Hazard, Where to drop, option 1 or 2?

[Deuce78]

Purple line is ball line, ball was not seen after going into tree. No evidence of any change in ball flight, or impact sound. Ball was hit with driver, with a pull hook, so it was hot. Logic says that it would have continued traveling into area #2, but golf rules may not allow. Is there a decision out there that covers this?

[LeoLeo99]

Why do you think it's not a lost ball?

[Deuce78]

The red line on entire left side. Saw it cross the red line at option 1. Logic says it's in the hazard at 2, and ball was not found in grass and would have easily been found if it was in the grass. Which is why o would say no lost ball option. But we can add that as option 3...for any that feel it appropriate.

[LeoLeo99]

If you know with virtual certainty that the ball crossed at 2, then you can drop there. But tough to know for sure where exactly the ball went if you didn't see it go past the tree.

[judahaderhold]

Why do you think it's not a lost ball?

If they walk up there and can't find it outside the hazard, then they're 'reasonably certain' that it's in the hazard and they can play it as such. If this wasn't part of the rules and you had to be 'absolutely certain' that it's in the hazard, then the only way to take a hazard penalty instead of a lost ball, would be to see the ball in the hazard, which would be nearly impossible at times, like if there's water.

[rogolf]

Find me the ball at 2 and I'll let you drop there. Otherwise it's a drop using reference point 1. My logic? Can't let you gain an undue distance advantage without confirmation that the ball crossed at 2.

[Deuce78]

Find me the ball at 2 and I'll let you drop there. Otherwise it's a drop using reference point 1. My logic? Can't let you gain an undue distance advantage without confirmation that the ball crossed at 2.

I like this. Makes sense and obviously would prove location...

[SNIPERBBB]

Your group likes hitting balls into trees near hazards dont they?

[ruca]

I disagree

Not hearing anything doesn't mean it can't be in the tree (part of which appears to be not in hazard) or have deflected back into play some distance away.

Just this weekend I pulled a tee shot into a tree and fortunately another group had seen it ricochet 50 yrs sideways near another green. I would never have dreamed of looking there.

I think theres much greater than 5% chance it's in tree or in play somewhere, ie lost ball if you don't find it.

[rogolf]

The interesting part is that these decisions regarding lost or known or virtually certain will, in 2019 (five minutes now), need to be concluded within three minutes of beginning to search for the ball according to the interpretations for the 2019 Rules. So no messing around, get on with it. Information gained after three minutes of beginning to search for the ball are, in nearly all cases, irrelevant.

[Deuce78]

Ball was not found in hazard, few balls ever would be...so consensus is location #1?. Thanks.

[Newby]

I the lateral only a stream/ditch or does it extend some distance (eg a lake)?

Did you search 50 yards to the right or left?

How long is the grass between #1 and #2?

[TheCityGame]

Ball was not found in hazard, few balls ever would be...so consensus is location #1?. Thanks.

Lost ball.

 

That ball could be stuck in a tree. It could be in the long grass anywhere between points 1 and 2. It could have ricchochet'ed to the other side of the fairway.

 

The following scenario happens so often. .

 

1) guy hits ball at tree.

2) no one hears a thing. No one sees it come down.

3) Guy finds a ball on the other side of the fairway, "are you playing a titlieist 1 with a red dot?" "Yup, that's it."

 

When balls go into trees, all bets are off.

[Deuce78]

I the lateral only a stream/ditch or does it extend some distance (eg a lake)?

Did you search 50 yards to the right or left?

How long is the grass between #1 and #2?

Hazard is tall grass and trees, then lake further in.

 

Did not search right, it was a small tree, not a lot of wood in it,. So only searched likely areas plus some. It entered a hazard and hit a small tree area, not a direct hit, I mean nothing that could send it flying causing a significant change of direction.

 

The grass between 1 and 2 is short. Easily seen.

 

Honestly it was a question of can you drop at 2 without seeing the ball beyond point 1, being it was obstructed by the tree...and I think the answer is no, you have to drop at 1, unless the ball is found or seen at 2...

[Deuce78]

Ball was not found in hazard, few balls ever would be...so consensus is location #1?. Thanks.

Lost ball.

 

That ball could be stuck in a tree. It could be in the long grass anywhere between points 1 and 2. It could have ricchochet'ed to the other side of the fairway.

 

The following scenario happens so often. .

 

1) guy hits ball at tree.

2) no one hears a thing. No one sees it come down.

3) Guy finds a ball on the other side of the fairway, "are you playing a titlieist 1 with a red dot?" "Yup, that's it."

 

When balls go into trees, all bets are off.

I hear you, in this case, the tree is in the hazard. Thanks.

[Shilgy]

Ball was not found in hazard, few balls ever would be...so consensus is location #1?. Thanks.

Lost ball.

 

That ball could be stuck in a tree. It could be in the long grass anywhere between points 1 and 2. It could have ricchochet'ed to the other side of the fairway.

 

The following scenario happens so often. .

 

1) guy hits ball at tree.

2) no one hears a thing. No one sees it come down.

3) Guy finds a ball on the other side of the fairway, "are you playing a titlieist 1 with a red dot?" "Yup, that's it."

 

When balls go into trees, all bets are off.

I hear you, in this case, the tree is in the hazard. Thanks.

Does not matter-the ball can bounce off the tree. Lost ball imo. No way you have KVC it is in the hazard at all.

[Deuce78]

So you are option 3... how can I put a poll up? I understand that it could, but in my 32 years of playing golf that rarely has ever happened to me. I usually find the ball, or see it continue on, or see it go in a hazard etc. So it's really difficult in my mind when it doesnt do that 95 times out of 100, to just assume a ball is now lost when experience has not been the case in past. Plus It just was not that kind of tree that was capable of producing a 70 yard ricochet...

 

At the time of the shot, it was agreed it was in hazard, just that it could have and likely did continue on to point 2. However my vote is option 1.

 

Are we in agreement golf rule gurus?

[judahaderhold]

Ball was not found in hazard, few balls ever would be...so consensus is location #1?. Thanks.

Lost ball.

 

That ball could be stuck in a tree. It could be in the long grass anywhere between points 1 and 2. It could have ricchochet'ed to the other side of the fairway.

 

The following scenario happens so often. .

 

1) guy hits ball at tree.

2) no one hears a thing. No one sees it come down.

3) Guy finds a ball on the other side of the fairway, "are you playing a titlieist 1 with a red dot?" "Yup, that's it."

 

When balls go into trees, all bets are off.

I hear you, in this case, the tree is in the hazard. Thanks.

Does not matter-the ball can bounce off the tree. Lost ball imo. No way you have KVC it is in the hazard at all.

The ball can bounce off the tree, but they didn't see it bounce off the tree, so if say if it did bounce off the tree, there's a very good chance it bounced forward (the only area they wouldn't be able to see it) which would be into the hazard. And since they looked around outside of the hazard and couldn't find it, it most likely either did bounce of the tree or stay in the tree. If it's in the tree- that's hazard, and if it bounced off I think there's a very high chance it bounced forward into the hazard. To each his own interpretation, but I'd say #1 is the correct spot to play from.

[Newby]

The grass between 1 and 2 is short. .

 

How short? Less than 1.5"?

[jlbos83]

Not being there to actually see it, it feels like "1". But without eyes on the ground, so to speak, we are all just guessing.

[Deuce78]

The grass between 1 and 2 is short. .

 

How short? Less than 1.5"?

Yeah by grip ends have rulers on them. J/k Not sure...but short, there was a 1st cut, but not long at all and thin as it did not get sunlight by the trees.

[Newby]

I suggest that many referees would say it would be very possible to not see a ball in grass longer than 1.5"

[Deuce78]

Agreed, it also depends how lush or sparse the grass is as well. I know with rough there are courses where you see you landing spot and the ball bounce, and cannot find it, others the rough is thin and can see balls from 100 yards. This course I'd say could easily see a ball from 50 yards in the rough.

 

I get the lost ball aspect, but if at the time players agree the ball was in the hazard, is a lost ball really on the table here? The main question was when ball path and resting place become obstructed, and ball not found, where would be the appropriate place to drop?

[judahaderhold]

how can I put a poll up?

You should be able to edit your post and hit "manage topic poll". I'd be interested to see what the poll results would show if you could get it to work.

[TheCityGame]

It doesn't matter if you put a post up.

 

I could go with lost ball, drop 1 or drop 2 depending entirely on what the actual place and shot look like.

 

Op should really familiarize himself with the idea of "known or virtually certain".

 

Things like "what everyone in the group agrees on" are not in the rule book, so it doesn't matter if the results of a poll are l000 to 0. If you're not "kvc" the ball is in the hazard at 1 or 2, that's a bad drop.

[judahaderhold]

It doesn't matter if you put a post up.

 

I could go with lost ball, drop 1 or drop 2 depending entirely on what the actual place and shot look like.

 

Op should really familiarize himself with the idea of "known or virtually certain".

 

Things like "what everyone in the group agrees on" are not in the rule book, so it doesn't matter if the results of a poll are l000 to 0. If you're not "kvc" the ball is in the hazard at 1 or 2, that's a bad drop.

I know the poll results don't make one way or the other right, I'd just be intrigued to see what people vote.

[Augster]

I’m with most everyone else. Lost ball.

 

If you hit it directly at a tree, then don’t see it anymore, and it COULD be lost outside the hazard, it’s lost. You never saw it enter and stay in the hazard, and it wasn’t found in the hazard. (Not known)

 

And because of the tree and loss of vision of the ball flight, you can’t be virtually certain it’s in the hazard. (Not VC).

 

The playing 32 years is irrelevant as is the voting within the group. I know guys that have played forever that get this ruling “wrong” all day every day they’ve ever played. They go ballistic if you call them on their haphazard rules usage.

 

Did anyone see it go into the hazard and stay in the hazard? NO. Could it have ended up ANYWHERE outside the hazard? YES.

 

Lost ball.

[Deuce78]

Im with most everyone else. Lost ball.

 

If you hit it directly at a tree, then dont see it anymore, and it COULD be lost outside the hazard, its lost. You never saw it enter and stay in the hazard, and it wasnt found in the hazard. (Not known)

 

And because of the tree and loss of vision of the ball flight, you cant be virtually certain its in the hazard. (Not VC).

 

The playing 32 years is irrelevant as is the voting within the group. I know guys that have played forever that get this ruling wrong all day every day theyve ever played. They go ballistic if you call them on their haphazard rules usage.

 

Did anyone see it go into the hazard and stay in the hazard? NO. Could it have ended up ANYWHERE outside the hazard? YES.

 

Lost ball.

I have a real hard time with calling a lost ball here, when a ball has broke the plane of a hazard and hit into a tree, and not found, when finding any ball in the hazard would be difficult. I'm not gonna traunce all over the golf hole looking for a ball in places where there is zero indication of a ball going. Perhaps if we had heard a knock of wood, and didn't see a ball, then I can see that, but when it's a quiet impact, the baseball has not hit the bat right? Anyway there has got to be some written clarification on the matter right?

 

I imagine two players calling in a rules official, who didn't see the shot, but I guess he could see the hole which helps., but the guy still has to make a call. I still say #1, but obviously I want the correct ruling for future play. Thanks.

[Deuce78]

how can I put a poll up?

You should be able to edit your post and hit "manage topic poll". I'd be interested to see what the poll results would show if you could get it to work.

Tried on the mobile app, but no option for that, I will have to try a computer.

[Imp]

I’m with most everyone else. Lost ball.

 

If you hit it directly at a tree, then don’t see it anymore, and it COULD be lost outside the hazard, it’s lost. You never saw it enter and stay in the hazard, and it wasn’t found in the hazard. (Not known)

 

And because of the tree and loss of vision of the ball flight, you can’t be virtually certain it’s in the hazard. (Not VC).

 

The playing 32 years is irrelevant as is the voting within the group. I know guys that have played forever that get this ruling “wrong” all day every day they’ve ever played. They go ballistic if you call them on their haphazard rules usage.

 

Did anyone see it go into the hazard and stay in the hazard? NO. Could it have ended up ANYWHERE outside the hazard? YES.

 

Lost ball.

I have a real hard time with calling a lost ball here, when a ball has broke the plane of a hazard and hit into a tree, and not found, when finding any ball in the hazard would be difficult. I'm not gonna traunce all over the golf hole looking for a ball in places where there is zero indication of a ball going. Perhaps if we had heard a knock of wood, and didn't see a ball, then I can see that, but when it's a quiet impact, the baseball has not hit the bat right? Anyway there has got to be some written clarification on the matter right?

 

I imagine two players calling in a rules official, who didn't see the shot, but I guess he could see the hole which helps., but the guy still has to make a call. I still say #1, but obviously I want the correct ruling for future play. Thanks.

Did you see the ball go into the hazard? Yes/No. You saw it head toward the hazard, but toward the hazard != in the hazard.

 

The sticky point in this is the tree blocking the view of the landing or, more aptly, having the virtual possibility of changing the balls direction absent of any proof. The ball could have hit the tree which is itself in the hazard, and bounced out. Hitting a tree in a hazard doesn't automatically make a ball "in a hazard", because ricochet. And "if you hear it hit a tree" isn't in the rules. ;)

 

If there were no tree, one could play the 'virtually certain' part of the rule that the ball would be in the hazard after searching the pininsula. But because of the tree, regardless of hearing anything or not, unless you find the ball actually in the hazard, it's lost.

 

--kC