Country Club debate

[golfortennis]

I too am amazed at a 30 min drive being significant. I have a very good, top 20 course in the state in my community and I drive 20 min to play at a club I strongly prefer (and is top 5 in the state). I wouldn't even consider joining the other one. At all. 10 min added wouldn't do anything. The other local club I belong to is 35 min away and, again, I have zero hesitation about playing there.

 

Edit: Forgot to answer. I'd likely go A but then again I don't care about playing partial rounds and I don't have the caddie hate that people seem to here (which is even more surprising than the drive). I take one every now and again at my club just to support the program even though I'm perfectly capable of carrying my own clubs and do all of the time.

 

I don't think it's so much caddie hate as the fact it's an extra cost forced upon you. That would add up fast in a very significant way. You need to have Bobby Axelrod F-you money for that not to be a consideration.

I figured if he was considering joining that type of club then it isn’t a big consideration. Clubs like this don’t have people that play 200 rounds/year or at least they are very rare and thus it is not quite the same level of extra cost one might assume. To me it is a lot better than Scottsdale National which charges members a $100+ usage fee every time they play. That doesn’t get you a caddie. Just a cart and a snack or at least that is what it used to get you.

 

True. But then again, how many people on here (by choice) play the number of rounds per year you're referring to?

 

At least Parsons gave people the option of getting their initiation back, so I can respect that, but man, that SN model is brutal. I agree a mandatory caddie is better.

[Roody]

A note about the length of time for the drive:

 

At the beginning of this year I was into my third year of a membership at a semi-private club. That club is about a 15-18 minute drive for me. I also found a deal that I could join another club, fully private, under their "dual membership" pricing. I'm somewhat limited on when I could play, but the price was too good. So I added them on as a second club. The drive for that is about 25-30 minutes, and takes me right through the center of the city to get there.

 

After a few drives out to the fully private club, it didn't take long to start wearing on me. I really liked their course, loved the practice facility, but kinda dreaded the drive home afterwards.

 

Rewind to two months ago, I joined a third club because they had an incredible offer for new members. This one also fully private, but located 3 minutes from my house. I love how easy it is for me to pop over to play golf, use the range, even just to drop in for a few drinks on Men's night. I can't shed my other two memberships fast enough, LOL.

 

When I let the private club that's 25-30 minutes away know that I would not be returning next year, they asked why so they could improve on future experiences. I simply said "it wasn't anything you guys did wrong, I enjoyed the course, the staff, and the other members. It's simply location. I prefer a 3 minute drive to a 30 minute drive."

[farmer]

I looked up Kinloch,looks amazing, but their website leads me in the "old chap" direction. SN charges their members, dues paying members, a hundred a pop to play?!! That is the definition of eff you money at work.

[kgeisler13]

I can relate to this situation because I do do not always enjoy the club I am at but my company pays for it so I try not to complain. I would probably choose Club B unless you really want extra amenities for your wife and kids.

[az2au]

I looked up Kinloch,looks amazing, but their website leads me in the "old chap" direction. SN charges their members, dues paying members, a hundred a pop to play?!! That is the definition of eff you money at work.

Yep and if you don’t bring guests at $200/round you’re restricted to 30 rounds/year. It is with intent as Parsons wants mostly national members.

[kiddoc]

I looked up Kinloch,looks amazing, but their website leads me in the "old chap" direction. SN charges their members, dues paying members, a hundred a pop to play?!! That is the definition of eff you money at work.

Yep and if you dont bring guests at $200/round youre restricted to 30 rounds/year. It is with intent as Parsons wants mostly national members.

 

 

And made members prepay the entire year dues...one check

 

[Loki]

I looked up Kinloch,looks amazing, but their website leads me in the "old chap" direction. SN charges their members, dues paying members, a hundred a pop to play?!! That is the definition of eff you money at work.

Yep and if you don’t bring guests at $200/round you’re restricted to 30 rounds/year. It is with intent as Parsons wants mostly national members.

 

 

And made members prepay the entire year dues...one check

 

It's his business, he can run it however he wants, as long as he doesn't infringe on the rights of others...and you don't have the rights until you write the check.

[Roadking2003]

- I still work, and will need to work for at least the next 10 years, and I have a wife and school-aged children. But, retirement is in sight, and to some degree I am looking to "get in" on a good deal such that when I retire, I will just love the club I am in and will have long since overcome any high initiation fees, etc.

 

If retirement is in sight and the kids will be gone by then, pick the club you really want and then move there in ten years. Living very close to the club is important to me.

 

16 years ago we selected our club. Then we built our house very close. One of our best decisions ever.

[golfdummy]

If it's between Kinloch and any others in the area... It's a no brainier for me. I'm joining Kinloch. The only clubs that might be a consideration would be all the way up in the D.C. area.

[jerebear21]

35 minutes? Might as well be a national member !

[burnsniper]

If it's between Kinloch and any others in the area... It's a no brainier for me. I'm joining Kinloch. The only clubs that might be a consideration would be all the way up in the D.C. area.

 

Lots of good clubs/courses in central VA: CCV, Kinloch, Foundary, Farmington, Spring Creek, and Hemitage to name a few. These plus RTJ and a couple in SWVa represent the cream of the crop in VA.

[jellynorth]

Not really about your situation specifically, but the half hour drive will get to be a chore. Evening nine holes, easy, quick access to a range will all go away because of the drive.

This really is true.

 

The club I belong to now can and often does drive me absolutely nuts (full of stubborn, insular townies who view it as their own little fiefdom, ridiculously obtuse priorities, and maintenance practices - or lack thereof - that baffle). BUT, it's very close to home (7-ish minutes), and it's the cheapest within an hour's drive. I come and go as I please, practicing and playing on any whim. Having that sort of access is very nice and I believe this trumps pretty much everything else. It does help that I have several great, open-to-the-public courses that are just as close. If I ever want a change of scenery, I'm happy to pay the green/cart fees for it. The only thing I really miss is having a regular game with guys who are on my level or better. It's just not going to happen at my club. Trade offs. But it hasn't yet been important enough to make me look elsewhere. It's just more important to have the easy access and short, short drive.

 

So I'd look at what negatives there are - and what you'd really miss. The grass isn't always greener.

[Shilgy]

I looked up Kinloch,looks amazing, but their website leads me in the "old chap" direction. SN charges their members, dues paying members, a hundred a pop to play?!! That is the definition of eff you money at work.

Yep and if you don’t bring guests at $200/round you’re restricted to 30 rounds/year. It is with intent as Parsons wants mostly national members.

It seems he wants a golf course, I refuse to call it a club, where every four some is one member and three guests. Not my idea of a club but to each his own.

[farmer]

After doing some research, it seems Bob Parsons wants ANGC Southwest. It was a nice gesture to buy out the existing members rather than pricing them out.

[scottishpedro]

It’s a tough choice. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, it really is different cost wise here is scotland, the courses are cheap to join (albeit the country club isn’t really a thing here) but the pros and cons otherwise are the same.

 

I am a member of 2 places. The first I joined is a major championship venue, you need to live in the same county to be able to join, so that was (to me anyway, probably not my wife!) a factor in buying our house where we did. It’s a 30 minute drive, but the golf is so good that it feels special every time I go. The other place is a 20 minute drive, but I chose to join there because there are 3 courses and they are all top quality, the main course being one of the best inland courses in the country.

 

If I was comparing the 2 overall pacakages, membership 1 is all about the golf, I go down there less but every time I go I feel like I’m playing a top, top course. Membership 2 is a better overall package. I didn’t know anyone there when I joined (I joined because of the quality of courses) but I have made some good friends. Maybe I am naive but I think no matter where you join, there will be some people like you that over time you will become friendly with.

 

The drive is a factor; I could have picked about 10 other clubs that are significantly closer to home, but if I had the choice of a 5-10 minute drive to play somewhere I didn’t really want to, or a 20-30 minute drive to play somewhere that I genuinley looked forward to playing every time, it’s an easy choice for me. Sure I don’t go and play 6 holes or hit a bucket of balls 5 times a week, but the time I do spent there is totally worth it.

 

Good luck whatever you choose to do

 

Pedro

[Schley]

Two things I would ask:

 

1. What is in initiation at each place? This would tip the scales quickly perhaps.

 

2. Would you ever consider moving closer to club A?

[Bonneville85308]

I looked up Kinloch,looks amazing, but their website leads me in the "old chap" direction. SN charges their members, dues paying members, a hundred a pop to play?!! That is the definition of eff you money at work.

Yep and if you don't bring guests at $200/round you're restricted to 30 rounds/year. It is with intent as Parsons wants mostly national members.

It seems he wants a golf course, I refuse to call it a club, where every four some is one member and three guests. Not my idea of a club but to each his own.

 

If anything, its basically a "money club" and not a "golf club" IMO. He doesn't want avid golfers, he just wants rich guys who may occasionally play golf for business or schmoozing purposes. If he owns it, he has every right to do that, though.

[LeftDaddy]

I haven’t responded in a while...just got around to reading the next round of responses. I appreciate all of the thoughts again. Thanks!

 

I guess moving is technically an option, but the next time I plan to move is when I head further south for retirement.

 

I currently work from my home, so no options are “on the way” to work, etc.

 

Initiation fee for A is a bit steep. B and C aren’t cheap either, but aren’t enough to make it a “lifetime “ type choice if that makes sense (ie if I join A, I’m there for life).

 

I enjoy my current golf course. I never get tired of playing it. It is a really good layout that provides a good challenge, etc. But the other clubs are great layouts too.

 

The wife is coming around. She always wants me to be happy. She’s good about making sure we are spending our money wisely, and frankly there is very little “wise” about the spending of this amount of $ on a new club membership. Anyway, she’s ok with whatever I choose.

 

Thanks everyone!

[2bGood]

Club membership comes down to the people for me. If the club had people I enjoy spending time with, I can put up with lots of less then ideal issues.

[golfortennis]

It’s a tough choice. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, it really is different cost wise here is scotland, the courses are cheap to join (albeit the country club isn’t really a thing here) but the pros and cons otherwise are the same.

 

I am a member of 2 places. The first I joined is a major championship venue, you need to live in the same county to be able to join, so that was (to me anyway, probably not my wife!) a factor in buying our house where we did. It’s a 30 minute drive, but the golf is so good that it feels special every time I go. The other place is a 20 minute drive, but I chose to join there because there are 3 courses and they are all top quality, the main course being one of the best inland courses in the country.

 

If I was comparing the 2 overall pacakages, membership 1 is all about the golf, I go down there less but every time I go I feel like I’m playing a top, top course. Membership 2 is a better overall package. I didn’t know anyone there when I joined (I joined because of the quality of courses) but I have made some good friends. Maybe I am naive but I think no matter where you join, there will be some people like you that over time you will become friendly with.

 

The drive is a factor; I could have picked about 10 other clubs that are significantly closer to home, but if I had the choice of a 5-10 minute drive to play somewhere I didn’t really want to, or a 20-30 minute drive to play somewhere that I genuinley looked forward to playing every time, it’s an easy choice for me. Sure I don’t go and play 6 holes or hit a bucket of balls 5 times a week, but the time I do spent there is totally worth it.

 

Good luck whatever you choose to do

 

Pedro

 

See, now if you're in the US, you're daddy warbucks to be able to do that. I'm going to guess that your first club(major championship club) allows tourist play for a pretty healthy amount of pounds? Which in turn keeps it cheaper for the local members. Unless you're talking Muirfield, of course.

 

None of that stuff over this side of the pond. Which requires the members to pay the freight. But you also don't have how many chops coming in to knock something off their bucket list, with no regard for the course.

 

You're right about the pros and cons being mostly the same. Only thing is money is a much bigger consideration here as well.

[Shades234]

I've read the first page thread and feel that I can add my input here. You're in a very similar situation to where I was about 5 months ago.

 

Club A had a world class club house, "exclusive" membership, good membership + good golf facilities. But 30 mins minimum from where I live/want to live.

 

I ended up going with the club that mostly resembles option B. I have a 10-15 min drive from where I live. 30 mins from the office in the afternoon. No fancy amenities like pools or courts, but a great golf facilities. Interesting course that challenges me every time I play. Good locker room + mens grill. Also a lot of younger junior exec members that are pretty good sticks.

 

There was a "C" in the running that had all sorts of big amenities like brand new pools and courts and a huge clubhouse, but that stuff isn't important to me and the course being consistently crowded + some lame guest policy turned me off even though it was a bit cheaper.

 

Anyway, you have to make this decision for you since it seems that your family probably won't be using the club much unless your kids pick up the game. I wouldn't want to use a caddy every time I play unless this was just a place that I go on vacation once a month for a weekend. I play too often for that and try to get a quick 9 in whenever I can. I also would hate a place that's crowded or hard to get a tee time at. I'd also hate to feel nickel and dimed, but I'd probably put up with it if everything else was good.

 

I'd probably say the biggest factors should be:

1. The course. If you love the course, you won't mind if it takes you a bit longer to drive there.

2. The members. Are you joining a group of guys that you will have a good time with regularly? How's the vibe?

3. Convenience. Travel time + ability to get tee times. Sort of goes with #1, but if the course is too far, it's too far. Also is this place a show and go style place or will you have to call ahead and make sure the place isn't packed on the regular?

[MNGolfer307]

I haven't responded in a while...just got around to reading the next round of responses. I appreciate all of the thoughts again. Thanks!

 

I guess moving is technically an option, but the next time I plan to move is when I head further south for retirement.

 

I currently work from my home, so no options are "on the way" to work, etc.

 

Initiation fee for A is a bit steep. B and C aren't cheap either, but aren't enough to make it a "lifetime " type choice if that makes sense (ie if I join A, I'm there for life).

 

I enjoy my current golf course. I never get tired of playing it. It is a really good layout that provides a good challenge, etc. But the other clubs are great layouts too.

 

The wife is coming around. She always wants me to be happy. She's good about making sure we are spending our money wisely, and frankly there is very little "wise" about the spending of this amount of $ on a new club membership. Anyway, she's ok with whatever I choose.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

You mentioned that once retirement hits (approx 10 years or less based on earlier post) your plan is to head south. If option A is a huge upfront cost that makes it a "lifetime" deal then you may have answered your own question. It may not be worth it for the 10 years.

 

Also it sounds like you are doing fine in the financial dept. However if your current job situation involves networking or could be influenced by the membership at a higher end course, then that could come into play. An opportunity to make a "deal" that would pay for your membership would be a nice bonus.

[Dr. Frankenputts]

If it's between Kinloch and any others in the area... It's a no brainier for me. I'm joining Kinloch. The only clubs that might be a consideration would be all the way up in the D.C. area.

 

Issue I have heard with Kinloch though is it has become more of a national membership/ out of town/ corporate membership type club and that they were giving tee time preference to out of town and corporate members as they were the ones staying in the cabins and spending money at the club. Making it harder to just go out and play whenever you wanted. So know a lot of local guys that have dropped

[ChipDriver]

Mods, if this belongs in the "clubs" thread, please move, but felt like it could fit / I would get more responses on GGT.

 

I have a question for everyone who has an opinion on this out there. I'll try to keep it brief, but some context is helpful. The basic gist of my question is: what would you do about your golf club membership in my situation?

 

I am currently a member at what I consider to be the best golf club value in town. Nice courses, OK club atmosphere (but not great), and really inexpensive in the grand scheme of things. Very close to my house (7 minute drive). But it annoys me in a handful of ways, enough that I am considering a switch. Food is only just OK. Don't love the "culture".

 

Also, many higher-end clubs in the area have suffered in recent years, such that joining fees at these places are at all-time lows. I'm looking at 3 other clubs.

 

Club A is ultra, ultra supreme...super high-end, literally almost as good as it gets in the country in terms of "niceties". I like the course. The clubhouse is to die for. The cons are that it is about half-hour drive from my house, it can feel a bit stuffy, and it is a "golf-only" club...no pools, tennis, etc for the wife and kids (although we belong to a swim and racquet club as well that provides that stuff). And it ain't cheap (although it is cheaper than it has ever been). And caddies are required for almost every round.

 

Club B is a very high-end, golf-only club as well. A little cheaper upfront than club A, but annual costs would be abut the same. Still about half-hour away. Kind of a slightly cheaper, slightly less posh version of Club A. But the culture / atmosphere isn't as "stuffy"...in fact, pretty relaxed place overall. Caddies are available but not required. No pool or tennis, etc.

 

Club C is a tier or two up from my current country club...nicer, more amenities, but a good bit more expensive. It has the pools, tennis, etc etc. Could be a great family atmosphere type of place. It is 20 minutes from my house. But they seem to nickel and dime you...lots of little tacky add-on fees. And I'm not sure about the culture, and seems pretty crowded.

 

Anyway, I would like to switch, and as for money, I'll say it like this...I can handle any of the options pretty easily, although my nature is to be a value-conscious spender.

 

Have you all found the extra "niceties" to be worth it (those that went that route)? Or do you find that you pay way too much for what you really get? I'm leaning towards staying where I am (warts and all) only because none of the options available to me are perfect. I would appreciate people's thoughts.

 

Where will you enjoy it the most? It sounds like Club A is Kinloch - and you don't seem to like that type of club - so don't join. Personally I'd go with any place that 1) feels like you're on a nice vacation; and 2) makes you happy. But if the answer is "none of the above" then that's the answer...don't join any of them. For me 30 mins is a non-starter...I don't care how cheap it is. If Kinloch is in the mix - I will tell you that it will be a "nice on the resume" kind of a course - but in general, you're going to play either alone, or with a very small group of guys regularly. I'm ok with that - but many people aren't. For me - I take a couple of business people out there 3-4 times a year to a great course like Kinloch - win even a small deal with one of them - and all of my golf is paid for. So in that regard it's worth it. But if I had to pay those fees "every day" without it being for business - it changes the dynamic. At least for me. Can I afford it - sure. But do I enjoy it - after a while - no. It gets old, fast. But I'm cheap about certain things. :)

 

Your worries about people being snooty is your imagination. EVERY club has snobs and EVERY club has nice guys. I belong to several clubs in DC - and at the end of the day for me - it's about how much fun I have, and whether I'm happy there.

 

And for me - it really gets down to whether you're going to enjoy schlepping out there 30 mins each way to "play golf". IMO no course is worth doing that regularly...not even Kinloch.

[Clambake]

Pick the club where you enjoy the people the most. A 3 hour round with a group of Word not allowedholes on a fantastic course will feel like a miserable eternity, and a 5 hour round with great mates on a goat track can feel like the best day ever. If you don't identify and fit in with the people, the course, facility, and amenities are really irrelevant.

[jwellefson1]

Part of me says you should get more information if at all possible, the other part says just join Kinloch and call it a day. Either way there are no wrong answers here which is definitely a positive.

[Schley]

I don't buy the argument that some clubs have mostly a..holes. There are good and bad at all places and some personalities attract more than others. Thus you won't know much about the culture unless you know several members and I put a lot of stock in those opinions as well as playing the place as a guest. I do NOT like the caddie being mandatory, as I do like to help young people, but don't need an escort if i'm in a cart with other members. That is almost a tax on each round IMO. Some clubs the forecaddie is $200 for a foursome all in, while others are $80 bucks. I'm not cheap but I don't like that aspect for it doesn't present much value to me. I wouldn't change clubs unless it represented a significant upgrade for me and it sounds like club A would be. However the initiation is a big consideration IMO.

 

let us know what happens.

[Dr. Frankenputts]

I don't buy the argument that some clubs have mostly a..holes. There are good and bad at all places and some personalities attract more than others. Thus you won't know much about the culture unless you know several members and I put a lot of stock in those opinions as well as playing the place as a guest. I do NOT like the caddie being mandatory, as I do like to help young people, but don't need an escort if i'm in a cart with other members. That is almost a tax on each round IMO. Some clubs the forecaddie is $200 for a foursome all in, while others are $80 bucks. I'm not cheap but I don't like that aspect for it doesn't present much value to me. I wouldn't change clubs unless it represented a significant upgrade for me and it sounds like club A would be. However the initiation is a big consideration IMO.

 

let us know what happens.

 

 

If it is Kinloch that he is talking about like everyone thinks. I don't know if caddies are actually required or if they are just strongly urged because I have played the course on several occasions with no caddie and even with a cart and I was a guest. Now that was probably 5 years ago. The 3 rounds I played there this year were all with a caddie.

[farmer]

A 30 min. drive is not huge, but if you want to get there early enough to warm up, get signed in, do all the routine, it's going to be close to an hour from leaving home to the first tee. Play, visit a little, maybe a beverage, and it's an hour back into the garage. 4 hr round, and it's 6 hours out the door and back. 5 hours if all you do is race to the course, play and race home. My situation is far different than being in an urban area, but that scenario is a killer for me.

[scottishpedro]

It’s a tough choice. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, it really is different cost wise here is scotland, the courses are cheap to join (albeit the country club isn’t really a thing here) but the pros and cons otherwise are the same.

 

I am a member of 2 places. The first I joined is a major championship venue, you need to live in the same county to be able to join, so that was (to me anyway, probably not my wife!) a factor in buying our house where we did. It’s a 30 minute drive, but the golf is so good that it feels special every time I go. The other place is a 20 minute drive, but I chose to join there because there are 3 courses and they are all top quality, the main course being one of the best inland courses in the country.

 

If I was comparing the 2 overall pacakages, membership 1 is all about the golf, I go down there less but every time I go I feel like I’m playing a top, top course. Membership 2 is a better overall package. I didn’t know anyone there when I joined (I joined because of the quality of courses) but I have made some good friends. Maybe I am naive but I think no matter where you join, there will be some people like you that over time you will become friendly with.

 

The drive is a factor; I could have picked about 10 other clubs that are significantly closer to home, but if I had the choice of a 5-10 minute drive to play somewhere I didn’t really want to, or a 20-30 minute drive to play somewhere that I genuinley looked forward to playing every time, it’s an easy choice for me. Sure I don’t go and play 6 holes or hit a bucket of balls 5 times a week, but the time I do spent there is totally worth it.

 

Good luck whatever you choose to do

 

Pedro

 

See, now if you're in the US, you're daddy warbucks to be able to do that. I'm going to guess that your first club(major championship club) allows tourist play for a pretty healthy amount of pounds? Which in turn keeps it cheaper for the local members. Unless you're talking Muirfield, of course.

 

None of that stuff over this side of the pond. Which requires the members to pay the freight. But you also don't have how many chops coming in to knock something off their bucket list, with no regard for the course.

 

You're right about the pros and cons being mostly the same. Only thing is money is a much bigger consideration here as well.

 

Yes definitely the pricing structures are completely different between here and the US, and our membership fees are subsidised by visitors, as is the case with 90%+ of the golf facilities in the UK (some more than others). I really just meant I would personally rather travel a bit further to play a course I loved playing than play somewhere close by that was poor but just happened to be close by.