really matter for the most part?

 

I think you might be over thinking this.  First, determine the tip trim amount based on total adjusted head weight (and how it effected the stiffness feel of the shaft).  Then second, butt trim what ever else is needed to get the new desired playing length.

 

What the butt trim might do is irrelevant because the desired head weight (and evaluating it's effect on the stiffness feel) would have been done at that new effective desired playing length (from choking up during the test).

Edited May 29 by Stuart_G

[Howard_Jones]

16 hours ago, pepperonipies said:

 

Regarding the comment about tip trimming 1/8" for each 2.5 grams added back to head for flex, are you saying then that you cut from butt to your desired playing length AND tip trim 1/8" for however many grams you add for needed head weight? Or do you take total desired cut length and split it between butt and tip trim? For example, if someone wants to cut 1/2", but needs to add 5 grams to head for desired SW (which equals 1/4" tip trim) do they trim butt 1/4" and tip 1/4" for a total cut of 1/2" OR 1/2" butt AND 1/4" tip which then becomes a total cut of 3/4"?

 

As a side note - if one wants to only trim 1/2" from butt it probably would be a minimal effect on flex that it shouldn't really matter for the most part?

 

 

WOW... 

We ALWAYS start with tip trim, then butt trim down to play lenght.

 

Any other way, and you will NOT be able to make it the play lenght thats target..... it should not be needed to explain that at all.

 

Play lenght is the most important club spec of them all....butt flex is "close to the bottom on page 7"....so we should never think about what happen to butt flex to get to play lenght, its a NON issue.

Edited May 29 by Howard_Jones